Wednesday, March 02, 2011
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:53:27] <Kev> So, we have nothing to discuss, but we still have a meeting scheduled.
[15:53:40] <Kev> I think a quick discussion of RTT would be sensible, though.
[15:53:44] *Kev waits for 7minutes.
[15:54:00] *** linuxwolf has joined the room
[15:54:48] <linuxwolf> I take it we only have an "unofficial" topic today? (-:
[15:55:11] <Kev> Oh, two, actually.
[15:55:34] <linuxwolf> !agenda
[15:55:44] <Kev> Oh, maybe I should write a bot to do that.
[15:55:46] <Kev> That'd be good.
[15:55:53] *Kev makes a note.
[15:55:55] <linuxwolf> at one point, chatbot could do that
[15:56:12] <linuxwolf> or some variation of it
[15:56:14] <Kev> Well, I'm working (very slowly) on a new bot, so I'll add that to it when it's ready.
[15:56:22] <linuxwolf> heh
[15:56:36] <linuxwolf> I'm working very slowly on a new voting bot
[15:56:46] <Kev> Oh, wonderful.
[15:56:58] <linuxwolf> but it's built with EVIL CLOSED SOURCE EMPIRE SOFTWARE right now
[15:57:04] <Kev> Heh.
[15:57:14] <Kev> Language?
[15:57:15] <linuxwolf> er, was…I'll have to see if that repo survived some migrations
[15:57:30] <Kev> You're welcome to throw it up on top of Swiftob if it's something C++ish.
[15:57:32] <linuxwolf> it started Java, then moved to JavaScript…now, we'll see
[15:57:45] <linuxwolf> well, I need to get it through Legal first (-:
[15:57:51] <Kev> Well, javascript is almost Lua, and I'll be putting Lua support in shortly.
[15:58:07] <Kev> Ah, I hadn't understood that the code itself was evil and closed-source as well as what it was using :)
[15:58:10] <linuxwolf> the "joys" of working for a multi-national
[15:58:28] <linuxwolf> yeah, unfortunately
[15:58:58] <linuxwolf> the closed-source part might change…you know, eventually…maybe
[15:59:00] <linuxwolf> /sigh
[15:59:57] <Kev> Everyone has been poked.
[16:00:08] <Kev> 6 billion people took a while, but it's been done.
[16:00:14] *** Fritzy has joined the room
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[16:01:07] <linuxwolf> raflmao
[16:01:07] <Kev> There we go, right room this week :)
[16:01:38] <Kev> No response from Ralph to the ping, but we have quorum.
[16:01:42] <Kev> Autobots transform and roll out!
[16:01:42] <MattJ> What's on the agenda?
[16:01:51] <Kev> MattJ: I'm making it up as we go along, sorry.
[16:01:51] <linuxwolf> RTT
[16:01:56] <MattJ> k
[16:01:58] <Kev> 1) Roll call
[16:02:03] <linuxwolf> presente
[16:02:27] <Fritzy> here
[16:02:28] <Kev> I like the idea of people replying to Roll calls, so I at least have an idea they're listening at the start :)
[16:02:43] <Kev> I used to always just list who was here, and then spend the meeting wondering if they were at their PCs :)
[16:03:02] <MattJ> I'm here, I think
[16:03:07] <Kev> Marverful.
[16:03:14] <Kev> 2) Agenda bashing.
[16:03:22] *** linuxwolf shows as "dnd" and his status message is "XSF council meeting"
[16:03:25] <Kev> So, yeah, until 30mins ago I didn't think we had much agenda, but now I think we do.
[16:03:33] <Fritzy> oh, ok
[16:03:39] <Kev> So I'm making it up as we go along, it basically goes "RTT" and then "XEP-Correct"
[16:03:47] <linuxwolf> hehehe
[16:03:49] <Kev> Anyone else have things we need to talk about?
[16:03:56] <Fritzy> I just finished catching up on that thread.
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[16:04:19] <Kev> I'll take that as a no :)
[16:04:20] <Fritzy> Kev: nothing here
[16:04:22] <Kev> So...
[16:04:25] <Kev> 3) RTT
[16:04:36] <Kev> That thread seems to be making progress to address my concerns.
