Wednesday, July 20, 2011
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

[00:59:29] <Neustradamus> Where will be XMPP/Jabber ? http://www.numerama.com/magazine/19348-la-mort-d-internet-se-confirme-un-peu-plus-a-bruxelles.html
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[14:43:14] <MattJ> Morning all
[14:43:59] <stpeter> greetings
[14:44:19] <stpeter> MattJ: still morning for you, I take it? :)
[14:44:33] <MattJ> Morning :)
[14:45:01] <MattJ> Is there a meeting today? It seemed like there wouldn't be, but now we have discussion items (?) but no agenda posted
[14:45:24] <stpeter> ask the boss :)
[14:45:30] <MattJ> I have a IRL meeting starting shortly, trying to figure if I need to try and reschedule
[14:45:34] <stpeter> aha
[14:45:37] <MattJ> (if that's possible)
[14:46:29] <MattJ> Kev, ?
[14:47:33] <MattJ> Ok, I need to dash - my apologies if the meeting does go ahead, I'll read the discussion and post on-list (hopefully today, but today is kind of hectic, so possibly tomorrow)
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[14:47:45] <stpeter> MattJ: no worries!
[14:50:02] <Kev> I'm here.
[14:50:06] <Kev> Yes, we have a Council.
[14:50:15] <Kev> There wasn't any suggestion on the list that there wouldn't be, AFAICR.
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[14:58:34] <ralphm> I'm here
[14:58:45] <linuxwolf> T - 0:04?
[14:58:56] <Kev> Yep.
[14:59:48] <linuxwolf> agenda? (I hate surprises, and not sure I followed everything correctly yesterday)
[15:00:19] <stpeter> MattJ had to attend an IRL meeting so it seems he won't be here
[15:00:34] <linuxwolf> stupid IRL
[15:00:43] <stpeter> yeah, who needs it :P
[15:00:43] <Kev> http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/keepalive.html
http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024722.html
http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024723.html
http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024625.html
[15:01:16] <linuxwolf> grazie
[15:01:30] *linuxwolf is getting confuzzled already today
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[15:02:45] <Kev> Dingding.
[15:03:04] <Kev> Oh, I have another agenda item, too. Will add to the AOB.
[15:03:06] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[15:03:11] <Kev> I be here.
[15:03:16] <Kev> MattJ sends apologies.
[15:03:27] <linuxwolf> presente
[15:03:32] <linuxwolf> I think
[15:03:51] <ralphm> HI
[15:03:59] <Kev> No sign of Fritzy online.
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[15:04:11] <ralphm> hmm, linuxwolf reminds me of fixing Gajim's list of styles I wish to accept
[15:04:22] <Kev> 2) http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/keepalive.html
Accept as XEP
[15:04:27] <linuxwolf> looks like we reached quorum.../whew
[15:04:49] <Kev> I'm not sure exactly what situations you'd need this in, but that doesn't seem like a reason to block Experimentalness.
[15:04:56] <linuxwolf> no objections from me
[15:04:59] <stpeter> Experimentality?
[15:05:03] <ralphm> funny how we need a protocol to send whitespace around, but sure
[15:05:16] <linuxwolf> Kev: trying to explain on list, there are networks where this kind of negotiation is helpful
[15:05:27] <stpeter> I admit that I haven't read all the messages on the list
[15:05:31] <linuxwolf> ralphm: it's those stupid mobiles and things (-:
[15:05:51] <Kev> linuxwolf: Right - *some* sort of keepalive is useful - it's not clear to me that including this in 198 negotiation or such isn't better.
[15:06:00] <ralphm> linuxwolf: I understand the purpose, but I just thought it was funny
[15:06:05] <Kev> But I'm not objecting to putting this out there.
[15:06:06] <stpeter> ralphm: it is :)
[15:06:40] <linuxwolf> Kev: that's a possibility…this individual at least wanted to get their thoughts out there
[15:06:49] <ralphm> it is great troll food
[15:07:08] <Kev> And I think, in fact, that the Right thing to do if you're missing a whitespace you're expecting, and thus are tempted to d/c the client, is to think "Oh, golly, I'm waiting for a whing and don't have one. I'll send a XEP-0199 ping and if I don't get a response terminate the connection".
