nycolet's give it a try, that's my opinion, so how do we proceed if we reach a consensus
nyco?
debaclehas joined
MartinWhat do you mean? Introduce a 'call for help' section in the wiki and see if it gets filled. Maybe send a message to some ml so devs get aware of it.
nycothat's cool and all, but some select few complain to see newsletter work priori to making it public, but it does not seem to work the other way around
nycoI propose we co-write and co-schedule the tweets together
nycoI repeat, the commTeam is not (yet) a team
cooperation/collaboration needs continuous effort, but the outcome is far better
Martinnyco: Maybe pep. as it is his blog.
MartinAfaik
SouLnyco, problem with twitter is many people have access to it, I think SCAM has access. So I'm guessing pep. or somebody in SCAM did it
pep.Daniel and I did it
pep.nyco: it's original content, not sure what's wrong with that
Danielhas joined
pep.It's not like we retwitted the same thing
SouLpep., I think it is cool but he probably wanted to say to be in sync before tweeting, so everybody knows
nyconothing is wrong about OC, please re-read above
I am suprised that it is not OK that I tweet, but it is ok for some other persons
nycoif we are a team, then let's be a team
MattJpep. wasn't tweeting about the sprint over and over again
nycowe opened up the process of the newsletter workflow, because people asked for it
so be it
it's better now, and keeps improving, thanks to collective intelligence
let's do that as well for Twitter, please
MattJso I think that is the difference, not who or what is being tweeted
MattJBut I agree, some policies clearly need documenting
nycolike scheduling campaigns
MattJso that everyone agrees on what is acceptable and what is not, and what needs consensus and what does not
nycofor consistency and coherence
nycoand peer to peer trust
debaclehas left
nycowell, I beg to differ for this particular tweet, as this points to a personal blog
nycoI agree with the content though
MattJI don't see a problem with tweeting links to interesting XMPP articles - personal blogs or large organisations, as long as it is relevant
nycolegitimacy
nycoif it's coming from a community, it has higher image
nycoanyway, please share the tweets drafts
let's copywrite all together
nycofor example, why the hashtag #Stockholm ? :)
nycoand btw, blog post written and published, also tweeted, but still not in the newsletter: why?
nyconow it is, you're welcome
nyco"do what I tell you, but don't do as I do"
nycoyou all know this as community devs
nycothis is no code, but same stuff
nycowe should have fun doing all this, this must be exciting
we have to combine our strengths, for the better good of the community, and it shining bright outside
nycooh, btw, we are there again...
there is nothing wrong with repetition
if as a Twitter user, this is not your habit, then so be it, please unfollow, we don't need you, thanks
Twitter is a very specific platform, with with the good/best practices
indeed in a blog, you don't repeat posts
in LinkedIn, you don't double-post
on email, you don't twice the same content just paraphrased
but on Twitter you just do
because that's how Twitter works
it is a overly-massive continuous, high-speed flow
so you post twice or three times the same content
pep.> nyco> and btw, blog post written and published, also tweeted, but still not in the newsletter: why?
I still have a month for that
nycodone
nycoyou're welcome
nycoI mean it is not consistent
pep.nyco: I'm not sure what you're getting hot about. Also I don't have time to fight back right now sorry
nycoit is exactly NOT about fight
nycojust complainers doing exactly what they complain about from others
pep.I agree about getting some kind of policy up and running
nycoGood.
nycoSo, policy
nycolet's share idea, co-construct the scheduling of Twitter content
nycobecause the current process of the newsletter is clearly documented, and feedback is taken into account
pep.This article has nothing to do with the newsletter, yet
nycoI'd say, let someone come up with a tweet idea, let that person propose some content (copy-writing), let that person share it with the commTeam, let that person schedule the tweet to the next day
if people of the commTeam react and provide feedback (when time allows), then let's adapt
if people of the commTeam do not react, then the tweets is scheduled anyway
obviously, we trust each other we are each one of us benevolent
nyconow, it is is in the next newsletter, unless we reach a consensus not to include it
nycoso for the tweet contributor, we have one lead, showing example
nycoagain, a tweet is better when composed of text, link, hashtag, image
nycothat's for OC
nycofor curation, the "tweet with comment" can't be scheduled, afaik
nycoI have worked in teams producing content for social media, I am confident we can create a real, cool, fun space for collab here
nycoI speak for myself, but I never tweet immediately on @xmpp, I always schedule tweet, so the team can view it
pep.And you bark intensively when we ask why you're retweeting the same thing and tweet nonetheless :x
pep.That's my own opinion
MartinBTW, you got a new newsletter subscriber after I shared it to twtxt. IMHO as xmpp community you should also support some decentralised stuff like twtxt/mastodon/whatever 😃
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
pep.Martin: agreed
nycosaiyng some barks, when you bark yourself? not a good example
nycoyep, Mastodon, please someone do it
nycodo we have the LinkedIn page back?
