Monday, August 16, 2010
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[12:10:17] <mlundblad> is there a meeting today?
[12:10:44] <stpeter> as I understand it, yes
[12:11:35] <stpeter> and hi :)
[12:11:44] <mlundblad> hi :)
[12:13:15] <mlundblad> Olivier Crête spoke about someone formalising the psuedo-udp ft stuff from google as a "standard" jingle spec. is this in the XSF's inbox?
[12:13:26] <stpeter> not in the inbox yet
[12:13:37] <stpeter> well
[12:14:10] <mlundblad> I have somewhat mixed feelings about that...
[12:14:19] <stpeter> there is http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-httpft.html
[12:15:54] <mlundblad> yeah
[12:16:26] <mlundblad> I was under the impression that this would meerly be a jingle transport spec.
[12:16:33] <stpeter> ah
[12:16:33] <mlundblad> not sure, though...
[12:16:34] <stpeter> that one
[12:16:45] <stpeter> yeah, there's been talk about documenting that, but no action
[12:17:36] <mlundblad> maybe I'm slanting towards thinking that might be a good idea, compared to ice-tcp
[12:17:49] <mlundblad> but maybe not...
[12:18:23] <stpeter> the http-over-pseudo-tcp-over-udp stuff is kind of crazy, but that doesn't mean it's bad :)
[12:20:03] <mlundblad> I think maybe the http stuff is overkill, though
[12:20:57] <mlundblad> another crazy thing though, psuedo-tcp-over-udp-over-a-tcp-relayed-turn-candidate...
[12:21:02] <mlundblad> yikes
[12:21:02] <stpeter> heehee
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[12:52:58] <ralphm> hi
[12:53:04] <Kev> Evening Ralph.
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[12:53:12] <stpeter> hiya
[12:53:13] <stpeter> brb
[12:53:22] <ralphm> warming up my foods
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[12:55:07] <stpeter> me too :)
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[13:03:22] <Kev> Right, Hello meetingtime
[13:03:29] <ralphm> Hooray!
[13:03:39] <Kev> Matt and Remko are both online, just getting them to join.
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[13:03:43] <stpeter> gosh I love these people who go on vacation for a month -- how is that possible?
[13:03:54] <Kev> Sounds nice doesn't it? :)
[13:03:58] <ralphm> stpeter: come live in europe
[13:04:12] <stpeter> I did take a two-week vacation back in 1994, that was quite relaxing :P
[13:04:44] <Kev> Right.
[13:04:46] <Kev> So.
[13:04:51] <Kev> Stop. Meeting time.
[13:04:58] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[13:05:07] <Kev> Fritzy, Kev, MattJ, ralphm, remko.
[13:05:27] *ralphm goes dmm, dm, dm, dm
[13:05:39] <Kev> 2) Agenda bashing anyone?
[13:05:54] <MattJ> Not here
[13:05:58] <remko> nope
[13:06:47] <Kev> Ok then.
[13:06:53] <Kev> 3) ProtoXEP - XMPP on Mobile Devices
http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mobile.html

Accept as Experimental?
[13:07:05] <ralphm> yes, interesting matter
[13:07:12] <remko> indeed
[13:07:18] <Kev> I'm not objecting.
[13:07:50] <Kev> Fritzy / Matt?
[13:08:05] <Kev> Commenting on list's fine if you've not read it.
[13:08:05] <MattJ> No objection here, I'm glad someone finally wrote it up :)
[13:09:18] <stpeter> yep, that looks helpful
[13:09:32] <stpeter> plus I love it when someone other than me writes specs :)
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[13:09:39] <MattJ> :)
[13:09:47] <Kev> stpeter: Well, Matt and I have a big stack waiting for limelight :)
[13:09:57] <ralphm> MattJ: how's that my-client-doesn't-support-SIFT-but-I-still-want-it feature?
[13:10:32] <MattJ> ralphm, which was that?
[13:10:41] <MattJ> or you mean the intelligent presence buffering?
[13:11:08] <ralphm> yeah, but such that I can tell my server to do it for a particular resource. Like 'Maemo'
[13:11:36] <MattJ> or a given disco identity? :)
[13:11:42] <ralphm> sure!
[13:11:51] <Kev> Ok, I think Fritzy's gone AFK, so moving on.
[13:12:02] <Kev> 4) ProtoXEP - Digital Signatures in XMPP
http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dsig.html

Accept as Experimental?
[13:12:18] <ralphm> +1, I'm curious about the TBDs
[13:12:21] <remko> no objection
[13:13:09] <Kev> Heh, you like it more than I do.
[13:13:22] <MattJ> Why is it necessary to encode the contents like that?
[13:13:43] <Kev> I'm not convinced about signed messages being illegible to non-signing clients - i.e. you could never send signed messages to a MUC.
[13:13:44] <MattJ> Even e2e had some normalization routines, presumably for the same reasons
[13:13:55] <stpeter> I wonder if anyone will sign their XMPP stanzas, given that precious few seem to sign their email messages and that technology has been around for a long time
[13:14:08] <Kev> stpeter: Well, in email I can still read your mails.
