Monday, May 03, 2010
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[12:13:23] <Kev> 50 minutes
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[12:51:03] <MattJ> If I'm not around when the meeting starts, proceed without me, and I'll vote on-list
[12:51:10] <Kev> Ok.
[12:51:17] *MattJ has spent most of the last 48 hours unwell in bed :(
[12:51:40] <Kev> That sounds inefficient.
[12:51:51] <MattJ> Most
[12:52:20] <Fritzy> get well
[12:52:42] <Kev> That too.
[12:53:18] <MattJ> Thanks :)
[12:53:44] <MattJ> I'm recovering, had today been yesterday though I wouldn't have remembered the metting at all
[12:53:51] <MattJ> or the meeting
[12:54:24] <Fritzy> that's the thing about yesterday
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[13:02:52] <Kev> Impressive.
[13:04:13] <Kev> Ok then.
[13:04:20] <Kev> Is everyone sitting comfortably?
[13:04:23] <Kev> Then let's begin.
[13:04:47] <Kev> 1) Roll Call.
[13:05:00] <Kev> I see a Nathan, a Matt, and Ralph and a Kev.
[13:05:05] <Kev> 2) Agenda bashing.
[13:05:06] <MattJ> Present
[13:05:07] <Kev> Any?
[13:05:15] <MattJ> None
[13:05:35] <Fritzy> Well, is it reasonable to ask that we re-open pubsub collections?
[13:05:52] <Kev> We can discuss that at the end, yes.
[13:05:53] <Fritzy> 248
[13:05:56] <Fritzy> ok
[13:06:04] <Kev> Including a debate about what 're-open' means.
[13:06:09] <ralphm> :-)
[13:06:09] <Kev> 3) XEP-0060: Publish-Subscribe
Version: 1.13rc17
Diff: http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0060/diff/1.12/vs/1.13rc17

Accept as 1.13?
[13:06:18] <ralphm> I had a brief chat with stpeter about this
[13:06:32] <ralphm> My proposal about XEP-0060 is the following:
[13:07:24] <ralphm> We revert the changes regarding IQ notifications, the removed subids in subscription approvals and the removal of batch publishing.
[13:07:42] <Kev> IQ are already gone, aren't they?
[13:07:43] <ralphm> The first can be moved to a separate spec if desired by people.
[13:07:52] <ralphm> (they are in the online version)
[13:07:59] <Kev> rc17?
[13:08:13] <Kev> I remember them being gone from the last one we reviewed.
[13:08:16] <Fritzy> hm, I didn't see them in rc17
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[13:08:21] <ralphm> ok
[13:08:47] <stpeter> hmph, I didn't receive a calendar notification
[13:08:47] <ralphm> the removed subids in subscription approval would have issues with content-based subscriptions
[13:09:01] <ralphm> so I suggest we revert that change
[13:09:57] <ralphm> and regarding removing batch processing: it is not a backwards-compatible change, that I'm unsure about
[13:10:14] <ralphm> how it will play out with existing implementations, both client-side and service side
[13:10:31] <Kev> We can make non-backwards-compatible changes if we increment the namespace.
[13:10:33] <ralphm> so we need to look into that, if we really want to remove it, in a future version
[13:10:48] *ralphm kicks Kev
[13:10:54] <stpeter> I'm fine with reverting those removals pending further discussion -- we can do remove them in 1.14 if necessary (although we did have consensus on removing the batch stuff from last summer)
[13:11:23] <stpeter> really I just want to get 1.13 published and then we can have more discussions about the move controversial stuff
[13:11:28] <ralphm> I also actually use batch publishing in existing code
[13:11:35] <ralphm> what stpeter says
[13:11:49] <ralphm> the other changes are mostly cleanups
[13:11:56] <ralphm> of which we probably need another batch
[13:12:09] <Kev> If it gets 1.13 published, so we can discuss 1.14, I'll go with reverting a couple of changes.
