Wednesday, January 05, 2011
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:42:47] <stpeter> hey boss, I'm here! :)
[15:45:27] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[15:46:22] <Kev> Excellent.
[15:46:48] <Kev> Worryingly, I'm not showing in the occupant list, and the room is sending messages to three of my resources.
[15:46:53] <stpeter> although I'm still woefully behind from having been offline for 10 days
[15:46:55] <stpeter> heh
[15:47:18] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:47:26] *** Kev got kicked, the reason was "Wheeeee"
[15:47:40] <Kev> Oh, and the silly server doesn't allow me to kick myself.
[15:47:56] <Kev> Are you able to (please)?
[15:47:58] <stpeter> I can kick you, perhaps
[15:48:04] *** Kev got kicked
[15:48:12] <stpeter> I am not allowed to kick you
[15:48:15] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[15:48:16] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[15:48:33] <Kev> Can you do the demote/kick/make owner dance please?
[15:48:40] <stpeter> sigh :)
[15:48:43] <Kev> Oh, wait.
[15:48:46] <Kev> I wonder if I can do this...
[15:48:55] <Kev> No, not allowed.
[15:48:59] <Kev> So yes, the dance needs to be done :/
[15:50:15] *** Kev got kicked
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[15:50:34] <Kev> Murky buckets.
[15:50:35] <stpeter> and you're back!
[15:50:41] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[15:50:51] <Kev> Excellent.
[15:51:03] <stpeter> you were also an owner with typographically-challenged JIDs
[15:51:14] <Kev> Was I? Excellent.
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[15:51:37] <stpeter> kismithh@domain.tld
[15:51:43] <Kev> Heh.
[15:51:52] <Kev> I'll put myself back, but without the type.
[15:51:54] <Kev> *typo.
[15:52:11] <stpeter> k
[15:52:12] <stpeter> good
[15:52:18] <Kev> Much better. Now I can do the demotion dance myself next time :)
[15:52:22] <stpeter> so many JIDs, so little time
[15:52:32] *** Kev has left the room
[15:52:34] <Kev> Quite.
[15:52:48] <stpeter> once again I didn't receive the meeting notification in my calendaring app
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[15:54:40] <waqas> Thanks for the identica notification stpeter
[15:54:42] *** linuxwolf has joined the room
[15:54:49] <stpeter> waqas: sure thing!
[15:55:05] <stpeter> cross-posted to my Twitter account too, not that I pay any attention to Twitter
[15:55:30] *stpeter quickly finishes reading https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pim-group-rp-mapping/?include_text=1
[15:56:15] <linuxwolf> stpeter: so, light reading (-:
[15:56:56] <stpeter> miles to go before we sleep, at least with respect to tomorrow's IESG meeting
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[16:01:26] <Fritzy> Good morning.
[16:01:40] *bear lurks in the corner with his Board Member hat on
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[16:01:58] <Kev> (I asked bear along for the FOSDEM discussions)
[16:02:23] <stpeter> I wish there were a way to move tabs around in Psi, as there is in Firefox
[16:02:30] <stpeter> too many tabs...
[16:02:39] <Kev> There is, but you won't like it :)
[16:02:53] <stpeter> heh
[16:03:21] <Kev> Aaaaaanyway, it's Wednesday, it's four o'clock, and it's Council time!
[16:03:37] <Fritzy> it's 8am, and I'm in my pajamas.
[16:03:42] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[16:03:50] <Fritzy> here
[16:04:03] <linuxwolf> there
[16:04:06] <Kev> I believe I'm here also.
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[16:04:30] <Kev> Ralph has just gone AFK, and I've not seen MattJ today.
[16:04:39] <Kev> 2) Agenda bashing.
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[16:05:31] <Kev> Seems fairly quiet.
[16:05:37] <Kev> 3) FOSDEM.
[16:05:50] <Fritzy> I'll be there. Last time we talked, I wasn't going, but I am now.
