XSF logo XMPP Council - 2011-03-16


  1. Kev has left
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  3. Kev !agendaappend XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html
  4. Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
  5. Kev !agendaup -6
  6. Kanchil+ Kev: 0) Fini.
  7. Kev !agendaup
  8. Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call
  9. Kev !agendaup -1
  10. Kanchil+ Kev: 0) Fini.
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  14. dwd !agenda
  15. dwd Oh. It's not here.
  16. dwd gives up and reads the scrollback instead.
  17. Kev It is here, it just won't listen to you
  18. Kev !agenda
  19. Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call 2) Agenda bashing 3) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Header Extensions Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtp-hdrext.html Accept as XEP? 4) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Feedback Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtcp-fb.html Accept as XEP? 5) Proposed XMPP Extension: Sensor-Over-XMPP http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html Accept as XEP? 6) XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html 7) Date of next meeting 8) Any other business Fini
  20. dwd Interesting. I don't see it...
  21. Kev Are you looking at the moderators?
  22. dwd Yes. Probably it's just that I really need to update my server to a recent build. :-)
  23. dwd Oh, either that or I got desynched at some point.
  24. Kev Could be.
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  35. stpeter ah, from my perspective today's Council meeting is shifted forward an hour -- I think European countries go forward on March 26, right?
  36. Kev Sounds right for the UK.
  37. stpeter great, I get to lose two hours this year because I'll be in Prague then
  38. Kev I was aware the US wasn't in sync with the UK (is it even in sync with itself?), that's why I warned everyone last week :)
  39. stpeter plus I lose that hour the night I arrive -- fun :)
  40. stpeter ah, the glamour of international travel
  41. stpeter crawls back under his rock to concentrate on document reviews for tomorrow's IESG telechat
  42. Kev Enjoy :)
  43. stpeter Kev: BTW I noticed http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Radar in the room subject -- perhaps I should delete that page or redirect it to http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/
  44. stpeter set the topic to XMPP Council Room | http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/
  45. linuxwolf has joined
  46. Kev One hour.
  47. Tobias has left
  48. Kev For those wondering about timezones :)
  49. linuxwolf (-:
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  53. stpeter hi Ralph and Fritzy!
  54. Fritzy howdy
  55. Kev Right, enough time to graba sammich :)
  56. linuxwolf !agenda
  57. linuxwolf Kanchil+ is so capricious
  58. stpeter maybe Kanchil ain't feeling so plus today
  59. Kev !agenda
  60. Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call 2) Agenda bashing 3) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Header Extensions Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtp-hdrext.html Accept as XEP? 4) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Feedback Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtcp-fb.html Accept as XEP? 5) Proposed XMPP Extension: Sensor-Over-XMPP http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html Accept as XEP? 6) XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html 7) Date of next meeting 8) Any other business Fini
  61. Kev Seems good to me :)
  62. stpeter :P
  63. Kev I do have a patch to make that command "anyone" instead of "owner", but haven't deployed it.
  64. Kev Anyway, it is time.
  65. Astro has joined
  66. Kev Fritzy, linuxwolf, ralphm: PIING :)
  67. Kev !agendaup
  68. Kanchil+ Kev: 1) Roll call
  69. Kev I'm here
  70. linuxwolf pong
  71. Kev MattJ sent apologies.
  72. ralphm woot
  73. Kev Fritzy: you there?
  74. Fritzy yeah
  75. Kev Jolly good.
  76. Kev !agendaup
  77. Kanchil+ Kev: 2) Agenda bashing
  78. Fritzy I like what we have today
  79. Kev No-one, then?
  80. Kev Jolly good :)
  81. linuxwolf I'd like to talk about..
  82. linuxwolf gah…slow down there, Tex
  83. stpeter :)
  84. Kev :)
  85. linuxwolf moving carbons fwd (-:
  86. linuxwolf that's it
  87. Kev !agendaappend Moving carbons forward.
  88. Kanchil+ Kev: Done.
  89. Kev !agendaup
  90. Kanchil+ Kev: 3) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Header Extensions Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtp-hdrext.html Accept as XEP?
  91. Kev I'm ok with this.
  92. linuxwolf +1
  93. Fritzy it seems fine to me +1
  94. Kev ralphm: ?
  95. ralphm I was wondering if sdp is used in combination with jingle
  96. dwd A question - is there any mileage in having entities advertise supported RTP headers via Disco as well?
  97. dwd ralphm, We basically use the same semantics as SDP but within an XML syntax, in Jingle.
