Tuesday, November 02, 2010
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:54:20] <stpeter> greetings!@
[15:54:28] <MattJ> Greetings!
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[15:54:35] <MattJ> Back in 6.5 minutes :)
[15:54:51] <stpeter> I told linuxwolf about the address for this room, I think he was still going to the old one :)
[15:55:33] <Kev> I checked with Ralph earlier that he'd be here, and Fritzy confirmed on-list, so I think we'll be good to go.
[15:55:51] <stpeter> rock'n'roll
[15:55:58] <linuxwolf> at least this week (-:
[15:56:33] <Kev> Yes, I'm happy with Wednesdays in general, Tuesday was just a little preferable.
[15:56:54] <linuxwolf> yeah, it's also preferred around my office for sprint kick-offs
[15:57:21] <linuxwolf> and since I must be at one, and should be all four…yeah, it's a long long day (-:
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[15:58:15] <Kev> One to go.
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[15:58:40] <stpeter> ah, I see a left-handed emoticon, linuxwolf must be here ;-)
[15:58:46] <linuxwolf> d-:
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[15:59:07] <stpeter> Swift shows icons as primary and names as secondary
[15:59:21] <MattJ> Present
[15:59:28] <ralphm> (-8
[15:59:30] <Kev> Where? Gimme.
[15:59:38] <Fritzy> yay for presents!
[15:59:39] <MattJ> You'll have to wait :)
[15:59:46] *stpeter pours some tea and starts up some Bach
[15:59:55] <Fritzy> oh, good idea
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[16:00:06] <MattJ> I wish I'd recorded stpeter at the 2008 Brussels summit saying "Presence for everyone"
[16:00:16] <stpeter> haha, did I say that?
[16:00:22] <Fritzy> I thought that was dwd.
[16:00:24] <MattJ> You did
[16:00:37] <linuxwolf> heh
[16:00:52] <MattJ> You wrote it on the board too, presents for bots and for components, and for servers :)
[16:01:01] <Kev> Use your powers only for good, linuxwolf.
[16:01:09] <Fritzy> MattJ: that was Cridland.
[16:01:10] <Fritzy> I was there.
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[16:01:28] <Kev> Ok, the clock turns 4.
[16:01:30] <MattJ> I've never confused stpeter with dwd before :)
[16:01:31] <linuxwolf> ok, focus
[16:01:36] <stpeter> :)
[16:01:41] <Kev> Welcome Council of '10-'11.
[16:01:46] <Fritzy> haha, ok. Well, maybe Peter was in on it too. :)
[16:01:56] <MattJ> Welcome Kev
[16:01:58] <Kev> Agendaness:
[16:02:01] <Kev> 1) Roll call
[16:02:04] <Kev> All here.
[16:02:09] <Kev> 2) Agenda bashing.
[16:02:10] <Kev> Any?
[16:02:13] <Kev> Actually.
[16:02:15] <Kev> That should be 3)
[16:02:18] <Kev> 2) Selecting a chair.
[16:02:32] <stpeter> don't we start at zero? :P
[16:02:37] <Fritzy> Do you like being chair, Kev?
[16:02:38] <ralphm> 0. Hello!
[16:02:45] <linuxwolf> +1 for Kev
[16:02:48] <ralphm> +1
[16:02:49] <Fritzy> Does anyone else want a shot?
[16:03:01] <Kev> Fritzy: I like 30minute meetings, and I don't mind doing it, so the two go quite well.
[16:03:04] <linuxwolf> no thanks, I run enough meetings (-:
[16:03:08] <MattJ> If Kev's happy for chair, I'm +1
[16:03:12] <Fritzy> +1 for Kev
[16:03:21] <Kev> Ta.
[16:03:22] <MattJ> Unanimous, congratulations Kev :)
[16:03:29] <Kev> 3) Agenda bashing?
[16:03:32] <MattJ> for taking the job nobody else wants
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[16:03:42] <MattJ> None here
[16:03:58] <Kev> Kurt wants me to mention 258, so I'll do that later.
[16:04:26] <Kev> 4) Council habits and other items of clothing.
[16:04:32] *stpeter laughs
[16:04:40] <Fritzy> A pun.
[16:04:41] <linuxwolf> heh
[16:04:52] <Kev> A reminder to those who were here last year, and a re-introduction for Matt.
[16:05:19] <Kev> Largely these are in place so I can have my hating-meetings-going-over-30-minutes streak satisfied.
[16:05:44] <Kev> * It's nice for people to turn up to meetings, or let me know if you're not
[16:05:57] <Kev> * I don't think anyone has a problem with voting on-list instead of in-MUC.