[16:05:51] <stpeter> :)
[16:06:01] <Fritzy> have we determined what we're doing for a competition?
[16:06:01] <stpeter> sorry, had a phone call
[16:06:09] <Kev> Does Council need to do anything in preparation for this? Board asked me to send a mail to members@ asking what people wanted to do for the hackfest on the Friday, which no-one has yet replied to.
[16:06:12] <stpeter> let's get Florian in here
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[16:06:25] <Kev> stpeter: That's why bear's been invited :)
[16:06:38] <Kev> I would have asked Florian as our man on the ground, but his status indicates he's on his mobile.
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[16:06:46] <stpeter> ah
[16:06:47] <stpeter> there he is
[16:06:56] <Kev> Florian: see above :)
[16:06:57] <stpeter> Florian is Mr. Competition
[16:07:04] <admin@im.flosoft.biz> Wow, I seem to be able to do MUC
[16:07:11] <Fritzy> :_
[16:07:37] <admin@im.flosoft.biz> So, what's up?
[16:07:49] <Kev> Does Council need to do anything to prepare for FOSDEM?
[16:08:01] <Kev> I sent my mail to members@ asking about the Friday, as requested, although no-one's answered.
[16:08:04] <admin@im.flosoft.biz> Talks?
[16:08:07] <bear> is Interop going to be an official event?
[16:08:27] <admin@im.flosoft.biz> Interop on Friday maybe?
[16:08:36] <Kev> What sort of interop?
[16:08:42] <admin@im.flosoft.biz> As we have people hacking on clients and servers?
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[16:08:43] <Fritzy> either interop or a hackfest
[16:08:44] <bear> that's why I was asking kev
[16:09:19] <Kev> I'm happy to have a day hacking on stuff, and it'd be fun, the question is whether it's the best use of time/resources.
[16:09:45] *** Johann Prieur shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:09:49] <admin@im.flosoft.biz> Hmm...
[16:09:58] *stpeter replies to Kev's message on the summit@ list
[16:09:58] <bear> I would (personally) love to see some client lib hacking against the interop servers
[16:10:12] <Kev> bear: explain.
[16:10:25] <Kev> Oh, was it summit@ that I mailed? Whatever :)
[16:10:34] <Kev> Thanks Peter.
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[16:10:44] <Fritzy> well, we've done a bunch of s2s interop, and even some c2s interop. It's time for some client to server interop, right?
[16:11:04] <Fritzy> errr. c2c not c2s
[16:11:04] <Kev> Isn't c2s interop synonymous with client to server interop?
[16:11:14] <linuxwolf> that's what I was thinking...
[16:11:15] <Fritzy> yeah, type-o
[16:11:20] <Kev> Right, let's try the whole sentence again with the right words :)
[16:11:32] <Fritzy> -_-
[16:11:41] <bear> right what fritzy meant to say: some basic c2c across each interop server
[16:12:04] <Fritzy> ok, we've done s2s and client-to-client, but we haven't done much client-to-server that I'm aware of.
[16:12:08] <Kev> Ok.
[16:12:26] <Fritzy> making sure that clients are treating certificates correctly, etc.
[16:12:32] *bear nods
[16:12:46] <Fritzy> dealing with jid binding correctly for edge cases, etc
[16:13:12] *linuxwolf nods … and expects lots of failures there
[16:13:21] <Kev> Right, there was a little of that in interop week, but Swift was the only client that was keeping up with the tests I published.
[16:13:40] <linuxwolf> it's good to be the King? (-;
[16:13:43] <Kev> (where keeping up isn't used as a synonym for passing)
[16:13:59] <Kev> linuxwolf: I think there was a general lack of interest from client devs, compared to server devs.
[16:14:01] <Fritzy> what client devs are we going to have there? I'd be happy to run Sleek through it.
[16:14:17] <Fritzy> I think there was general unawareness from client devs.