  98. ralphm right
  99. Kev You know, CSN would be useful in MUCs sometimes...
  100. linuxwolf (-:
  101. stpeter dwd: sounds like a good question to ask on the jingle@ list
  102. stpeter Kev: in meetings, yes
  103. Fritzy dwd: I think that could be useful, and could easily be added to the spec... but I don't know the answer.
  104. linuxwolf to the list!
  105. Kev ralphm: Did you have an opinion on it right now?
  106. Fritzy I mean, it's already there
  107. ralphm I'm +1
  108. Kev Ta.
  109. Kev I'm assuming dwd volunteered to mail the list with the question.
  110. Kev !agendaup
  111. Kanchil+ Kev: 4) Proposed XMPP Extension: Jingle RTP Feedback Negotiation http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/rtcp-fb.html Accept as XEP?
  112. Kev I'm similarly +1 on this.
  113. linuxwolf also +1
  114. Fritzy yup, along the same lines +1
  115. Kev ralphm: ?
  116. dwd So as this is another SDP reframed, is it worth considering making a generic SDP-in-XML specification somewhere instead?
  117. dwd Otherwise someone has to "port" each new SDPism into Jingle, which seems unfortunate.
  118. stpeter dwd: I don't think SDP is generically-structured enough for that to be possible
  119. linuxwolf I seem to recall some attempt at that, but SDP isn't generic enough
  120. linuxwolf gah…beat by the saint
  121. ralphm +1
  122. ralphm dwd: right, that was really my point earlier but I got distracted
  123. Kev dwd: Is that volunteering to bring stuff up on list again?
  124. ralphm http://www.scribd.com/doc/95534/Jingle-Multimedia-Description-Using-SDP
  125. ralphm is something I found
  126. dwd I never volunteer. I might assign a staff member, though.
  127. MattJ has joined
  128. ralphm which looks horrible
  129. Fritzy haha, there you go
  130. linuxwolf maybe the council can volunteer dwd
  131. linuxwolf (-:
  132. dwd I can delegate to an underling. :-)
  133. ralphm minion, is the term
  134. stpeter I didn't realize dwd had minions
  135. stpeter heh
  136. Kev Oh, well, that's one way of wrapping SDP, I suppose.
  137. linuxwolf or peon
  138. dwd stpeter, Henchmen.
  139. Fritzy I have authenticated linuxwolf's identity by his backwards smile
  140. linuxwolf (-;
  141. Kev Ok, moving on then.
  142. Kev !agendaup
  143. Kanchil+ Kev: 5) Proposed XMPP Extension: Sensor-Over-XMPP http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensors.html Accept as XEP?
  144. linuxwolf oof
  145. Fritzy so, I have a concern
  146. linuxwolf that was a hard hard read
  147. Kev This one has enough problems that I'm tempted to -1 it.
  148. dwd I read most of that one. At least the first 270 pages.
  149. Kev Let me find them.
  150. Fritzy using pubsub to send commands (actuators in this case) is a mis-use.
  151. MattJ has left
  152. linuxwolf agreed
  153. Kev Fritzy: Actually, that's one thing that I'm not *too* worried about.
  154. linuxwolf the structuring is awkward…and the differences in timestamping..and ....
  155. dwd Fritzy, Erm... Perhaps. Queueing commands that should be processed by available actuators seems like a non-misuse.
  156. Kev The semantics seem to fit.
  157. ralphm I never considered solving this problem domain so generically
  158. stpeter dwd: I'll volunteer you for the IESG, then you'll find out about reading long documents...
  159. Fritzy really, this spec could be watered down to a payload schema and some basic intro.
  160. linuxwolf is surprised stpeter's desk has not collapsed from the weight of printed I-Ds
  161. Kev I had general XEPpish concerns. The XSD should be at the end, not upfront. The use cases shouldn't be duplicated.
  162. Kev Quibbles like SHOULDs for naming, with UUIDs ,and _data/_meta.
  163. Kev Wondering why it advertises iPhones particularly.
  164. dwd Kev, Also there was some redundant text, like the repeated use cases.
  165. stpeter Kev: right, and the timestamp stuff etc.
  166. Fritzy dwd: subtle
  167. Kev Extensibility should probably be through namespaced children, not through generic name/value pairs.
  168. ralphm for one thing I'd assume using URIs for defining types
  169. dwd Fritzy, In a brickesque manner.
  170. Kev Fritzy: From the department of redundancy department.
  171. linuxwolf it seems like something that could be split up
  172. Kev The examples aren't actually protocol examples, so there's no easy way of following what actually happens.
  173. dwd Personally I shuddered a bit at the bit where you specify the SI prefix.