[15:07:15] <Kev> Rather than relying purely on the whitespace.
[15:07:24] <linuxwolf> http://stash.norml.org/wp-content/uploads/please-do-not-feed-the-troll.jpg
[15:07:38] <stpeter> gosh I saw that JPEG just yesterday :)
[15:08:11] <ralphm> #3?
[15:08:19] <Kev> So, we've got these three Last Calls that finished.
[15:08:19] <linuxwolf> Kev: yeah, I don't know I agree with all of the strategies there…that, or wait for <n> "things"
[15:08:24] <linuxwolf> right
[15:08:49] <Kev> I'm assuming Peter would like us to vote on them going to Draft, so I guess we can do that next week.
[15:08:58] <Kev> And I'll agendarisice them.
[15:09:06] <Kev> stpeter: Yes?
[15:09:08] <linuxwolf> well, the week after
[15:09:20] <stpeter> Kev: seems appropriate
[15:09:21] <linuxwolf> (-:
[15:09:27] <Kev> linuxwolf: ?
[15:09:32] <linuxwolf> IETF is next week
[15:09:33] <stpeter> linuxwolf and I won't be here next week
[15:09:39] <stpeter> wel
[15:09:41] <stpeter> well
[15:09:47] <Kev> Ah, right.
[15:09:50] <ralphm> so this is the: 'go give them a final read' cue
[15:09:57] *stpeter figures out what time it will be then and what sessions will be happening
[15:09:58] <linuxwolf> still trying to get my slides together, too
[15:10:02] <Kev> ralphm: "Go give them a Draft read" :)
[15:10:10] <linuxwolf> (-:
[15:10:10] <ralphm> pft
[15:10:19] <Kev> Ok, so, date of next meeting - fortnight today?
[15:10:28] <linuxwolf> wfm
[15:10:39] <stpeter> I suppose I'll be in the CORE WG meeting at that time
[15:11:23] <Kev> Ok, I'll take that as OK from Ralph too :)
[15:11:32] <Kev> So, Any Other Busyness?
[15:11:44] <linuxwolf> (-;
[15:11:49] <Kev> I've got an item, for a change.
[15:11:53] <Kev> Anyone else?
[15:11:57] <linuxwolf> nay
[15:12:07] <stpeter> none here
[15:12:35] <Kev> OK - so.
[15:12:51] <Kev> This fun fun thread on aborting the XSF because Board and Council are a bunch of layabouts.
[15:13:00] <linuxwolf> ha yeah
[15:13:12] <linuxwolf> maybe we should lynch them
[15:13:53] <stpeter> Kev: is that how you interpreted what I said? because that was not the intent
[15:14:08] <ralphm> hehe
[15:14:08] <Kev> stpeter: No, but I think it was a subtext of the replies.
[15:14:11] <linuxwolf> stpeter: I think it was really the comments of others that lead us there
[15:14:17] <linuxwolf> s/us/him/
[15:14:27] <Kev> Where 'subtext' ~= 'The Mails"
[15:14:42] <stpeter> well, the Board and Council are not a bunch of layabouts!
[15:14:46] <Kev> Anyway, so, we should probably try and address this in some way.
[15:14:50] <ralphm> well, I guess the busy bees can start their own club. It's not like the XSF needs to be the One Ring
[15:14:51] <Kev> Even if 'this' is a perception.
[15:15:04] <stpeter> ralphm: :)
[15:15:25] <linuxwolf> ralphm: ¿viva le revolution?
[15:16:02] <Kev> I was thinking that one way of doing this might be for the outgoing Chair (oh boy I love making work for myself) for both Board and Council towards the end of term to produce a report of things like attendance through the term, missed votes, etc.
[15:16:12] <ralphm> more like: if you want change you can do three things: 1) whine, 2) apply for board/council and do (more?) stuff, 3) start your own club
[15:16:26] <stpeter> one little thing that would help, I think, is for the Board and Council chairs to send agendas for their meetings ~24 hours before each meeting to members@ and standards@ -- that might encourage more participation
[15:16:29] <ralphm> I wonder if it is more 1 than anything else
[15:16:31] <Kev> ralphm: I don't agree with that assesment.