[16:14:34] <Kev> stpeter: Is our 'net connection going to be sensible this year?
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[16:14:48] <Fritzy> we'll be at Cisco, so I'd hope so.
[16:14:55] <Kev> If it is, I can have the various test servers for invalid certs etc. set up for testing against remotely.
[16:15:15] <Kev> Fritzy: Never hurts to check.
[16:15:40] <bear> that's my secret/evil plan - alternating server interop with client/lib interop. so they are continually building on the successes of the prior sessions
[16:15:50] <stpeter> Kev: yes, it should be!
[16:16:00] <Fritzy> and maybe the council/board could seek out client devs ahead of time, poking them individually.
[16:16:03] <waqas> Tests for non-ASCII hostnames in certs would be good. Along with unusual DNS configurations.
[16:16:05] <Kev> bear: Well, I'd rather we ran them at the same time tbh.
[16:16:18] <bear> kev - just trying to avoid burnout of one or the other
[16:16:34] <Kev> Client testing relies on having the test servers up, and there's no motivation for the server vendors to spend (significant) resources on the event for client testing.
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[16:17:50] <Kev> waqas: We can test those things, but given the simultaneous upheaval in internationalisation stuffs, it's not clear to me that it's a worthwhile exercise.
[16:18:03] <Kev> We'll find out how good support is for the standard we're about to change :)
[16:18:05] <bear> my working assumption is until we get both sides generating data interest will be hard to maintain
[16:18:31] <Fritzy> what kind of data?
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[16:19:19] <bear> this server does xep x, y, z but not q
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[16:19:23] <Kev> Ok, so, I propose that what we do on Friday is (apart from Peter's early session on internationalisation), we don't schedule talks, and that we spend the day in a combination of hacking and informal testing.
[16:19:28] <bear> this client supports y, z but fails on x
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[16:19:49] <stpeter> BTW I volunteered to present an internationalization tutorial on Friday
[16:19:51] <bear> +1 to kev's idea
[16:19:54] <Kev> bear: Note that we have those data (and published them) for all of the participating clients and servers for the last test event.
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[16:20:13] <Kev> stpeter: Yes, isn't that what I said?
[16:20:14] <bear> kev - yep, and that's the first step
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[16:21:00] <Fritzy> I think we need to reach out to people individually ahead of time
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[16:21:09] <Kev> So, I think we need to decide if either testing or hackfesting is going to be formalised in any way for the Friday. I'm inclined to say 'no', but if people want it to be, we'll need to decide how/what.
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[16:21:29] <Kev> Fritzy: Yes, that should have happened with the last interop, but didn't really.
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[16:21:41] <Fritzy> sounds like a board thing. ;)
[16:21:45] <Kev> It was :)
[16:22:03] <bear> it was and it was early in that board iteration :(
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[16:22:25] <Fritzy> bear, how about we work together to seek out client dev participants? you and I can get it done.
[16:22:32] <bear> deal
[16:22:35] <Kev> So, my opinion is that there's nothing for Council to be doing in planning Friday at this stage, unless further discussion changes this.
[16:22:41] <stpeter> seems so
[16:22:45] <bear> agreed
[16:22:55] <Kev> Which brings us to the date of next meeting.
[16:23:01] <Kev> Next Wed. as usual?
[16:23:05] <linuxwolf> /nod
[16:23:09] <Fritzy> +1
[16:23:16] <stpeter> WFM
[16:23:25] <Kev> Excellent.
[16:23:27] <Kev> Any other business?
[16:23:38] <stpeter> none here
[16:23:42] <Fritzy> Will we have the whole council at FOSDEM?
[16:23:42] <stpeter> at least for toda
[16:23:48] <stpeter> +y
[16:23:58] <stpeter> Fritzy: I think so, but not sure about lw
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[16:24:12] <Fritzy> that'll be a first
[16:24:18] <linuxwolf> I've gotten conflicting answers so far
[16:24:21] <Fritzy> we might have a meeting while we're there in peron.