[16:07:09] <Kev> * We have voting periods these days, instead of chasing Council members for months to read the specs, so if you've not objected within a fortnight of a meeting with a motion to Experimental, you'll be assumed to not have objected, and if you don't vote within a fortnight of a meeting with a vote, you'll be DNV, and marked as such (and your vote is counted as +-0.
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[16:07:46] <Kev> I think that's largely it, anyone else?
[16:07:51] <ralphm> fortunately all the /council pages are MIAA
[16:07:52] <ralphm> -A
[16:08:00] <stpeter> and do subscribe to http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-council.ics
[16:08:02] <MattJ> +un?
[16:08:30] <Kev> ralphm: Someone on commteam should be chased.
[16:08:33] <stpeter> we have http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/the-xsf-council/
[16:08:50] <Kev> I need the redirect list to be given to me so I can make all the old URLs work.
[16:08:54] <stpeter> so that might need to be updated
[16:08:55] <Kev> MattJ: hmm?
[16:08:58] <stpeter> Kev: indeed
[16:09:19] <stpeter> ^ unfortunately, not fortunately
[16:09:21] <MattJ> Kev, nothing, ralphm said "fortunately" - it was a sarcasm or typo I think, all the same to me :)
[16:09:26] <Kev> Ah.
[16:09:30] <Kev> Right.
[16:09:38] <ralphm> stpeter: I mean all of the old pages. Yes, I misplaced my sarcasmicon
[16:09:42] <Kev> 5) Inviting authors.
[16:10:05] <ralphm> good idea
[16:10:16] <Kev> Yes, so, there was a proposal at the end of last term that authors of XEPs being considered for advancement, or protoXEPs for acceptance, should be invited to the relevant meetings.
[16:10:36] <Fritzy> Yeah, I like that.
[16:10:38] <Kev> I think this is broadly a good idea.
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[16:10:45] <MattJ> +1
[16:10:56] <MattJ> Whose job is it? :)
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[16:11:07] <Kev> We started doing this last year, and the authors were largely either people who attend anyway, or replied saying 'sorry, can't make it', but I'm happy to start trying again.
[16:11:18] <Kev> MattJ: I'm delighted if someone else wants to, otherwise I'll assume it's mine.
[16:11:21] <stpeter> it might also help to forward the agenda to standards@
[16:11:28] <linuxwolf> +1
[16:11:38] <Kev> Right, I was going to make agendas point 6
[16:11:43] <Kev> Let's do that now :)
[16:11:43] <stpeter> if an author follows the list or knows that their spec is up for discussion, they might join the meeting
[16:11:47] <Kev> 6) Agendas
[16:11:51] <MattJ> Since the council list isn't open to subscribers (afaik) that would make sense
[16:12:14] <stpeter> council is open to subscribers
[16:12:17] <Kev> Last year I got into the habit of sending agendas out on Monday morning on the day of a meeting, by mail to council@.
[16:12:20] <stpeter> but few subscribe
[16:12:43] <Kev> I've done the agenda by website in the past and consider it a nuisance, but we can go back to doing that if people want.
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[16:12:57] <Fritzy> email is fine with me
[16:12:59] <bear> stpeter - after your meeting can I ask if/how I can make changes to the calendar
[16:13:03] <MattJ> I don't mind either way as long as I can read it :)
[16:13:18] <Kev> So which bits of agendaness would people like changed?
[16:13:29] <Kev> Sending it to standards@ is fine by me, I do that with the minutes anyway.
[16:13:58] <Fritzy> email to standards or council is fine with me.
[16:14:09] <Fritzy> standards might be better for transparency
[16:14:26] <Kev> No-one's complained about the agenda going out on the morning of the meeting, does this bother anyone?
[16:14:28] <MattJ> The only issue I have with agendas is that sometimes I don't know well enough in advance what's to be on them :)
[16:14:33] <MattJ> Ha
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[16:14:56] <stpeter> bear: sure thing, just edit the relevant events.xml file (they are sprinkled thoughout the repository), check in your changes, and run calgen.py on athena at /home/xsf/xmpp/
[16:14:59] <Kev> Fritzy: Well, it's transparent if it's on council@, as that's archived and public subscribable, but I don't mind forwarding to standards@ for general interest.
[16:14:59] <linuxwolf> sorry guys…something odd is happening with my server today
[16:15:03] <MattJ> In general it's not an issue, and I appreciate it's hard to keep on top of
[16:15:09] <Kev> linuxwolf: Can't trust those server guys.
[16:15:14] <MattJ> Definitely not
[16:15:39] <bear> i'll have to get with the infra team later to be added to git list
[16:15:40] <Kev> The reason it got to Mondays was that Peter started doing Radar to make my life easier, then Peter got busy and that got updated later, so I sent agendas later.