[13:12:10] <ralphm> as I discovered through my thorough rereading
[13:12:41] <ralphm> also, I think we should not add more stuff to this spec
[13:12:45] <Kev> ralphm: so in summary, that's a -1 on this, with suggested changes after which you'll revote positively?
[13:13:02] <ralphm> no, I'm +1 with those changes
[13:13:09] <ralphm> I don't want to revote
[13:13:11] <Kev> Well, yes, I had a dream last night (yes, really), about splitting pubsub down to be trivial, and defining everything in bolt-on specs.
[13:13:22] <Kev> Ok, well, I'm +1 with the changed Ralph describes too.
[13:13:24] <ralphm> Kev: indeed
[13:13:27] <Kev> Fritzy / MattJ?
[13:13:34] <ralphm> most of the stuff added could have done in other specs
[13:13:45] <Fritzy> I'm +1
[13:13:45] <ralphm> and XEP-0060 allows many ways to bolt-on
[13:14:00] <stpeter> Kev: yes we've had that discussion too in the past :)
[13:14:02] <ralphm> most of it could be discoverable
[13:14:04] <MattJ> +1, with ralphm's considerations, I concede he is a pubsub expert more than myself :)
[13:14:12] <Fritzy> ralphm: I'd like to address how things get bolted on in 1.15
[13:14:15] <ralphm> and config fields can also be added in other specs
[13:14:18] <Kev> 4) Issue last calls?
Candidates are XEPs 234 (Jingle FT), 255 (Location Query), 260 and 261
(Jingle SOCKS5 and IBB).

[13:14:20] <ralphm> through the registrar
[13:14:30] <ralphm> (e.g. by not using pubsub# prefixes, but another)
[13:14:37] <Fritzy> right
[13:14:40] <Kev> I think we should either do the f/t block, or location, but not both at once.
[13:14:47] <Kev> Which do people think most important?
[13:14:56] <stpeter> I posted about the f/t stack on the technical review list earlier today: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/techreview/2010-May/000118.html
[13:14:58] <ralphm> FT
[13:15:06] <Fritzy> I think FT.
[13:15:16] <ralphm> let's get /that/ done, too, finally
[13:15:19] <MattJ> Kev, any reason not to do them together?
[13:15:30] <Kev> MattJ: we have a pseudo-policy of only doing 2 last calls togeth.r
[13:15:39] <stpeter> how about we give the technical review team two weeks to perform its own review (do location in the meantime) and then have LC on the FT stuff?
[13:15:40] <Kev> The f/t stack will be three.
[13:15:41] <MattJ> Ok, I wasn't aware of that one :)
[13:15:52] <MattJ> stpeter, sounds like a good plan
[13:16:00] <Kev> stpeter: I'm happy with that.
[13:16:06] <Kev> Fritzy / ralphm?
[13:16:11] <ralphm> yeah, that makes sense
[13:16:11] <stpeter> and I'll poke the techreview folks about getting busy :)
[13:16:23] <ralphm> who's that, right now?
[13:16:38] <stpeter> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Review_team
[13:16:42] <Fritzy> I'm fine with that.
[13:16:54] <ralphm> stpeter: ah thanks, I was looking at the XSF pages
[13:17:14] <Kev> 5) Proto-XEP: Message Carbons
http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/carbons.html
[13:17:35] <ralphm> I'm +1 on publishing
[13:17:39] <Kev> This requires server changes, wich is liable to slow adoption, but it seems the right way to be doing this.
[13:17:43] <Kev> +h
[13:17:49] <ralphm> and then have a seat for the battle
[13:17:55] *stpeter is on the phone now
[13:17:57] <MattJ> +1 to publishing
[13:18:03] <Kev> I don't think there's a battle, both specs are Joe's.
[13:18:10] <MattJ> This is something requested by a lot of people
[13:18:15] <ralphm> oh, but Joe isn't the only party ;-)
[13:18:37] <Kev> MattJ: right, this does Nice Things.
[13:18:39] <ralphm> I just read the standards thread on it
[13:18:50] <ralphm> I like the idea
[13:18:52] <Fritzy> +1 on this.
[13:19:01] <Kev> Ok, so.