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[13:14:16] <Kev> Even though I don't process and verify the signatures.
[13:14:22] <ralphm> MattJ: from what I've been told, normalization like in XMLSig is quite horrible
[13:14:22] <Kev> That's not true here.
[13:14:29] <remko> kev: indeed
[13:14:46] <remko> kev: that doesn't really sound very good
[13:14:54] *stpeter nods
[13:15:10] <remko> it's probably a workaround for the whitespace etc.
[13:15:18] <remko> but still, there shoudl be a better one
[13:15:41] <MattJ> ralphm, e2e did seem to manage, minus one case in the XEP that suggested stripping whitespace in a given instance was enough normalization
[13:15:41] <Kev> Well, I quite like the copy-and-sign approach, where you encode, like this, what you signed so it's there for verifying clients, and other clients get it in plaintext.
[13:16:06] <Kev> But I'm not winning this argument with Kurt, so I'm abstaining on this non-vote.
[13:16:37] <stpeter> IMHO it's early days for signing
[13:16:46] <stpeter> heck, it's still early days for encryption!
[13:17:02] <remko> stpeter: true
[13:17:03] <Kev> So, where are we?
[13:17:06] <ralphm> Well, I'm ok with it being a XEP, not necessarily thinking this is the best approach.
[13:17:12] <Kev> Remko and Ralph are +1, Matt was ...?
[13:17:18] <Kev> and Fritzy's AFK :)
[13:17:52] <MattJ> +1 to publishing
[13:18:09] <Kev> That actually raises an interesting question - if a Council member is in the room, but AFK, for a meeting, does that count as present?
[13:18:18] <MattJ> But I 1) think it needs some discussion going forward 2) don't think it's going to see implementations like this
[13:18:33] <remko> i agree with matt
[13:18:37] <stpeter> if a tree falls in the forest...
[13:18:38] <ralphm> Kev: does that actually matter?
[13:18:57] *stpeter nods to MattJ
[13:19:02] <Kev> ralphm: Well, stats are kept on people's voting and attendance history, so people can do sensible things with voting in Sept/Oct.
[13:19:19] <Kev> Whether people use them is another matter, but they're there.
[13:19:23] <Kev> Anyway.
[13:19:27] <MattJ> I could easily leave my client idle here 24/7 then :)
[13:19:32] <Kev> MattJ: Right.
[13:19:33] <Kev> 5) Winding down Council.
Anything we want/need to do before the end of term?
[13:19:44] <Kev> Peter'd like us to get some file transfer headway made.
[13:19:47] <MattJ> I've nothing to say that we didn't discuss on list
[13:19:57] <MattJ> Archiving, etc.
[13:20:08] <Kev> Yes, well, I'm happy to push my specs out if you are yours :)
[13:20:11] <ralphm> file transfer would be nice indeed
[13:20:12] <MattJ> FWIW I have some comments on Jingle (it's a pain to implement)
[13:20:30] <ralphm> MattJ: in general?
[13:20:30] <stpeter> Kev: well, given that I promised to review the reviews of file transfer, I have action items I can take
[13:20:40] <Kev> stpeter: Jolly good, nothing for me to do yet, then.
[13:20:42] <Kev> 7) Date of next meeting.
[13:20:55] <Kev> Next Monday, assuming we have things to discuss?
[13:21:00] <ralphm> yes
[13:21:12] <stpeter> :)
[13:21:18] <MattJ> ralphm, well I'm implementing Jingle File Transfer, the main Jingle spec defines a lot of things vaguely that aren't followed up on in JFT
[13:21:18] <remko> +1
[13:21:26] <Kev> 8) Any other business?
[13:21:39] <MattJ> The spec was clearly split into signalling/RTP at some point, the split wasn't quite right IMHO
[13:22:01] <stpeter> MattJ: "the spec" = 166?
[13:22:07] <ralphm> MattJ: ah, so the specs are unclear? Not necessarily bad?
[13:22:13] <MattJ> stpeter, yes
[13:22:27] <MattJ> ralphm, I think (hope) mostly just unclear
[13:22:29] <stpeter> Kev: Council members need to decide if they are going to stand for consideration again, I suppose
[13:22:44] <MattJ> For example...
[13:22:47] <MattJ> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0166.html#session-negotiation
[13:22:56] <MattJ> This section has no protocol description at all
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[13:23:08] <Kev> stpeter: I'll be seeing if there are enough sensible candidates other than me, and deciding then.
[13:23:12] <MattJ> Yet negotiation is surely the most significant part of Jingle :)
[13:23:27] <stpeter> MattJ: heh
[13:23:29] <Kev> I do think I've been on Council a while, and people should step down after that long if there are sensible replacements.
[13:23:50] <stpeter> MattJ: in general, I think we've been defining Jingle via examples such as XEP-0167
[13:24:01] <Kev> Ok, I'm taking this as no more other more business.
[13:24:02] <MattJ> Kev, turning that around... isn't that up to the members to decide?