MartinI'm always annoyed by the amount of twitter stuff shared in mucs as it sometimes forces you to three times reloading the website till it shows the content. They bully people not using a client.
nycolet's just make the commTeam a team
nycopep, seems like you don't read, or do not listen, or just don't care
repeating the way on Twitter, you are not the target, please unfollow, and don't bark again
pep.I am exactly the target
nycothe goal of using Twitter is to reach out
talking to internal members, that's done over our mailing list
MartinI am only active in twtxt, as I said I shared the newsletter and will continue. I don't know if you want to set it up for the xsf as it is the smallest microvolt niche I guess.
MartinI am only active in twtxt, as I said I shared the newsletter and will continue. I don't know if you want to set it up for the xsf as it is the smallest microblog niche I guess.
nycothat is what you assume, you are not the target on Twitter pep
pep.You can't market a protocol to users, at least not the way you're doing it, I'm not sure who else you're targeting
nycowhat in "reach out" don't you understand... "out"?
that out of our current, present, inner circle
you are already informed
nycoso many issues, errors, wrong assumptions
pep.As a developer, I am the target
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
emushas left
Daniel> who tweeted that? https://twitter.com/xmpp/status/1179671137506209792
I tweeted that on behalf of SCAM. The Stockholm Meetup was a scam event. The tweet has been reviewed by two members of SCAM. The blog post itself was run by multiple participants of the Meetup. Including again two members of SCAM
nyco> You can't market a protocol to users
it is not just about the protocol, it is not just about users
> at least not the way you're doing it
do you think you hold The Ultimate Truth?
I am re-using good and best practices, by experts that you are not, and you showed up to not know what you are talking about
> I'm not sure who else you're targeting
not sure yet either, let' have a conversation about that...
let's try: developers, users, decision makers, policy makers? what else can you think of?
nycothx Daniel for clarifying
emushas joined
Daniel> who tweeted that? https://twitter.com/xmpp/status/1179671137506209792
I tweeted that on behalf of SCAM. The Stockholm sprint was a scam event. The tweet has been reviewed by two members of SCAM. The blog post itself was run by multiple participants of the sprint. Including again two members of SCAM
nycoagain pep:
don't fight, just help, go in the same direction
don't complain, just please feedback benevolently
nycowe're not benevolent here
nycoit's a constant fight, a big mess
nycowe're a sum of individuals with differing agendas
nycocan we sync at least a bit, make some effort ?
emus> let's give it a try, that's my opinion, so how do we proceed if we reach a consensus
> ?
I think the best way is maybe to specifically go to developers or server maintainers. explain them the idea, and then put it in the next newsletter + first a small description of the idea
nycomany have asked me to open up the newsletter process, which I did, still lots of improvements to come
nycoemus good idea, can you please lead this
nyco?
emusnyco: ok
pep.I still wonder how many people need to ask you why you retweet things before we do something about it.
nycosee this example?
don't complain about this idea
just feedback
share concerns
build solutions
but don't block someone's initiative
that's quite villain, low level
pep.I also don't think "impressions" is the right metrics
nycothat is wrong
nycoand metrics are not only about impressions
pep.Maybe you can explain why
nycowhy would you focus on that?
emus> I also don't think "impressions" is the right metrics
are we talking about my call thing, or something else?
pep.emus: nope
emusok
nycoI have already explained, many times, happy to do it again when you are mentally available and open minded about it
nyco> I still wonder how many people need to ask you why you retweet things before we do something about it.
retweet what? what you talking about?
pep.Ok I think I'll give up for today and try another day. This discussion is only getting worse
nycoI don't retweet on behalf of @xmpp, are you freely accusing me publicly ?
nycogetting worse thanks to you pep
nycojust be positive
nycoit's not you job nor expertise obvioulsy
emus> I don't retweet on behalf of @xmpp, are you freely accusing me publicly ?