[16:04:46] <Fritzy> Sounds like he's going to do a revised spec.
[16:04:52] <MattJ> Indeed
[16:04:54] <Kev> They've persuaded me that all the gumph around delay transmission and stuff is useful to a subset of users.
[16:04:55] <linuxwolf> yes
[16:05:10] <Fritzy> and you pretty much summed up all of the concerns that I had (plus some). I still need to poke the thread a bit now that I've caught up.
[16:05:27] <Kev> And I think they've agreed to tidy up the spec, split it into Stuff You Must Have, and The Complicated Stuff.
[16:05:42] <linuxwolf> I do find it somewhat funny we're introducing a spec that benefits a protected class of individuals but could be a detriment to everyone else (-:
[16:05:50] <Fritzy> yeah, but there still isn't a super-easy base.
[16:05:57] <Kev> Fritzy: There is, I think.
[16:06:05] <MattJ> Personally I hate the idea of transmitting text as I type
[16:06:08] <Kev> If they agree to do replace-only as the base.
[16:06:23] <linuxwolf> we'll have to see what the next rev is like
[16:06:26] <Kev> Right, I dislike using this feature, but I can see the merit in clients supporting it in case you ever talk to a deaf person or whatever.
[16:06:38] <MattJ> but it seems plenty of people want it, and I'd rather we spec it through the XSF than leave them to cook up something themselves
[16:06:44] <Kev> I'd turn it on, despite disliking it, if I was talking to someone who'd greatly benefit.
[16:07:01] <Fritzy> I'd use it for Frontdesk.im
[16:07:07] <Fritzy> if it were simple enough to implement
[16:07:08] <linuxwolf> my typing abilities are atrocious enough
[16:07:09] <linuxwolf> (-:
[16:07:13] <Kev> I think there's merit in what he says, too.
[16:07:13] <Fritzy> because I have customers that want it
[16:07:27] <Kev> The basic set of operations *are* just basic deterministic string manipulations.
[16:07:37] <linuxwolf> I don't know that our customers would allow it in their networks…but we'll see
[16:07:40] <Kev> The pain is in writing the parsers and serialisers for it all.
[16:07:41] <Fritzy> He's not afraid to send a wall of text back at every point.
[16:08:20] <Kev> So, basically, I'd like people to reply on-list please, even if it's just to say that you feel your concerns are/aren't being addressed by the way the conversation's going.
[16:08:33] <Fritzy> ok
[16:08:38] <Kev> (and if they aren't, why, of course)
[16:08:56] <Kev> I'd like it if when they came back with a v2 spec, they'd had all the feedback they need to make it something we could accept.
[16:09:03] <linuxwolf> /nod
[16:09:19] <Kev> So, onwards
[16:09:25] <Kev> 4) Xep-correct.
[16:09:41] <Kev> I wrote up http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/xep-correct.html (could you have a quick read please, it's very short)...
[16:09:50] <Fritzy> reading..
[16:09:56] <Fritzy> (saw you mentioned it in the thread)
[16:10:08] <linuxwolf> I think I've seen this before...
[16:10:47] <Kev> some time ago, and didn't get around to filling in the blanks. Various people keep prodding me because they want it published. Is the approach acceptable to Council, and if so what's the minimum I need to do to the spec to get it past a pseudo-vote to experimental?
[16:10:52] *** ralphm has joined the room
[16:10:57] <Kev> Hi Ralph.
[16:11:02] <ralphm> hi
[16:11:40] <MattJ> "Standard stuff. To come later."
[16:11:53] <MattJ> I mean, the approach is clearly ok
[16:12:00] <linuxwolf> Kev: namespace to urn:xmpp:correct:0, and but a schema in place; maybe the boiler plate about using Disco
[16:12:08] <MattJ> Just editorial stuff
[16:12:18] <Fritzy> you don't address multiple <body /> here.
[16:12:29] <Fritzy> which seems like it could pose a problem for multi-language messages
[16:12:39] <Kev> Fritzy: This is true. This is easily worded around, though.
