Wednesday, December 15, 2010
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[16:01:01] <linuxwolf> wow, I'm early for once
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[16:01:31] <Fritzy> :)
[16:01:40] <linuxwolf> And a Fritzy has appeared!
[16:01:47] <linuxwolf> (-:
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[16:02:38] <Kev> Three down.
[16:05:04] <Kev> Matt is joining.
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[16:05:28] <Kev> Ralph has also been poked, but not responded.
[16:05:34] <Kev> So, shall we start?
[16:05:41] <Kev> 1) Roll call
[16:05:45] <linuxwolf> present
[16:06:00] <Fritzy> present
[16:06:03] *MattJ waves
[16:06:09] <Fritzy> presents!
[16:06:17] <Kev> Righty.
[16:06:20] <Kev> 2) Agenda bashing.
[16:06:34] <Fritzy> nope
[16:06:41] <MattJ> ditto
[16:06:43] <linuxwolf> a note at the end from me
[16:06:47] <Kev> Ok.
[16:06:57] <Kev> 3) Interop summary.
[16:07:03] <Kev> So, the interop event happened.
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[16:07:42] <Kev> It started badly without much of a plan, I appointed myself 'in charge of stuff', there was a plan, it went very well.
[16:07:58] <MattJ> +1
[16:08:00] <Fritzy> I read the thread on it. Sounds like you made it productive.
[16:08:01] <Kev> We learned a bit about what we need to do next time, and discussion is starting to happen about this on the interop list.
[16:08:15] <Fritzy> any interesting results?
[16:08:17] <Kev> There's a report on the XSF blog.
[16:08:18] <dwd> I'd note from the floor that the interop testing done on SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS was of quite some importance outside the XSF.
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[16:08:48] <Kev> Fritzy: Well, at the end of the week, everyone participating was more conformant than at the start.
[16:08:54] <Kev> Which is quite a result, relaly.
[16:08:55] <Kev> *really
[16:08:58] <linuxwolf> /nod
[16:09:02] <Fritzy> sounds good to me!
[16:09:11] <dwd> I'd also note that another interop event I've been invoved in increased its setup time to an entire week for the third event, so our spending two days on that is a *small* amount of time, relatively speaking.
[16:09:31] <Kev> It was surprising to me that the general standard of TLS handling was so high.
[16:10:03] <Fritzy> between servers
[16:10:03] <Fritzy> ?
[16:10:03] <Kev> So it does seem, largely, a deployment issue these days that s2s is often insecure.
[16:10:07] <Kev> Yes, s2s.
[16:10:10] <MattJ> Agreed
[16:10:15] <Kev> The only client that did the scripted testing was Swift.
[16:10:49] <Kev> There've been suggestions that the next interop should look at other low level stuff, with internationalisation seeming a sensible choice.
[16:10:51] <dwd> That's not to say that was the only client involved, though - a few used parts of the test network for various things.
[16:11:02] <MattJ> which is fine
[16:11:03] <Kev> dwd: Yes, I'm assuming everyone can read the report.
[16:11:16] <Fritzy> Will do.
[16:11:27] <dwd> Kev, It's on the new-fangled web thing, I didn't know everyone had it.
[16:11:45] <Kev> I don't think there's much more to say about it, but I think Council could consider whether it has a roll in the test plan for next time.
[16:12:08] <dwd> (Or even a role)
[16:12:11] <Kev> Maybe it doesn't, but it would seem to me that of the various XSF bodies, Council are the ones most likely to be thinking about interoperability requirements.
[16:12:28] <Fritzy> that makes sense.
[16:12:30] <MattJ> Indeed
[16:12:46] <dwd> There was also the suggestion concerning the server and client lists and the relationship with the interops.
[16:12:51] <MattJ> Next time I think perhaps council should draw up the tests
[16:13:03] <MattJ> and make them known further in advance of the interop
[16:13:28] <Kev> Yes, there was also discussion that clients and servers shouldn't be listed on xmpp.org unless they participate in the interop events, but that doesn't sound Councilish.