> getting worse thanks to you pep
> just be positive
> it's not you job nor expertise obvioulsy
Guys, whats going on with you.... chill down
nycoimpressions help you have the "brand" exposed in many screens
nycodoes not mean people see it, right
nyco> Guys, whats going on with you.... chill down
I'd love that, but the tone is wrong, always has been, does not seem to improve
nycoleaving the chat does not help
nycowhen I post metrics, it is not just the impressions
nycosee what I have analysed about the engagement, and what it means
nycobut what ever the numbers, the ratios, the growths... we are just not there, 1.5k followers we are just not seen
emus> but what ever the numbers, the ratios, the growths... we are just not there, 1.5k followers we are just not seen
let me help you a bit
but I dont see any reason for accusation, in no direction. but I`m here only since a few days
Daniel> but what ever the numbers, the ratios, the growths... we are just not there, 1.5k followers we are just not seen> if as > if as Twitter user, this is not your habit, then so be it, please unfollow, we don't need you, thanks
Those statements seem to contradict each other. But I'm not comm...
nycopffff... muahahaa
nycoplease explain
nycoanyway, I don't see individuals retweet @xmpp content very much
MattJ"we need growth" is the opposite sentiment to "unfollow us, we don't need you"
DanielAs a member of SCAM I target mostly tech people. I have some interesting in keeping a few of them
DanielIf comm wants growth that's fine. But please not at all cost
nycodon't look for what's wrong in statements, you will always find things
like anyone can do for each other
that is malevolent
rather seek what's meant in that
one unfollower is ok, growth is not about have one more followers, but many time, continuoulsy
MattJ1+1+1+1+1+... == many
nycoif commTeam wants growth, well I'm not sure we align around that
nycokeeping the techies in the loop, that's sound cool to me
but also not at the cost of other targets, assuming we have more, which has not been clarified
nycoMattJ what's your point?
I mean if we lose 5 members, I'm fine with that
but if we manage to pass the 10k followers over time (in two or three years), I'd be glad
nycothat needs a continuous effort, and a single person cannot hold the burden alone, that's why teaming is better
nycoI raise the question: SCAM and commTeam
what are the common stuff? what are the differences?
=> one thing in common is we are using the @xmpp Twitter account
I'd say Twitter is comm, it is about pushing info
DanielIf those five followers that you are willing to loose are the target audience of SCAM we do have a little bit of a conflict of interest here.
DanielNot saying you should stop
DanielBut please do keep scam interests in mind
nycolose, not loose
I am not willing to lose them, never said that, never wrote that, never intended that
I say it's ok to lose 5 if we get others 100 back
arnaudjhas left
nycoSCAM and commTeam have the same interests, techies are definitely a target group, not one objects to this known, obvious fact
MattJThen we should tweet a broad range of stuff that is relevant to all the different types of people we want to attract
nycoyes
nycoand how do we handle that?
nycoI call a meeting
nycowe should progress slowly but surely
nycoif techies is the target group we start with, then let's continue provide content for them, that's called nurturing
nycowe have very few OC, many curation
nycothat's the 99% of the newsletter and our @xmpp account
Danielnyco: you said multiple times that you don't care about the techies that get annoyed by repeating content.
But I'm going to assume that you didn't mean what you said. In that case everything is fine and we don't need to continue the debate
nycowe can definitely do OC, like once in a month a blog post, that's quite achievable
nycoDaniel still shutting me down abruptly like that, I'm fed up with explaining and justifying over again
we are dealing with 5 persons max here...
will we really care about 5 dudes?