[16:12:40] <MattJ> Good catch
[16:12:58] <linuxwolf> I wouldn't have held it up for the l10n problems
[16:13:01] <Kev> "Only do the replacement on the body with the same xml:lang as the one you've received"
[16:13:04] <MattJ> Just choose the body with the same xml:lang as the <replace>
[16:13:05] <linuxwolf> not to get to experimental
[16:13:26] <Fritzy> yeah, I think filling in the blanks is enough for experimental
[16:13:59] <linuxwolf> for features, just pick some not-insane values for now, and let's push it!
[16:14:08] <Kev> Ok, so, summary of what I need to do is 1) Add the Disco/caps examples 2) change namespace (although I think this act technically happens at the moment it become Experimental) 3) add Schema.
[16:14:23] <linuxwolf> +1
[16:14:29] <MattJ> +1
[16:14:41] <Fritzy> +1
[16:14:44] <MattJ> Though the multiple body issue is probably just a couple of sentences, so if you can... :)
[16:14:50] <linuxwolf> I have a BCP for resource locking I need to get cleaned up and submitted
[16:14:51] <Kev> I'll see how my 'free time' looks, and see if I can get it to Peter and through to the inbox in time for next week.
[16:14:56] <ralphm> +1
[16:14:58] <Fritzy> beyond experimental, you might separate the client-uses out of the protocol language in a separate section
[16:15:16] <stpeter> um I thought we weren't having a meeting today
[16:15:18] <linuxwolf> yeah, use cases versus implementation notes…but we can work through that on the lists
[16:15:35] <Fritzy> stpeter: I thought so too, but apparently minds were changed
[16:15:37] <Kev> stpeter: I don't think anyone proposed skipping it.
[16:15:42] <stpeter> aha
[16:15:45] <Fritzy> yeah, not directly
[16:15:50] <linuxwolf> we never said we *weren't*
[16:15:54] <linuxwolf> (-:
[16:16:05] <Kev> linuxwolf: We didn't say we weren't, and last Thursday we said we were, so ... ;)
[16:16:17] <linuxwolf> exacetally
[16:16:21] <Kev> Sure, though, I can see me sending a mail asking for agenda items could be interpreted as a meeting cancellation.
[16:16:31] <Kev> Probably an American vs. English thing.
[16:16:35] <Kev> :D
[16:16:45] *stpeter reminds Fritzy that he needs to vote on XEP-0198 version 1.2
[16:16:45] <linuxwolf> <replace id='blah' xmlns='urn:xmpp:correct:0'>exactly</replace>
[16:16:52] <ralphm> I also assumed there wouln't be a meeting.
[16:17:08] <Fritzy> stpeter: I went to bed early/sick -- is it not too late?
[16:17:41] <Kev> I should have sent out an agenda etc. Until this afternoon, I thought we had no items and was going to propose cancelling, and by the time we were T-60minutes I didn't see the point in sending one out when we could discuss here.
[16:18:01] <Kev> Anyway.
[16:18:06] <Kev> 5) Any other business.
[16:18:07] <Kev> Anyone?
[16:18:16] <MattJ> NOP
[16:18:20] <linuxwolf> not this week
[16:18:24] <Kev> To keep everyone informed, Bear's halfway through doing the GSoC application.
[16:18:25] <linuxwolf> hopefully in time for next
[16:18:26] <Fritzy> till next week
[16:18:32] <linuxwolf> coolio
[16:18:40] <stpeter> Fritzy: not too late, no
[16:18:50] <MattJ> We're having a harder time getting GSoC ideas together for Prosody than we had last year
[16:18:50] <stpeter> it seems that I missed the RTT discussion :(
[16:19:06] <Kev> stpeter: Oh, panic ye not, it's still ongoing :)
[16:19:08] <MattJ> Since last year nearly all the GSoC ideas have been started by us or community members :)
[16:19:20] <Kev> MattJ: New archiving? :)
[16:19:30] <Fritzy> stpeter: to summarize -- make sure they have enough info to make their second proposal acceptable
[16:19:40] <MattJ> That's hardly a whole GSoC project
[16:19:44] <MattJ> sadly
[16:19:53] <Kev> If anyone can persuade people to please submit ideas for various projects, please please do. It looks lonely with just BC and Swift up.
[16:20:09] <linuxwolf> MattJ: vcard-temp to vcard4 converter? (-:
[16:20:15] <Kev> I've poked assorted projects, Bear tells me he's been poking assorted projects too.