[16:13:38] <Kev> MattJ: Yep.
[16:13:47] <Kev> Righty, I think that's the interop done.
[16:13:47] <ralphm> Kev: agreed
[16:13:59] <Kev> linuxwolf: What did you want to add to the agenda
[16:14:00] <ralphm> I could imagine some interopmatrix
[16:14:00] <Kev> ?
[16:14:02] <dwd> I certainly think that indicating on those lists which ones *did* participate seems sensible.
[16:14:07] <Fritzy> Also, test preparation can be an open thing a week ahead of time -- something people are available to help with before testing is expected to start -- in muc and everything.
[16:14:19] <remko> dwd: *nod* It's a plus if you do, not a bad thing if you don't
[16:14:25] <linuxwolf> some upcoming items of work
[16:14:31] <Kev> Go for it.
[16:14:59] <Kev> Fritzy: Yes, this is all good. Jump on the interop list and discuss :)
[16:15:10] <Kev> linuxwolf: ... which are?
[16:15:11] <linuxwolf> so, we're working out some issues and their solutions regarding multiple resources
[16:15:17] <Kev> Ah.
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[16:15:35] <Kev> http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/multiple-clients.html ?
[16:15:36] <linuxwolf> plus a refresh of vcard
[16:15:46] <ralphm> linuxwolf: refresh?
[16:16:16] <linuxwolf> well, since an XML vcard specification is actually going to make it out of WG discussion, some of us feel it's time to also update (-:
[16:16:20] <Kev> linuxwolf: I did poke Joe about some updates I wanted to do to Mine a few months back, but he never replied.
[16:16:37] <linuxwolf> Kev: he's busy, and that brings me to the next piece
[16:16:40] <Kev> linuxwolf: That sounds new-fangled and exciting.
[16:16:42] <ralphm> linuxwolf: sounds nice, but any indication when?
[16:17:14] <linuxwolf> ralphm: it's an IETF WG, so that's still unknown (-:
[16:17:21] <ralphm> (also, does it include some way to indicate a JID?)
[16:17:44] <ralphm> linuxwolf: it seems this is kinda pending since 2000
[16:17:48] <linuxwolf> most of what we're doing with multiple resources is best practices, plus a bias toward message carbons
[16:17:59] <linuxwolf> ralphm: yes, but now there's actually consensus
[16:18:06] <linuxwolf> it's truly amazing to me (-:
[16:18:30] <linuxwolf> I'm trying to find the people who will actual work on these specs, but it looks like most of them will be moi
[16:18:30] <ralphm> not holding my breath C-:
[16:18:30] <dwd> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-vcarddav-vcardxml-06
[16:18:42] <linuxwolf> ^^
[16:18:51] <Kev> linuxwolf: Have you seen protoxep-multiple-clients?
[16:19:14] <linuxwolf> Kev: yes…since you just sent it to me
[16:19:14] <linuxwolf> (-:
[16:19:15] <remko> dwd: that looks even more verbose than the vcard before, nice
[16:19:25] <dwd> PSA's the responsible AD. Plus we could kick off an experimental XEP referencing the draft.
[16:19:36] <ralphm> it seems extensible, so hooray
[16:19:45] <linuxwolf> dwd: the XEP is started…just needs to get submitted
[16:19:51] <Kev> linuxwolf: Ok, I was trying to solve the same problems (I think) that you're trying to solve with carbons et al (It was carbons I wanted to update, not Mine, my bad).
[16:20:03] <dwd> remko, "It'll compress well"™
[16:20:07] <linuxwolf> Kev: no worries…let's you and I talk more about that
[16:20:15] <Kev> Sounds like a plan.
[16:20:17] <linuxwolf> I think I'll be taking authorship of a couple of these
[16:20:32] <linuxwolf> resource locking best practices, carbons, mine-ing
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[16:20:34] <Kev> And we'll wait to see the third vcard XEP proposal :)
[16:20:39] <stpeter> sigh
[16:20:45] <stpeter> got stuck in a massive traffic jam
[16:20:49] <linuxwolf> Kev: heh…at least #3 will actually use a vCard spec
[16:20:55] <Fritzy> stpeter: shitty
[16:20:58] <Kev> stpeter: I'm about to, which is why I'm keen to keep Council short.