[13:24:08] <stpeter> MattJ: I "discovered" some things about Jingle by writing the file transfer specs
[13:24:28] <remko> i'm steppnig down, because of lack of time to focus appropriately
[13:24:42] <MattJ> stpeter, as one of the few developers that doesn't develop implementations purely by reading examples, that's awkward :)
[13:24:51] <Kev> MattJ: possibly.
[13:25:10] <Kev> Right, I'll write up some minutes, probably tomorrow.
[13:25:14] <Kev> Thanks all.
[13:25:14] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[13:25:17] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[13:25:18] <ralphm> MattJ: hehe. Maybe you can provide some examples to be added to the spec?
[13:25:27] <stpeter> MattJ: by examples I meant "RTP is one example of how we'd use Jingle, but file transfer is another example / use case"
[13:25:39] <MattJ> ralphm, I wish I could, but I literally have no idea what that part of the protocol is meant to be like
[13:25:52] <stpeter> MattJ: the same is true on the transport side (UDP, TCP, etc.)
[13:25:56] <ralphm> MattJ: I actually think this part is intentionally vague
[13:26:09] <MattJ> 166 describes all these commands, content-add, content-replace, etc... without saying how to use them or what they mean
[13:26:18] <MattJ> Ok, if it's intentionally vague then it should say so
[13:26:22] <stpeter> it is intentionally vague, but as we have more applications we could strengthen the core spec
[13:26:31] <MattJ> and the file transfer XEP should explicitly say what each command means
[13:26:36] <MattJ> But it doesn't
[13:27:17] <MattJ> Meaning at the moment I am basically implementing by 1) example 2) interop with Gajim's new code
[13:27:17] <mlundblad> two-week vacation?
[13:27:36] <mlundblad> I had a short vacation this year, only four weeks :D
[13:27:53] <ralphm> stpeter: for most of these things, doesn't the actual profile decide the protocol bits going in these actions?
[13:28:01] <stpeter> ralphm: yes
[13:28:14] <stpeter> ralphm: although I agree with Matthew that we could be clearer in 166
[13:28:19] <stpeter> mlundblad: :P
[13:28:24] <ralphm> stpeter: I'm unsure how to then make it more clear except by writing a fictional profil
[13:28:28] <ralphm> e
[13:28:33] <stpeter> right
[13:28:39] <stpeter> that's how I learned :)
[13:28:46] <ralphm> didn't we try that?
[13:28:51] <stpeter> it's like writing a novel, the characters take on a life of their own :)
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[13:29:39] <MattJ> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0234.html doesn't mention any of the Jingle commands
[13:29:52] <ralphm> XEP-0208, I think
[13:30:06] <MattJ> I take it back... it mentions transport-info
[13:30:14] <MattJ> and then links to an example that uses session-info
[13:30:31] <stpeter> ok those are all good points
[13:30:45] <MattJ> The box under example 1
[13:30:52] <stpeter> in part file transfer is much simpler than voice and video, so it has no need for many of the Jingle commands
[13:31:00] <stpeter> however
[13:31:05] <mlundblad> transport-replace
[13:31:07] <stpeter> I think it would be good to say that
[13:31:15] <mlundblad> but that is in s5b, I think
[13:31:41] <stpeter> Kev: do we have definitive feedback on the message threads XEP?
[13:32:00] <MattJ> stpeter, I agree... which is why I suggested the split in the XEPs was in the wrong place
[13:32:00] <stpeter> Kev: perhaps we need to chat about that and figure out what changes are needed
[13:32:02] <Kev> We've got feedback from Matt, does that count?
[13:32:33] <ralphm> sure it does
[13:32:53] <Kev> MattJ: You're the definitive voice of XMPP. Congratulations :)
[13:32:57] <MattJ> \o/
[13:32:59] <stpeter> heehee
[13:33:21] <stpeter> the other point about file transfer was that we want to get feedback from the GSoC implementers
[13:33:27] <MattJ> Now if only I could finish this overdue work so I can catch up with other spec reviews
[13:33:58] <stpeter> MattJ: yeah, understood
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[13:34:47] <stpeter> oh and I have more XMPP WG feedback to address, too
[13:34:50] <stpeter> fun
[13:35:24] <Kev> stpeter: I'm happy to have a work through threads with you if you like, but not tonight.
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[13:35:33] <stpeter> at least I'm adding acknowledgements so that all you helpful reviewers receive some credit
[13:35:40] <Kev> Ta muchly.
[13:35:44] <Kev> My name in lights :)
[13:35:50] <stpeter> Kev: sure, perhaps tomorrow or Wednesday or whatever
[13:35:50] <Kev> Right, AFK.
[13:35:57] <stpeter> Mondays can be crazy, I know :)
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[13:40:14] <Fritzy> Mondays suck.
[13:40:19] <stpeter> heh
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[13:49:55] <stpeter> MattJ: thanks for your helpful feedback -- I sense some revisions on the way
[13:50:17] <MattJ> You're welcome :)
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