[16:16:06] <Kev> Now that I'm sorting out agendas based on the XEP Editor emails Peter sends out again, I can make them earlier.
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[16:16:19] <stpeter> http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar is handy
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[16:16:31] <ralphm> well, if we are moving to Wednesday, monday should be fine
[16:16:32] <stpeter> when it's updated :)
[16:16:35] <Kev> So I'll endeavour to continue sending them out Monday morning, for the meetings later in the week.
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[16:16:42] <stpeter> Kev: WFM!
[16:16:51] <Chris Newton> linuxwolf, I never trust those server guys either.
[16:17:10] <MattJ> stpeter, when it's up to date radar is handy :)
[16:17:14] <Kev> bear: Talk to me later. I'll sort it out.
[16:17:20] <MattJ> Kev, thanks - Monday works
[16:17:26] <Fritzy> sudo corrupts, root corrupts absolutely.
[16:17:30] <linuxwolf> heh
[16:17:30] <stpeter> MattJ: yeah, whn
[16:17:50] <Fritzy> why do you keep talking to bear? I don't see him saying *anything*
[16:17:51] <Kev> Ok, so, agenda-wise, I'll send to standards@ as well, send it earlier relatively, and copy in XEP authors.
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[16:18:12] <stpeter> most excellent
[16:18:19] <Fritzy> gravy
[16:18:31] <MattJ> All good
[16:18:32] <Kev> 7) XEP-0258 (labels)
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[16:19:03] <Kev> Kurt'd like me to give a heads up that he's approaching ready with this, is going to tidy it up, encourage implementors to update to the latest, and then will be requesting a last call.
[16:19:14] <linuxwolf> /nod
[16:19:34] <ralphm> yay
[16:19:37] <MattJ> Excellent
[16:19:42] <linuxwolf> hopefully this incarnation sticks
[16:19:52] <Kev> I had a discussion with him about reverting to the :0 version, with flat catalogues etc because the current version is more complex, but he persuaded me that it needs a hierachy.
[16:19:54] <MattJ> I have an implementation I can bring up to date then
[16:20:05] <Fritzy> you do?
[16:20:20] <dwd> linuxwolf, I think so. Given Kurt maintains ours, Kev maintains Swift's, and I maintain Gajim's, we can manage to bring those up to date.
[16:20:23] <MattJ> Fritzy, I do, mostly :)
[16:20:40] <Kev> 8) Date of next meeting.
[16:20:41] <linuxwolf> plus, it helps that Kurt works directly with agencies that cannot be named
[16:20:41] <dwd> Fritzy, Interop tested no less.
[16:21:01] <Kev> I'll propose Wednesdays (starting in 8 days) at 4pm UK, and see how much Matt dislikes it.
[16:21:19] <MattJ> You need to disambiguate "Matt" now Kev :)
[16:21:23] <dwd> linuxwolf, Including one that has called me a subversive. :-)
[16:21:27] <linuxwolf> you'll need to clarify which "Matt" (-:
[16:21:27] <Kev> Bother.
[16:21:47] <stpeter> heh
[16:21:49] <Kev> MW.
[16:21:50] <MattJ> I'll survive for now
[16:21:54] <MattJ> (at 4pm)
[16:21:56] <linuxwolf> dwd: I thought you liked being called a subversive? (-:
[16:21:59] <ralphm> WFM
[16:22:08] <linuxwolf> +1
[16:22:13] <Fritzy> +1 for Wednesdays 1600UTC
[16:22:28] <Kev> Great, so next meeting'll be a week tomorrow.
[16:22:42] <MattJ> Perfect
[16:22:52] <Kev> Who wants responsibility for updating the calendar?
[16:23:00] <MattJ> I can do it
[16:23:03] <Kev> Excellent.
[16:23:30] <Kev> Oh, and minute writing. I'm happy to continue doing that, but if someone else is dying to do so I don't mind.
[16:23:35] <stpeter> thanks, Matthew!
[16:23:49] <Kev> No, I didn't think so :)
[16:23:56] <MattJ> Heh
[16:23:56] <stpeter> :P
[16:24:02] <Kev> 9) Any other business?
[16:24:32] <Fritzy> nossir
[16:24:44] <MattJ> ralphm, what's FOSDEM status?
[16:25:02] <stpeter> Kev: we might want to figure out better ways of keeping the Radar page up to date
[16:25:03] <linuxwolf> when's the IETF meeting? Next week?
[16:25:15] <Kev> linuxwolf: Yes.