  174. Kev I realised after reading that I hadn't noticed a namespace anywhere.
  175. Fritzy there is almost no protocol here
  176. Fritzy it is just a payload schema
  177. Fritzy with some naming convention advice
  178. stpeter ralphm's point is a good one -- do we need such a generic approach? (and have other standards groups defined such an approach already so that we can reuse their schema?)
  179. ralphm dwd: that too, I'd expect a numeric exponent
  180. Kev Fritzy: Yes, but that's not a good reason not to have a couple of example stanzas, just so you can see what's happening.
  181. Kev IMHO.
  182. Fritzy but yeah, I really dislike the idea of sending commands over pubsub -- especially the way they are.
  183. stpeter on the plus side, it does use "atto", "zepto", and "yocto" ;-)
  184. linuxwolf the few examples I think I see are partial protocol
  185. Kev stpeter: Yes, I was wondering if that was a plus side when I read it :)
  186. linuxwolf stpeter: yeah, I didn't see that as a plus (-:
  187. Kev linuxwolf: Yeah, but not whole stanzas, and not (I think) namespaced.
  188. linuxwolf definitely not namespaces
  189. linuxwolf s/namespaces/namespaced/
  190. Kev Which makes this invalid to implement, even if you read through all the pages.
  191. ralphm stpeter: tradionally, we've defined very application specific protocols, formats
  192. stpeter ralphm: right
  193. ralphm e.g. we used our own geo/address stuff instead of horribly long specs
  194. Fritzy yeah, I'm not opposed to this being a XEP
  195. ralphm and defined mappings, where needed
  196. Kev I don't know, this could be cleaned up, without significant underlying changes probably, so maybe I shouldn't block it.
  197. dwd One thing I did like is that none of the protocol actually defined anything new - this can be done, as I understand things, with a generic XEP-0060 service.
  198. Kev I don't object to the approach, I object to the document.
  199. Fritzy They should use ad-hoc commands for commands.
  200. linuxwolf heh
  201. Kev So I'm +/-0
  202. Fritzy and Matt earns another $.25
  203. ralphm dwd: we have multiple "payload format" specs, maybe this should be one
  204. stpeter BTW, I've been talking of late with a number of "smart grid" / "smart energy" folks and OASIS is defining a whole raft of payload formats, which we could send over XMPP instead of their current default (which is web services)
  205. linuxwolf Fritzy: tell hildjj he owes me $0.25
  206. MattJ has joined
  207. Kev stpeter: Excellent.
  208. Fritzy ralphm: agreed
  209. Fritzy stpeter: I've talked to some of those types too... but it's been about a year.
  210. linuxwolf sounds like we should link this XEP's authors with those folks
  211. ralphm I'm still not convinced it should be defined at the XSF, though
  212. stpeter (and in fact a number of people in the smart grid space are already using XMPP)
  213. Kev Ok, so, what does everyone think at this stage? I'm +-0
  214. linuxwolf -0
  215. stpeter hey, no +/- voting :P
  216. Kev -0 then :p
  217. linuxwolf that's the ticket!
  218. Fritzy sqrt(-1)
  219. linuxwolf Fritzy has to be irrational
  220. Fritzy I think this should be redrafted as an informational spec.
  221. Fritzy but perhaps...
  222. Kev Fritzy: Are you vetoing or not vetoing? (And ralphm the same)
  223. Fritzy thinking... give me a second
  224. ralphm -0
  225. Fritzy I don't want to discourage them from resubmitting, but I think they should resubmit.
  226. Fritzy I don't think this should go into experimental.
  227. Fritzy not in the standards track
  228. Kev So that's a veto, then?
  229. linuxwolf so that's -1?
  230. Fritzy yeah, -1
  231. Kev Ok, ta.
  232. stpeter units="celcius"?
  233. ralphm oh, -1 then
  234. ralphm :-D
  235. Fritzy units=votes
  236. ralphm obviously that should be Kelvin
  237. Kev ralphm: I'm to assume that's flippant, yes?
  238. ralphm Kev: yeah
  239. Kev Fritzy: You'll need to write up an explanation to standards@, with why it's vetod, and what the path forward is then :)
  240. Kev !agendaup
  241. Kanchil+ Kev: 6) XEP-0237: Roster Versioning Accept version 1.2? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0237/diff/1.1/vs/1.2rc1 http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0237-1.2.html