MattJYes, if they are potential attendees at a sprint (which is composed of <10 people usually)
Daniel> Yes, if they are potential attendees at a sprint (which is composed of <10 people usually)
That
emusomg guys, this is a newsletter AND twitter... there is always infornation people are not interested in.... please stop fight so harsh (counts for both of you)
nycono, you don't have to use Twitter for those persons
you use different channels to reach them, "probably" XMPP
nycoMattJ and Daniel and pep. : do we agree as commTeam, SCAM and XSF members that we should reach out? that we should open up not only to techies? like users and decision makers for example?
nycoI want that as a proof: the landing page for users that has been started at the latest XMPP sprint in Stockholm
MartinFYI, I am no dev, maybe a techie (I am operating my own xmppd) and I am always interested to read stuff like sprint reports to see what might come soon. Even if I don't understand all details.
Otherwise I agree with emus. The discussion is too heated up. Both parties should pause, reflect and try to put themselves in the others shoes and come back later. You're in the same boat and want roughly the same although it might differ in some details.
MartinAlso here are people from different countries/cultures talking in english which is not the mother tongue for most of us. So it's easy to sound more harsh then intended or take something as offense which wasn't meant to be one.
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
arnaudjhas joined
nycoyou're right Martin
pep.nyco: as I said above, as a developer, not especially xmpp, I count myself as a target, and it's relevant for scam. So yes I care if we lose this kind of followers.
pep.Also, you seem to be confused about your target(s), maybe it would be good to define them before spamming twitter with the same repeated content
pep.I'm happy to help
nycono, you're not helping: I have asked many times who you think are the targets, I'll wait
(and you're not in the commTeam, but we'll listen)
pep.I'm obviously not saying I don't care about users, after all it's why I'm doing all I'm doing
nycoah, good
nycoso what type of users?
pep.I don't think @xmpp is for users though.
nyco(there, we finally start to co-construct)
pep.Here, I said it again
nyconoted, as it was years ago
pep.Well, users, of the protocol :)
nycoso what type of users?
pep.Developers.
nycoso, trying to follow you and translate/paraphrase:
protocol users are techies?
nycook, so we don't move, we don't reach out to different populations?
pep.Don't make me say what you're trying to say, get to the point
nycothat's exactly what I'm doing, you might not get it
nycoso please?
nycono meta-discussion :)
nyco@xmpp's target is only developers and techies to you pep ?
pep.That's not what I'm saying, please read again. You talk about not leaving other targets aside but you don't seem to have any
nycoplease explain again
nycodo not assume
nycono meta-discussion
nycoI've said targets I have proposed, happy to repeat:
users, decision makers, policy makers
pep.Explain what
nycono meta discussion
nycoplease explain your proposed targets for @xmpp
pep.I am proposing that we keep developers as a target
pep.Additionally to those you added, if you like
pep.And that requires not getting them to leave
nycogood, understood, at last you seem to be clear, thanks
nycowe keep developers, I agree
nycoconsensus on that, the two of us
nycomore targets: it is not if *I* like, I'd prefer the XSF to agree first, that means the commTeam comes up with the new targets and content for them
that may mean proposing this to the Board
nycowhen you send content on a given channel for two different targets, you lose some of both
when you have more than three targets, you lose potential for each
that's the way
nycofor now, we have only two channels: Twitter and the newsletter
pep.And I'd rather prioritize developers for the time being
nycowe cannot profile the newsletter subscribers, because Tinyletter does not provide that data
nycoI'd rather not
nycodevs are not paying nor funding anything
decision makers do
nycoso we can add more channels as we progress
nycolike Mastodon...
nycoif someone takes care of it
nycoI won't
pep.Devs are the ones making this protocol move forward
nycolike LinkedIn, we we can get it back
pep.I don't see any decision makers in sprints
nycodecision makers are funding for it
nyco:)
sprint are for developers, of course decision makers are not there
nycoplease organise a meetup or some kind of event for them, and then promote it, they will come
like on any digital channel
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
pep.Maybe decision makers should be kept to LinkedIn. And I'm happy to delay as long as we don't have access to it
pep.(Delay targeting them*)
emusI personally suggest to treat xmpp not as a dev only thing. I get the point, but already stateing this will exclude thinking past the horizon. as there is nothing which reviews the jabber network (with all parties), xmpp might give some credits to every side in general. and I wouldnt suggest to create more newsletters
nycodecision makers are on LinkedIn, right
developers may not be on LinkedIn, or don't use it that way, right
but Twitter is not reserved for devs, decision makers are also there, as well as users, and policy makers
so ou account should not frighten them
nycobtw, to @all, what are your opinions on the new section about specs?