[16:20:16] <MattJ> ick
[16:20:24] <stpeter> as to RTT, it is important for a subset of users, and we really don't want folks to use RFC 4103 because there's no XMPP solution :)
[16:20:43] <linuxwolf> MattJ: vcard is like broccoli; not many people like it, but you have to have it
[16:20:51] <stpeter> I love broccoli!
[16:20:58] <Kev> stpeter: I think the discussion onlist is progressing productively. The intention is to clean up the spec and resubmit.
[16:21:03] <linuxwolf> stpeter: fine, then jelly beans for you!
[16:21:26] <Kev> 6) Date of next meeting.
[16:21:29] <Kev> Next Wednesday?
[16:21:30] <MattJ> linuxwolf, I love broccoli, I don't love vcard4 :)
[16:21:51] <MattJ> Next Wednesday seems ok for me
[16:21:54] <Fritzy> +1 next wed
[16:22:00] <stpeter> Kev: super
[16:22:03] <linuxwolf> MattJ: vcard is like <insert undesirable but healthy food item here>; you don't like it, but have to have it
[16:22:03] <Fritzy> I'll likely miss the one after that as I'll be traveling to ITaly
[16:22:13] <stpeter> Kev: I've been reading Internet-Drafts, but will dive into RTT later today
[16:22:15] <linuxwolf> +1 for wed
[16:22:20] <MattJ> linuxwolf, I don't like sprouts, and I do fine without them
[16:22:21] <stpeter> I'm happy to see the RTT folks engaging on the list
[16:22:23] <Kev> Very nice, I ate lots of pizza in Italy a few weeks ago :)
[16:22:43] <linuxwolf> heh
[16:22:44] <Kev> Ok, so I think we're on for Wed then.
[16:22:48] <Fritzy> we'll have to talk outside of the meeting then
[16:22:53] <stpeter> so xep-correct is to be published?
[16:23:07] <stpeter> seems to be unanimous
[16:23:07] <Fritzy> not yet
[16:23:10] <MattJ> Kev is to clean up and submit it
[16:23:11] <Kev> stpeter: No, XEP-Correct is to have a few fixes so it's suitable for submission, then Council have agreed to publish it :)
[16:23:19] <MattJ> and we've pre-approved it :)
[16:23:30] <Fritzy> no no
[16:23:31] <Kev> Apart from me, I've not approved it yet :D
[16:23:31] <stpeter> and I saw no objections to vcard4 xep (vcard4 is another matter!) so I assume that is to be published
[16:23:31] <stpeter> ok
[16:23:35] <stpeter> Kev: :P
[16:23:35] <Fritzy> we've suggested that Kev should
[16:23:52] <stpeter> ok
[16:23:53] *linuxwolf is feeling like a dirty loan servicer (-:
[16:24:03] <Kev> stpeter: Voting period on vcard4 is over, so that's approved, yes.
[16:24:14] <Fritzy> linuxwolf: dude, the inner circle has an agenda, man.
[16:24:16] <Kev> s/Voting/Thing that looks like voting, but isn't/
[16:24:25] <MattJ> vcard4 is to be published, but I'm unconvinced of it seeing adoption and going beyond that unless it changes, but we'll see
[16:24:25] <Kev> Ok, I think we're done, then.
[16:24:26] <stpeter> I'm giving Fritzy a grace period on 198 in case he finds anything bad
[16:24:40] <Kev> stpeter: Very generous :)
[16:24:41] <Fritzy> looking for bad right now
[16:24:42] <stpeter> but I'll push it out by end of day if we don't hear from him
[16:24:47] <linuxwolf> MattJ: please post your concerns to the lst
[16:24:49] <stpeter> Fritzy: many thanks
[16:24:49] <Kev> Ok, thanks all :)
[16:24:50] <linuxwolf> *list
[16:24:53] <stpeter> yep thanks
[16:24:54] *Kev gangs the bavel.