[16:21:02] <stpeter> nod
[16:21:02] <linuxwolf> if we're counting infobits as #2
[16:21:02] <MattJ> stpeter, should have walked like I did :)
[16:21:03] <Kev> At least dwd is driving this time.
[16:21:09] <dwd> stpeter, You need to use better congestion control.
[16:21:21] <Kev> Right, so, that's probably us doneish on that.
[16:21:22] <ralphm> linuxwolf: aaaarghhh
[16:21:23] *stpeter forgot his phone at home, otherwise would've contacted linuxwolf
[16:21:27] <linuxwolf> or a better routing algorithm (-
[16:21:33] <Kev> Next item: Next meeting.
[16:21:51] <Kev> We're halfway through December, I suggest we skip meeting until the new year.
[16:21:55] *stpeter looks at the calendar
[16:21:56] <linuxwolf> /agreed
[16:21:56] <stpeter> yeah
[16:22:08] <Fritzy> 22nd shouldn't be a big deal though?
[16:22:08] <Kev> 5th Jan sounds good to me.
[16:22:08] <MattJ> That would give me a chance to get some XEPs submitted :)
[16:22:09] <linuxwolf> I'm <presence type='unavailable'/> until 01/03 anyway
[16:22:12] <Fritzy> ok
[16:22:18] <stpeter> I might be able to get some protoXEPs and edits done before the next meeting
[16:22:30] <linuxwolf> what stpeter said (-:
[16:22:30] <dwd> linuxwolf, That's not an RFC 3339 compliant date format, naughty.
[16:22:31] <Kev> MattJ: I intend to submit the 136bis related stuff once you're ready to submit 136bis.
[16:22:31] <stpeter> (protoxep for muc error elements)
[16:22:34] <ralphm> For the record: no -1 on publishing remote-auth
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[16:22:49] <Fritzy> +1 for Jan 5th
[16:22:51] <linuxwolf> dwd: 20110103T08:00:00-07:00
[16:23:03] *stpeter adds January 5 to the calendar
[16:23:04] <remko> linuxwolf: thanks. Now us europeans can understand what you mean
[16:23:08] <Fritzy> ralphm: would be interested in reading your critique
[16:23:10] <Kev> linuxwolf: I think that's an hour off.
[16:23:11] <MattJ> Kev, excellent
[16:23:17] <ralphm> Fritzy: 'no -1'
[16:23:25] <Fritzy> oh right
[16:23:27] <Fritzy> lack of veto
[16:23:28] <Fritzy> :)
[16:23:29] <Kev> 9am for -7, isn't it?
[16:23:38] <Kev> 1600 Real Time.
[16:23:46] <ralphm> Kev: did you catch that for the tally?
[16:23:46] <stpeter> it's 9 AM in Denver, 8 AM for Fritzy
[16:23:50] <linuxwolf> Kev: noting when I can be expected back online, not the next meeting (-:
[16:23:51] <Fritzy> yup
[16:23:53] <Kev> ralphm: I did, ta.
[16:23:59] <Kev> linuxwolf: sneaky.
[16:24:05] <linuxwolf> (-;
[16:24:20] <linuxwolf> it's sinister…just like my handedness
[16:24:28] <Kev> Ok, so, next meeting 5th Jan 1600GMT.
[16:24:34] <Kev> Any other Business?
[16:24:40] <linuxwolf> oh, FOSDEM
[16:24:52] <dwd> linuxwolf, Latin gags. I imagine your and PSA's classics-related humour has them rolling on the floor in Cisco.
[16:24:53] <linuxwolf> who from this council is thinking of attending
[16:24:54] <linuxwolf> ?
[16:24:59] <MattJ> <--
[16:25:03] <dwd> Kev will be.