we've done that for the last two months
MattJI like it
nycoso, links are not clickable this month, so they won't be counted on the click ratio
nycothis month, we have a normal size newsletter, last month we had a double newsletter (July, August)
so our click ratio was lower 1. because of the long size 2. because of the new sections
nycomy assumptions
nycoat the end of the month, we'll have enough data to inspect and analyse, and probably draw some conclusions and/or new hypothesis
nycoDaniel pep. SouL Martin emus
> btw, to @all, what are your opinions on the new section about specs?
> we've done that for the last two months
I believe no XMPP clients implements the "@all" thingy
so sorry for this...
MartinI liked it but I was irritated why the URLs were no links.
nycook, thx
pep.I'm personally ok with that section. But that might not be the case for all of our targets
pep.We should probably ask them
nycothx for your taste
what makes you assume that for our targets,
nyco?
pep.I don't assume anything, I don't know
pep.Hence my suggestion to ask
nycoa survey is definitely to be designed and scheduled some time in Nov or Dec
pep.K
nycothough, I'd prefer to make it generic on the newsletter, not only on one section
nycotwo days after sending it, we have: (no definitive numbers, still a rough precision that is worth observing)
emus> Daniel pep. SouL Martin emus
> I believe no XMPP clients implements the "@all" thingy
> so sorry for this...
I actually can only say that I like it (maybe conpress it a bit) but as I am not a developer it is not my section of interest. still I read it and think it is good for devs.
emusI migjt also think it is very good for non devs. Because people see that there is something like a standards process and yes, xmpp is a protocol of arrangeing interoperability in a decentral network. even if I dont know the details I understand something of the background. I think its very good now 😂
nycoas we grow in subscribers, the rates will decrease
I guess it is due to the success of a newsletter attracting people: some are just not interested, they just subscribe because it's cool, but actually never open it
nycohow to improve open rate?
I think by "optimising" the title/subject and the first sentences (previewed part in some email clients)
emusnyco: Do you also track the RS. feed
emusRSS
nycothat's why I asked for help this month
nycono, the RSS feed and the website are not tracked, afaik
nycoTinyletter track very few things
emusI will send you the translations this weekend. I just hear fron a few germans they dont read it because its english, what I personally didnt understood
emusok, I wouldnt go so harsh for the numbers now
nycoso on the newsletter title/subject, I suggest we try to drop "The" in "The XMPP Newsletter"
probably even shorted like "XMPP: ..."
emusI would put a logo to the top or so:
nycofor the click rate, we may improve the working and which words are clickable
nycoyes, images were inserted in this month newsletter for the first time
only two images for now
nycoemus
> I will send you the translations this weekend. I just hear fron a few germans they dont read it because its english, what I personally didnt understood
that's awesome! thanks a lot!
arnaudjhas left
nycowhere will you publish it? on jabber.de?
emusnyco: JabberES people says their website is shit, so I ask the jabber.de people to publish the spanish translations as well. once there is a proper website we can migrate
emusja, jabber.de
arnaudjhas joined
emusyes*
nycothat's gonna be Spaman or Gernish :)
Martin> the trends are the same, months after months:
> subscribers count growth
> open rate and click rate decrease
I block tracking pixels and my browser removes tracking parameters so I will be invisible. 😃
emushas left
emushas joined
emusSí sí
emusja ja
emusnyco: thunderbird also by default restricts remote content
arnaudjhas left
arnaudjhas joined
Danielhas left
Danielhas joined
DanielI think we are just on a agree to disagree on how to run Twitter. That's nothing personal. That's just how it is
arnaudjhas left
emusI for long time watched the xmpp newsletter. was wondering why they barely post stuff. now I saw like many posts which was more that the previous year (feeling). but was okay
As i see the discussing, I recommend going away from reposting eveything and rather create own posts. but not all with pictures.
emusabout the "Promoting open communication." If the communication should rather be a dev only thing, that doesnt really suit anymore.