[16:25:01] *stpeter goes back to IESG telechat preparation
[16:25:02] <MattJ> linuxwolf, I discussed it a bit with waqas and he posted for the both of us :)
[16:25:18] <linuxwolf> adios, off to next meetage
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[16:25:40] *Kev adds minute-writing to his TODO
[16:26:34] <stpeter> heh
[16:26:35] <stpeter> thanks
[16:38:23] <stpeter> Kev: regarding message correction, I'll ping Florian because he was working on a proto-proto-xep about this once upon a time
[16:38:36] <Kev> Which of the assorted Florians? :)
[16:38:55] <stpeter> Florian Jensen
[16:39:11] <Kev> I did send this one out to standards@ some 6 months ago, so I imagine he's aware of it, but thanks :)
[16:39:52] <stpeter> ah
[16:40:00] <stpeter> well I poked him via IM
[16:40:06] <Fritzy> stpeter: section 5 "In addition, this allows entities to establish definitively which stanzas require resending and which do not, eliminating replay issues."
[16:40:07] <stpeter> I must've missed it 6 months ago
[16:40:36] <Fritzy> that seems a bit more definitive than it probably means to be
[16:40:58] <Fritzy> I mean, if an ack is only sent every so often, it doesn't prevent all replay
[16:42:10] <stpeter> well, you know which stanzas haven't been acked and therefore might need to be resent
[16:42:24] <stpeter> I think that text came from Dave Cridland's patch, so I'll blame him :)
[16:42:30] <Fritzy> haha
[16:43:05] <stpeter> I think this would be better:

In addition, this enables entities to establish which stanzas might need to be resent.

[16:43:37] <Fritzy> I think that is less amiguous.
[16:44:01] <Fritzy> *ambiguous
[16:44:15] <Fritzy> I need XEP-correct
[16:44:23] <stpeter> :)
[16:44:32] <MattJ> I think the point he's trying to make is that without this, there's the chance of message duplication ("replay")
[16:44:41] <stpeter> right
[16:44:53] <stpeter> the word "replay" brings to mind replay attacks
[16:45:18] <MattJ> which is what convinced me in the end that XEP-0198 cannot, and should not, be split
[16:45:35] <MattJ> despite my original desires :)
[16:45:38] <stpeter> heh
[16:46:16] <Fritzy> stpeter: sent my vote
[16:47:12] <stpeter> how about this?

In addition, this enables entities to establish which stanzas might need to be resent, thus reducing the likelihood that an entity will send or receive duplicate messages.

[16:47:50] <stpeter> s/messages/stanzas/
[16:49:13] <MattJ> Does it reduce the likelihood, or eliminate the possibility?
[16:49:19] <stpeter> well
[16:49:20] <Kev> Fritzy: 198 is draft, so this is in fact a real vote (i.e. your +1 is a +1, not a veto) :)
[16:49:22] <MattJ> I thought the latter, but I may be wrong
[16:49:34] <stpeter> to Fritzy's point, it might depend on how you use it
[16:49:47] <stpeter> eliminate is a strong word :)
[16:49:49] <Kev> (not a not a veto - I need XEP-correct)
[16:51:01] <stpeter> it's probably not good to overpromise
[16:53:47] <Fritzy> Kev: alright. :)
[16:54:20] <Fritzy> Kev: ah right,
[16:55:12] <Fritzy> MattJ: it depends on how it is used
[16:59:23] <stpeter> http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/tenth-council/ updated
[17:04:48] <ralphm> stpeter: cool. I also noticed that the bios on the Council page are outdated
[17:07:47] <stpeter> ralphm: we can give you editing privileges :)
[17:07:58] <stpeter> or send updates to the council@ list
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[19:44:22] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[19:46:19] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[19:50:41] *** Fritzy shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:55:10] *** Tobias has left the room
[19:55:31] *** Tobias has joined the room
[19:55:37] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "SCRAM-SUM-PLUS"
[19:56:20] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[19:57:38] *** Tobias has left the room
[19:58:06] *** Tobias has joined the room
[20:00:10] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[20:10:40] *** Fritzy shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:11:56] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[20:27:25] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[20:40:22] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[21:13:49] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being too idle"
[21:38:55] *** stpeter has left the room
[21:38:59] *** stpeter has joined the room
[21:43:49] *** MattJ shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of not being here"
[21:55:47] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[22:20:54] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:56:09] *** Kev shows as "online"
[23:02:13] *** Tobias has left the room
[23:05:50] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[23:22:05] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[23:31:19] *** Kev shows as "away"