[16:25:04] <Kev> linuxwolf: I'm assuming I will be.
[16:25:08] <linuxwolf> hehe
[16:25:13] <dwd> Kev, You are attending.
[16:25:17] <stpeter> heh
[16:25:19] <Kev> Jolly good.
[16:25:20] <Fritzy> Wish I could make it this year, but since I'll be in Italy shortly after, it isn't in the budget.
[16:25:22] <remko> dwd: you?
[16:25:25] <linuxwolf> dwd: "Good to be the King" (-:
[16:25:25] <dwd> Kev, I forgot to mention.
[16:25:29] <stpeter> and we know how much Kev loves Brussels
[16:25:42] <dwd> remko, I am, too. \o/
[16:25:42] <MattJ> :)
[16:25:45] <stpeter> but at least he has a few good memories of the place :)
[16:25:45] <ralphm> I'm attending of course
[16:25:45] <Kev> About || this much.
[16:25:47] <remko> dwd: \o/
[16:25:49] <Fritzy> they have good beer
[16:25:49] <linuxwolf> I need to find business justification before I can commit to being at FOSDEM
[16:26:00] <Kev> And I caught this awful 'having a wife' illness there, too.
[16:26:03] <Kev> But yes.
[16:26:05] <ralphm> linuxwolf: does "meeting ralphm" count?
[16:26:08] <Kev> linuxwolf: I'll be there :)
[16:26:09] <linuxwolf> (-:
[16:26:10] <Kev> Job done.
[16:26:20] <linuxwolf> if we have an "official council meeting", that can help (-:
[16:26:26] <Fritzy> aw man
[16:26:28] <ralphm> linuxwolf: done deal
[16:26:30] <stpeter> linuxwolf: we can find some customers for you to meet with :)
[16:26:33] <dwd> linuxwolf, Kurt wants to discuss digsig in XMPP, which is relevant.
[16:26:36] <linuxwolf> I'm working on my list…but every little thing helps
[16:26:46] <Kev> I expect there to be some informal interop, but I'm not sure if it'll be formal.
[16:26:57] <linuxwolf> stpeter: the good thing about Cisco is, it's global, so I can always find someone I need to talk with
[16:27:05] <Kev> Right.
[16:27:05] <Fritzy> we did Jingle interop the year before last
[16:27:09] <ralphm> linuxwolf: is being-council-member considered part of your job?
[16:27:24] <linuxwolf> ralphm: I believe it is, yes (-:
[16:27:29] <ralphm> ralphm: well, there you go
[16:27:32] <linuxwolf> heh
[16:27:35] <Kev> Or here you come, or something.
[16:27:36] <Kev> Anyway.
[16:27:42] <Kev> Any other any other business?
[16:27:49] <linuxwolf> I'm done...really!
[16:27:51] <Fritzy> no sir
[16:28:07] <ralphm> 5 min. to spare. nice
[16:28:25] <Kev> There are advantages to having a Chair with the attention span of a
[16:28:28] <Kev> oooh, butterflies.
[16:28:36] <Kev> Right!
[16:28:36] <linuxwolf> SQUIRREL!
[16:28:47] <Kev> I'll write up some meetings of the minute tomorrow morning.
[16:28:51] <linuxwolf> /nod
[16:28:58] <Kev> Thanks all
[16:29:03] *Kev gavels the bang.
[16:29:08] <linuxwolf> Kev: and I'll begin the out-of-band discussion shortly
[16:29:12] <MattJ> Merci
[16:29:24] <linuxwolf> ¡gracias!
[16:29:31] <Kev> linuxwolf: Thanks. I like multiple-clients, but don't have an implementation yet, so it's not too late to change my mind :)
[16:29:37] <Kev> Anyway, there is a road to be hit.
[16:29:38] <Kev> gn all.
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[16:29:49] <stpeter> bye!
[16:29:51] <linuxwolf> ttfn
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[16:29:55] <ralphm> Kev: I want it in my n900
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