Still, I like the expression!
emusnyco: the newsletter needs reCaptcha?
emusnyco: we might should mention that there is also the rss feed. people were asking about this
arnaudjhas joined
emusAh sorry, didnt saw the rss comes via planet jabber to me
pep.emus: what's the context for recaptcha?
emusI think they have a problem with google and dont see the necessarity to use Google there
emusI personally would also prefer to use something apart from google. but, I see the problem
emusI mean, mailchimp is also not the datas paradise I guess
emus😃
emusOne thing xmpp could communicate aswell in the twitter feed, or also the newsletters are the different mucs you have on different topics. that would be self-generated content
arnaudjhas left
arnaudjhas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
emushas left
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
debaclehas joined
emushas joined
nyco> I think we are just on a agree to disagree on how to run Twitter. That's nothing personal. That's just how it is
it is not about agreeing, it is about doing the right thing, experimenting, progressing
I don't tell you how you should use Twitter, but there are many things to say...
nyco> nyco: the newsletter needs reCaptcha?
I don't think so
nyco> nyco: we might should mention that there is also the rss feed. people were asking about this
oh really? some people still care? I'm glad
so yes, maybe a reminder can help
you create an entry in the draft newsletter, or link collection?
nyco> As i see the discussing, I recommend going away from reposting eveything and rather create own posts. but not all with pictures.
yes, retweeting is not optimal at all
retweeting with comments is much better
posting OC is definitely something good, but we don't have writers
what we can do is schedule tweets, pointing to our pages
I proposed that a few days ago
emusbut schedule it on a quarterly basis I suggest
nycothat a huge task, and I don't believe free scheduling tools allow that many tweets
nycoI suggest we start to work in a team, we produce like 4 tweets, that we schedule every Wednesday, for example
afphas left
afphas joined
emusBut I think that is too often. I would reduce it a bit. If people see a new twitter account they read the last tweets anyway if they are interested. Would risk spamming the feed. But you might better know
emusnyco what do you think about the captcha
nycowhat's the pb with the captcha?
emusGoogle
emustrakcing
emusOne question: MongooseIM 3.4.1 is out now with an important security upgrade, fixing a vulnerability that allowed any logged in user to crash the node with malicious stanza on certain (but popular) configurations.
emusThe link you provided there is: https://www.erlang-solutions.com/resources/download.html
emusIs that intentional?
nycowell, Tinyletter tracks emails as well
nycoyes, why?
nycotheir download page lists everything they provide
emusMaybe we should look for a different provider
emusPeople in XMPP care a lot more about privacy I think
pep.> nyco> it is not about agreeing, it is about doing the right thing
Then yes it is about agreeing on what the right thing is..
emusTechnical question: Message Fastening is NOT about acceleration, but stability? or hardening? Anyone of the germans can help to translate?
Danielemus, can i get the full sentence?
emusProposed
Message Fastening
Abstract: This specification defines a way for payloads on a message to be marked as being logically fastened to a previous message.
URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/fasten.html
emusI made to: Zusammenfassung: Diese Spezifikation definiert eine Möglichkeit, wie Nutzlasten in einer Nachricht als logisch an einer vorherigen Nachricht geknüpft werden können.
emusan eine*
Danielthat sounds alright
emuscool - then the first translation to German is done! 🙂 Good thing on the German unification day 😀
emusfyi nyco
emuslooking forward to drop it that it can go online. if some wants to cross-check feel free
emusno, please give me a hint so I can send it to you
emusY ahora yo trabajo por la translation en espanol! xD no worries, I will let cross check a native speaker. She hates XMPP (Monal 🤡️) but is happy to help
jcbrandhas left
emusDaniel, can then translate Message Fastening still with "Nachrichtenbeschleuning" ? (Keine Sorge kein Arbeitsbegriff nur einmal in Klammern für den unbedarften Leser)
emusAnd the first spanish draft is done 🙂
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
ldkjgoiwehas joined
debaclehas left
ldkjgoiwe> can then translate Message Fastening still with "Nachrichtenbeschleuning"
emus, it's fastening as in attaching, not as accelerating. so "anheften", not "beschleunigen".
LNJhas left
ldkjgoiweAnd you probably want to go with "Inhalte einer Nachricht" instead of "Nutzlasten einer Nachricht" for the summary 😉
XSF Communications Team - 2019-10-03