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[16:24:47] <ralphm> oh eoe
[16:24:51] <ralphm> I couldn't get in here
[16:25:01] <ralphm> still loads of lag
[16:25:14] <Fritzy> we could plan some council discussions over theweekend.
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[16:26:03] <Kev> We could. Or we could just let them happen naturally :)
[16:26:09] <Kev> So, I think we're done then.
[16:26:13] <ralphm> :-(
[16:26:23] <Kev> ralphm: There'll be more meetings.
[16:26:27] <Kev> Thanks all.
[16:26:31] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[16:26:35] <ralphm> Kev: thanks!
[16:26:38] <stpeter> the one time we had a formal council meeting in person, everyone else just zoned out :)
[16:26:44] <ralphm> doesn't sound like I missed very much
[16:26:47] <Kev> stpeter: That was 2008, I think.
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[16:26:53] <Kev> No, 2007
[16:26:59] <stpeter> 2007 sounds right
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[16:27:09] <Fritzy> yeah, this is 2011... things have changed! Humanity has evolved!
[16:27:16] <ralphm> stpeter: yeah, that didn't quite work
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[16:27:24] <stpeter> so much evolution, so little progress...
[16:27:31] <ralphm> we can just sit in a corner and maybe people want to join
[16:27:34] <Fritzy> In any case, I wouldn't have the meeting with the group as a whole. After hours.
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[16:27:42] <ralphm> I wouldn't do it planary
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[16:28:26] *linuxwolf waves adios
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[16:31:04] <Fritzy> ciao
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[16:50:34] <MattJ> :(
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[17:07:19] <ralphm> MattJ: welcome anyway
[17:07:41] <MattJ> Thanks :)
[17:07:50] *MattJ was out and didn't make it back in time
[17:08:12] <MattJ> Someone needs to write a decent MUC-capable Android client
[17:08:15] <stpeter> ralphm: did we receive confirmation regarding the FOSDEM stand?
[17:08:31] <ralphm> stpeter: I didn't
[17:08:44] <stpeter> ralphm: discussing FOSDEM in xmpp:xsf@muc.xmpp.org?join
[17:08:46] <stpeter> hmm ok
[17:08:50] *stpeter checks his email
[17:08:54] <ralphm> stpeter: I'm unsure now if we applied
[17:10:14] <stpeter> um, ok, perhaps I left that for you and you left that for me
[17:13:11] <ralphm> stpeter: possible. we suck :-(
[17:18:58] <ralphm> stpeter: I do regret I didn't check that, though
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[17:29:22] <stpeter> ralphm: it's ok
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[17:46:59] <stpeter> do we have a Council meeting planned for next week?
[17:47:04] <stpeter> if so, I'll update the calendar
[17:47:08] *stpeter scrolls up
[17:47:23] <stpeter> yep
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[19:51:12] *** stpeter has left the room
[19:59:17] *** Funatiker shows as "online"
[20:00:41] *** Funatiker shows as "away" and his status message is "@pub"
[20:50:37] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being too idle"
[21:03:22] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[21:08:24] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[21:08:24] *** mlundblad shows as "online" and his status message is "GT5"
[21:14:18] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[21:14:18] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[21:41:53] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being too idle"
[21:51:35] *** Kooda shows as "xa" and his status message is "détaché"
[22:03:30] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[22:03:30] *** mlundblad shows as "online" and his status message is "GT5"
[22:11:52] *** MattJ shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of not being here"
[22:13:48] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[22:13:48] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[22:16:33] *** mlundblad shows as "away"
[22:16:33] *** mlundblad shows as "online" and his status message is "GT5"
[22:27:15] *** mlundblad has left the room
[22:53:06] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[23:42:43] *** Tobias has left the room
[23:43:18] *** MattJ has left the room