[13:19:21] <Kev> 6) Re-open pubsub collections.
[13:19:25] <Kev> What does 're-open' mean?
[13:19:35] <ralphm> afaik, it has just been deferred
[13:19:37] <Fritzy> I'd just like to do a call for experience.
[13:19:39] <Fritzy> right
[13:19:49] <ralphm> as I've stated many times before
[13:19:52] <ralphm> it needs work
[13:19:54] <ralphm> a lot of
[13:20:01] <Fritzy> have you implemented it?
[13:20:07] <ralphm> partially, yes
[13:20:11] <Fritzy> DAG?
[13:20:12] <Kev> Fritzy: all it needs is for someone to make an edit for it to be un-deferred.
[13:20:35] <ralphm> partially because the spec has all these issues
[13:20:47] <ralphm> I can look up my list of concerns
[13:20:50] <Fritzy> ralphm: how about you and I discuss what the issues are and I'll put the issues into JIRA or whatever
[13:21:09] <stpeter> +1 to Fritzy taking over maintainership if he pleases
[13:21:19] <Fritzy> k, cool
[13:21:22] <Fritzy> I'm implementing it right now
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[13:21:43] <Fritzy> and it does need work... but I'd like to see it move, so I can start maintaining it.
[13:21:57] <ralphm> Fritzy: sure thing
[13:22:01] <Kev> Ok, so nothing to do, Fritzy to start editing.
[13:22:09] <Kev> 7) Date of next meeting.
[13:22:33] <Kev> I've got a week off next week, so I'd ideally like to skip a week, but can arrange to not be away that night if needed.
[13:22:55] <MattJ> I'm fine either way
[13:23:03] <Kev> Actually, thinking about it, I'm not sure I can make the following week.
[13:23:29] <Fritzy> but you can the following week?
[13:23:30] <Kev> So do you want to do next week, and if I'm here, I'm here, and if not someone else can chair it.
[13:24:17] <Kev> I'll take the silence as a yes.
[13:24:17] <ralphm> I like to just schedule every week
[13:24:21] <Kev> Ok.
[13:24:25] <Kev> Next week then.
[13:24:31] <Kev> If I'm not here, someone else can chair.
[13:24:34] <ralphm> sure
[13:24:35] <Kev> 8) AOB.
[13:24:39] <ralphm> none
[13:24:40] <Kev> None from me.
[13:24:42] <MattJ> None
[13:24:47] <Fritzy> none
[13:24:51] <ralphm> yay!
[13:24:51] <Kev> Excellent.
[13:25:01] <Kev> Thanks all, I'll send out minutes (probably tomorrow).
[13:25:02] <ralphm> 21 min. Not bad
[13:25:04] *Kev bangs le gavel.
[13:25:06] <MattJ> :)
[13:25:10] <ralphm> Fritzy: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/pubsub/2009-September/000332.html
[13:25:21] <ralphm> starts a thread that runs all the way through december
[13:25:26] <Fritzy> ralphm: thanks
[13:25:28] <MattJ> Kev, now le gavel is banged, at what time did you send the first message "50 minutes"?
[13:25:42] <Kev> Ten past 6, BST.
[13:25:42] <ralphm> Fritzy: most of my concerns are covered by my lenghty responses
[13:25:47] <MattJ> Thanks
[13:25:52] <Fritzy> ralphm: cool, I'll pour through it
[13:25:59] <Kev> [18:09:13] <Kev> 50 minutes
[13:26:14] <ralphm> Fritzy: good luck, let me know if you have any questions
[13:26:27] <ralphm> and then pick a slot to hash it all out
[13:26:47] <Fritzy> yeah, I'll be in touch on it for sure
[13:27:08] <ralphm> I'd prefer to get this over with the two of us, and then present it to the standards list
[13:31:46] <Fritzy> sounds good
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[15:03:57] <mlundblad> I missed the meeting, are these logged nowadays?
[15:04:38] <stpeter> yes
[15:04:53] <stpeter> http://xmpp.org:5290/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/council/100503/
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