[16:25:18] <stpeter> linuxwolf: yes, but no XMPP WG session
[16:25:32] <dwd> Also, is it worth raising my interop suggestion?
[16:25:34] <linuxwolf> no, but I'm paying attention to kitten and hybi
[16:25:37] <stpeter> however, I'll be presenting about internationalized JIDs at the PRECIS WG session
[16:25:53] <bear> i need to remember hybi wg session next week
[16:25:56] <Kev> stpeter: Do you have something to suggest? Finding a volunteer to track council@ and update it sound s a good idea.
[16:26:08] <linuxwolf> bear: make sure you have your flamesuit
[16:26:16] <ralphm> we have a room
[16:26:20] <ralphm> on saturday
[16:26:22] *Fritzy wonders why he can't see bear's messages.
[16:26:29] <stpeter> Kev: something to discuss
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[16:26:52] <Kev> I'd suggest we mail members@ asking for a volunteer to track council@ and stardards@ and update it accordingly.
[16:27:00] <ralphm> I'll draft a Call for presentations soonish
[16:27:18] <MattJ> Fritzy, bear: We'll debug after the meeting - since all 3 servers involved are Prosody :)
[16:27:19] <stpeter> oh, and I've sourced a meeting room in Brussels for the Summit -- it's not in the center of town, but it's free and it should have good Internet connectivity since it's at a Cisco location
[16:27:28] <bear> ok
[16:27:31] <Kev> stpeter: Excellent.
[16:27:35] <Kev> ralphm: Excellent, thanks.
[16:27:45] <Kev> (And thanks for stpeter too, didn't mean to exclude)
[16:28:00] <Kev> So dwd's Plan For World Domination^w^w^w^wInterop suggestion.
[16:28:04] <MattJ> stpeter, wonderful, thanks
[16:28:06] <Kev> Anything worth discussing about that?
[16:28:24] <MattJ> I think we just need to drum up support
[16:28:31] <Kev> Other than that I'm strongly in favour of just about everything he suggested.
[16:28:34] <stpeter> about interop? I'm behind on the thread I started (as usual!)
[16:28:39] <MattJ> I see tasks for iteam and commteam
[16:28:39] <Kev> stpeter: Summary:
[16:28:41] <bear> my personal suggestion would be to just start doing it, make it visible and start letting people find their own way in
[16:29:12] <Kev> First week in December, do it online, XSF iteam set up DNS and certs, have a mailing list for people, and try and prove basic interop.
[16:29:30] <Kev> bear: It's a fine suggestion, but I think it's worth getting the message out strongly and soon that XMPP interop works just fine.
[16:29:54] <Kev> So I think it's worth putting the effort in to make an interop test work in the first instance.
[16:29:55] <bear> kev, completely agree - I was just saying that over planning may hinder uptake
[16:30:03] <MattJ> Agreed, a week of focus would be worth it
[16:30:07] <linuxwolf> but we need some planning
[16:30:12] <bear> I'm all for getting the interop news front and center
[16:30:20] <linuxwolf> Oscon was too much anarchy
[16:30:28] <dwd> Oh, and to repeat here, Isode providing CA software is confirmed, if wanted.
[16:30:34] <bear> oscon was also the first time we did interop of any serious nature
[16:31:03] <Kev> dwd: with one of my non-Isode hats on, that sounds good to the iteam :)
[16:31:04] <bear> so the first week of december's interop will be just as messy until CA and DNS issues are sorted out
[16:31:06] <stpeter> bear: we did interop for Jingle at FOSDEM a few years ago and that went well, plus lots of basic interop (especially s2s) at the very first Summit
[16:31:37] <bear> oscon was hampered by dns, network and not having server folks on hand (I think)
[16:31:37] <Kev> I'm happy for the iteam to take on DNS and CA stuffs and make sure that works.
[16:32:11] <dwd> The main problem with the FOSDEM Jingle Thingle was lack of published results.
[16:32:11] <Kev> If we get a list of the servers that'll be taking part.
[16:32:45] <Kev> So I suggest that Board discuss this tomorrow, that they agree that it's a jolly good idea, and that the wheels get set in motion.
[16:32:48] <bear> I have the domain xmpptest.com if you think it would be useful - I can move it to the xsf
[16:32:58] <stpeter> OT: I love it when fellow Isoders disagree within the XMPP WG -- such a free-spirited corporate culture! ;-)
[16:33:02] <Kev> We've just hit 30mins, so I'm reached meeting-discomfort :)
[16:33:06] <stpeter> heh
[16:33:15] <Kev> s/I'm/I've/
[16:33:19] <linuxwolf> hehe
[16:33:20] <stpeter> ok we can discuss the interop stuff in more detail next meeting, right?