[15:16:45] <linuxwolf> stpeter: that would help
[15:16:53] <Kev> It implies that the only people doing worthwhile things in the XSF are Board and Council, and I would dearly like to believe that to not be the case.
[15:17:14] <Kev> stpeter: We could do. Although this is less of an issue for Council than for Board.
[15:17:26] <stpeter> Kev: agreed
[15:17:30] <ralphm> Kev: agreed, but you mentioned that those two have all the lazy guys
[15:17:49] <Kev> In as much as anyone who cares about the Council agendas is welcome to either subscribe to or read the archives for the list where they're announced (and little else).
[15:18:02] <Kev> This isn't true of Board, so I'd certainly be in favour of advance agendas being made available there.
[15:18:12] <stpeter> Kev: true dat
[15:18:32] <Kev> I will send a mail to members@ and standards@ so people realise they can read the Council list.
[15:18:32] <linuxwolf> /nod
[15:18:49] <Kev> ralphm: Oh, no, I don't think so. I think everyone's lazy :)
[15:19:30] <ralphm> I'm also not sure if the (lack of) activity of the board is really something that needs to be discussed in the council.
[15:19:31] <linuxwolf> it could also help if council members could take a more active role in discussions
[15:19:49] <linuxwolf> Kev's already there, and I think I'm a distant second….
[15:20:13] <ralphm> as for the council and standardization in general, I too wonder how much more needs to be standardized. Over the last 10+ years we've made a whole lot of building blocks, and it isn't odd that we have most of them now.
[15:20:29] <Kev> ralphm: It doesn't hurt, since both Council and Board were accused of inactivity, to look at the bigger picture. I agree that Council can't mandate direction to Board.
[15:20:44] <stpeter> ralphm: yes, I think that's a lot of what is going on!
[15:21:41] <Kev> OK, so I'm taking from this that apart from me mailing to make sure people know they can find the Council agendas in advance (even if they're vague like this week - sorry about that, been a *little* busy) there aren't any current actions.
[15:21:56] <Kev> Any other busyness?
[15:22:27] <stpeter> none here
[15:22:29] <ralphm> I do agree that I don't participate much in the mailinglists anymore
[15:23:11] <ralphm> this might be because of what is actually being discussed
[15:23:26] <ralphm> the signal/noise ratio
[15:23:26] <linuxwolf> ralphm: I've had that problem (-
[15:23:50] <Kev> I *try* to participate on the lists - I figure that's one of the responsibilities of Council.
[15:23:54] <ralphm> I'd like to know if anyone shares this feeling
[15:24:24] <stpeter> ralphm: again, perhaps in large measure the topics aren't as "core" as they once were because we've defined so many extensions already
[15:24:26] <ralphm> and if we are actually developing standards there or that it is mostly editorial comments and 'helpdesk'
[15:24:46] <linuxwolf> for standards@, I don't think there's much noise there, personally
[15:24:49] <ralphm> I don't want to trash everyone on those lists, though, to be clear
[15:24:54] <Kev> There's still a reasonable amount of protocol discussion going on, and I don't think there's a lot of noise.
[15:25:12] <Kev> I grant I don't tend to pay attention to juser or the suchlike, but standards@ seems ok still.
[15:25:39] <linuxwolf> I'm not sure I'm still subscribed to juser… /-:
[15:25:49] <Kev> linuxwolf: I don't think this is a bad thing :)
[15:25:52] <Kev> Aaanyway.
[15:25:59] <stpeter> no AOB here :)
[15:26:07] <linuxwolf> none from me
[15:26:10] <Kev> I think we've worn this out for the moment, we can readdressif stuff happens on list.
[15:26:26] <ralphm> nod
[15:26:31] <linuxwolf> +1
[15:26:34] <Kev> I'll provide minutes at some point soonish. I've poked Fritzy for his pending votishness.
[15:26:37] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:26:41] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[15:26:51] <linuxwolf> grazie
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[15:26:56] <stpeter> thanks, guys!
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[15:35:40] <MattJ> Heh, just made it back from the meeting, I'll catch up here when I have a moment
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[15:37:14] <Kev> Ta. Only one action for you - the Whing spec.
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[15:56:36] <MattJ> Can't we call them whips instead?
[15:56:41] <MattJ> Prosody already has a mod_smacks...
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