  242. Kev +1
  243. linuxwolf +1
  244. Fritzy Kev, will do
  245. MattJ +1 :)
  246. linuxwolf whoa
  247. Kev He's there!
  248. Kev Kinda.
  249. ralphm +1
  250. MattJ Yeah, kinda
  251. Fritzy +1
  252. MattJ In a busy office (that isn't mine), but I managed to get them to set me up with a network connection
  253. Kev !agendaup
  254. Kanchil+ Kev: 7) Moving carbons forward.
  255. Fritzy I'm in a castle.
  256. linuxwolf heh
  257. linuxwolf ok, so
  258. linuxwolf I'm hearing of lots of interest, and we've had a modicum of list discuss
  259. Kev linuxwolf: I have changes I want to make to this, that depend upon MattJ's as-yet-unsubmitted stuff.
  260. linuxwolf Kev: right
  261. Kev So I propose that Matt submits http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/forwarding.html
  262. linuxwolf I'm agreed, and ready to make the edits…once I have something to reference
  263. Fritzy looks up Modicum.
  264. Kev I update Carbons.
  265. Kev Or you do :)
  266. Kev Then we can advance it :)
  267. MattJ Sure
  268. linuxwolf I'm happy to update it
  269. linuxwolf it == message carbons
  270. ralphm so what is that the council needs to do now?
  271. Kev ralphm: Council, nothing. Council members (Matt/Matt) need to do stuff :)
  272. linuxwolf cajole Matthew into submitting forwarding (-:
  273. Kev With MattJ first.
  274. MattJ Yeah ok... perhaps I can set aside some time on Saturday
  275. MattJ I've been having lots of discussions that I need to incorporate
  276. linuxwolf /nod
  277. Kev MattJ: Oh, changes to this?
  278. linuxwolf I have some security concerns with as currently defined, but will wait until you have the update
  279. MattJ reads Kev's changes to recall
  280. linuxwolf s/with as/with it as/
  281. stpeter in time for next week's meeting I hope to review XEP-0065 one more time and perhaps request a vote on the revisions
  282. Kev stpeter: Ok, great.
  283. stpeter (trying to finish off the file transfer stuff)
  284. linuxwolf ooo…I'm just about down with a first draft BCP on resource locking
  285. linuxwolf (finally)
  286. Kev Great.
  287. MattJ 65? I need to update my implementation for that
  288. Kev So, we're done with this, I think.
  289. Kev !agendaup
  290. Kanchil+ Kev: 8) Date of next meeting
  291. Kev Next Wednesday 1600 GMT?
  292. MattJ Kev, the lacking thing in MAM/forwarding is specifying an archive-unique id for the message
  293. Fritzy I'm good with that. +1
  294. MattJ +1 for next week
  295. linuxwolf sure
  296. Kev MattJ: I thought that'd go in MAM, but it can go in forwarding I guess. That makes sense.
  297. stpeter MattJ: please have a look at http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0065-1.8.html and http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0065/diff/1.7/vs/1.8rc3 :)
  298. MattJ stpeter, thanks
  299. MattJ I also wanted to implement the Jingle IBB stuff at the same time
  300. MattJ Currently Verse only does Jingle+proxy65
  301. Kev Ok.
  302. Kev !agendaup
  303. Kanchil+ Kev: 9) Any other business
  304. Kev Anything else?
  305. MattJ Nay
  306. Fritzy 0
  307. linuxwolf world peace?
  308. Kev linuxwolf: Thanks for volunteering.
  309. Fritzy whirled peas
  310. linuxwolf I'd just nuke'em all
  311. ralphm Fritzy: peashake?
  312. stpeter calendar updated
  313. Kev Ok, then I guess we're done.
  314. linuxwolf humus?
  315. Kev stpeter: Thanks.
  316. MattJ Thanks stpeter
  317. Kev I'll do minutes tomorrowish.
  318. Kev I think we're done then
  319. Fritzy rad
  320. Kev Thanks all
  321. Fritzy thanks
  322. Kev bangs the gavel
  323. linuxwolf waits fwding
  324. stpeter has had no time to work on an April 1 spec, maybe next year...
  325. Kev !agendaup -10
  326. Kanchil+ Kev: -1) Fini.
  327. MattJ Kev, FTR I'm happy with the decision on sensor-over-XMPP, but I'll look at the Jingle stuff later
  328. linuxwolf adios all
  329. Kev MattJ: Ok, thanks.
  330. linuxwolf has left
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  332. stpeter likes Kev's 30-minute meeting philosophy
  333. MattJ :)
  334. Kev has left
  335. stpeter oh yay, another round of AUTH48 review just arrived in my inbox
  336. stpeter http://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc6121-diff.html in case you're curious :)
  337. dwd How long has your 48 hours been so far?
  338. stpeter about 47 so far
  339. stpeter er
  340. stpeter no
  341. stpeter 23
  342. stpeter I try to be quick
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