[16:33:26] <Fritzy> s/I've/We've/g
[16:33:34] <Kev> Which reminds me that I need to submit http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/xep-correct.html sometime.
[16:33:50] <Kev> Yes, and bear's promised to get Board to agree to it tomorrow, so all is good :)
[16:33:55] <bear> :)
[16:33:57] <Kev> Right, any other any other business?
[16:33:57] <Fritzy> stpeter: maybe a separate meeting for interop
[16:34:14] <stpeter> I think we're done
[16:34:22] <stpeter> Fritzy: yes, could be
[16:34:26] <MattJ> None here
[16:34:35] <Kev> Jolly good. I'll write up minutes and send out. (I usually aim for <=24 hours).
[16:34:37] <linuxwolf> I've got one agenda item for next meeting: focus for this term
[16:34:44] <Kev> linuxwolf: noted.
[16:34:46] <linuxwolf> but we can talk about it later and/or on list
[16:34:50] <stpeter> linuxwolf: see also my roadmap post
[16:35:01] <Kev> Ok, thanks all.
[16:35:06] <linuxwolf> @stpeter that's what I'm refering to (-:
[16:35:11] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[16:35:12] *Kev bangs the gavel.
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[16:35:36] <linuxwolf> adios amigos
[16:35:40] <stpeter> it's great to see all this energy -- now we just need to sustain it :)
[16:36:05] <linuxwolf> let's see what happens after the winter solstice (-:
[16:36:29] <MattJ> :)
[16:36:38] <MattJ> bear, ok - do you see Fritzy's messages?
[16:36:44] <linuxwolf> 'course, that was the council from 4-5 years ago, too (-:
[16:36:44] <bear> yes
[16:36:50] <MattJ> Fritzy, what client are you using?
[16:36:53] <Fritzy> Swift.
[16:36:55] <MattJ> bear, what client are you using?
[16:36:56] <Fritzy> I see them now.
[16:36:58] <bear> Swift
[16:37:04] <bear> I restarted swift
[16:37:06] <MattJ> Fritzy, oh really? It just started?
[16:37:09] <bear> after setting my status
[16:37:26] *MattJ hands it over to Kev and relaxes
[16:37:30] <bear> I suspect swift reconnected after my laptop went to sleep and I was marked as hidden
[16:37:43] <Fritzy> I think it was user-error on my part.
[16:37:49] <bear> or that ;)
[16:37:59] <linuxwolf> heh
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[16:38:07] <bear> oh - so you had me on the ignore list .... hmmm.....
[16:38:09] <bear> :)
[16:38:12] <Fritzy> My ocular-grep was skipping your avatar.
[16:38:17] <Kev> Haha.
[16:38:21] <Fritzy> or rather, not associating it with you.
[16:38:22] <linuxwolf> ok, on to my next meeting…ttyl
[16:38:23] <bear> yea, still haven't figured out how to set that
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[16:38:39] <Kev> bear: not through Swift yet. It'll be in 1.0.
[16:38:47] <bear> *nod*
[16:38:56] <Fritzy> avatars as primary in mucs are cool, but confusing
[16:39:13] <Fritzy> not how my brain works, at least not without a real picture.
[16:39:13] <Kev> If you're in a MUC where people use avatars, I find it much much more convenient.
[16:39:26] *** dwd shows as "online"
[16:39:33] <Kev> If people don't have avatars, less well.
[16:39:57] <Kev> Some abstracts work (e.g. I can associate MattJ and Peter by avatar fine), but I've not got bear's wired in yet.
[16:40:01] <stpeter> I like Kev's 30-minute meeting policy
[16:40:11] <Fritzy> :)
[16:40:14] <Fritzy> it's a good one.
[16:40:19] *** ralphm shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Trying to get something done."
[16:41:36] <dwd> [16:34:00] * Kev bangs the gavel.
[16:41:40] <dwd> 4 minutes over.
[16:42:04] <Kev> Yeah, I blame whoever brought up interop as an AOB.
[16:43:35] <dwd> stpeter, Incidentally, Isode people never disagree on the WG lists, because our participation in the IETF is always personal, thus we are not Isode people when we disagree. :-)
[16:43:44] <stpeter> that's true
[16:44:16] <dwd> stpeter, OTOH, I have heard of some companies who have premeetings prior to IETF week to ensure all their participants toe the company line.
[16:44:22] <MattJ> :D
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[16:46:06] <stpeter> Cisco folks are legendary for disagreeing at IETF meetings
[16:46:21] <dwd> stpeter, Oh, sure. I wasn't meaning Cisco.
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