Tuesday, December 20, 2011
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[16:59:53] <stpeter> meeting begins in 1 minute?
[16:59:58] <Kev> It does.
[17:00:09] <stpeter> it seems that some pokage in order :)
[17:00:33] <Kev> I've poked Ralph.
[17:00:38] <Kev> I don't see Tobias or Matt online.
[17:00:39] <stpeter> aha ok
[17:01:02] <stpeter> seems not
[17:01:12] <linuxwolf> /-;
[17:01:35] <stpeter> clearly these guys don't live by the calendar
[17:01:43] <Kev> Matt's just come online.
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[17:02:19] <MattJ> Sorry I'm late - someone was using my computer :)
[17:02:40] <Kev> The cheek.
[17:02:44] <MattJ> Indeed
[17:02:50] <Kev> Well, we have quorum.
[17:02:56] <linuxwolf> /whew
[17:03:03] <Kev> Or a quorum, probably.
[17:03:32] <Kev> So, assuming we're keeping last term's lateness rules in place, let's start.
[17:03:34] *stpeter tweets the meeting since denting seems to be impossible at the moment
[17:03:36] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[17:03:37] <Kev> I'm here.
[17:03:43] <linuxwolf> presente
[17:03:45] <MattJ> Here
[17:04:00] <Kev> 2) DMUC3
[17:04:06] <MattJ> Heh
[17:04:06] <Kev> We should really make a decision about this.
[17:04:16] <linuxwolf> /sigh
[17:04:24] <Kev> I don't like it, but I'm abstaining from a veto.
[17:04:35] <Kev> Have you both read this now
[17:04:36] <MattJ> cat fmuc.xml | sed 's/proxy/mirror/g'
[17:04:36] <Kev> ?
[17:04:46] <stpeter> :)
[17:05:03] <linuxwolf> I have, and yes, DMUC3 looks a lot like a FMUC
[17:05:06] <MattJ> Now, it *does* have some differentiating text
[17:05:25] <MattJ> So I'm just going to assume they used FMUC as a base as it was closest to what they wanted
[17:05:34] <Kev> (I note that we now have an implementation of FMUC, and I have updates to do once I'm not 'on holiday' in the new year accordingly)
[17:05:36] <stpeter> MattJ: so it seems
[17:05:47] <MattJ> But considering the end result is still somewhat the FMUC flow, I'm not sure we need another XEP doing the same thing
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[17:06:05] <linuxwolf> especially considering FMUC is still experimental
[17:06:07] <MattJ> I'd rather the author's feedback on why FMUC doesn't work for them, and how it can be made to work
[17:06:10] <MattJ> Indeed
[17:06:15] <linuxwolf> precisely
[17:06:15] <Tobias> hi
[17:06:22] <Kev> Hi Tobias.
[17:07:00] <stpeter> MattJ: true, that would be helpful
[17:07:14] <Kev> It turns out that FMUC is pretty easy to implement, especially in fire-and-forget mode, so I'm expecting MattJ will be implementing this in Prosody shortly after I update the XEP :)
[17:07:26] <linuxwolf> (-:
[17:07:35] <Kev> Then I'll probably call for a move to draft, as we'll have two (hopefully interopping) implementations :)
[17:07:49] <stpeter> FWIW, I've been having some chats with people off-list about distributed chat (e.g., doing a better job of defining the requirements)
[17:07:49] <Kev> But I have to drastically improve the state of the XEP before then.
[17:07:55] <MattJ> Kev, interestingly I already implemented it before you published the XEP :)
[17:08:01] <Kev> stpeter: Yes, so've I.
[17:08:13] <linuxwolf> so, the action on DMUC3 … reject with a request from the authors to explain what's broken in FMUC?
[17:08:14] <MattJ> But without the remote MUC sending just one stanza per event to the proxy
[17:08:28] <Kev> MattJ: So...isn't that MUC, then? :)
[17:08:39] <MattJ> The problem with FMUC is that it requires the primary MUC to support it
[17:08:44] <Kev> Ah, right.
[17:08:50] <MattJ> Kev, well if s2s went down, the users could still chat locally
[17:08:57] <Kev> Gotcha.
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[17:09:21] <Kev> This doesn't need any extra protocol work, to do it your way.
[17:09:32] <MattJ> Agreed
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[17:09:43] <MattJ> linuxwolf, I agree
[17:09:46] <Kev> It doesn't cover the use cases for (F|D)MUC, though :)
[17:09:55] <Kev> Well, not some of them, anyway.
[17:10:05] <MattJ> Yep
[17:10:11] <Kev> linuxwolf: That seems reasonable to me.
[17:10:18] <stpeter> I've also reached out to the folks at http://www.cococorp.com/ -- they have an implementation of XMPP over NORM (RFC 5740) that seems to be quite interesting and I would like to make sure that anything that's defined for link-local-ish chat would work with distributed chatrooms (I have a sense that this would be the case for FMUC, but I'm not sure yet)
[17:10:19] <Kev> As someone abstaining :D
[17:10:22] *** Lance Stout shows as "online"
[17:10:43] <Kev> stpeter: Ok.
[17:10:55] <linuxwolf> ok, I'll take the responsibility of rejecting DMUC3 then (-:
[17:11:08] <linuxwolf> I'll get something on the list before the end of the week
[17:11:09] <Kev> Ta.
[17:11:23] <Kev> 3) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/ft-metadata.html
[17:11:30] <Kev> I don't see any particular reason to reject this.
[17:12:07] <linuxwolf> no objections from me
[17:12:27] <MattJ> Especially when the examples mention my party
[17:12:31] <MattJ> +1
[17:12:48] <Kev> Incidentally, does anyone mind that my flow is usually:
Present item
Express my opinion
[17:12:49] <Tobias> how does it and file transfer thumbnails work together?
[17:13:00] <Tobias> isn't that metadata too?
[17:13:01] <Kev> It occurs to me that this could potentially be considered leading the discussion the way the Chair wants it.
[17:13:19] <MattJ> Kev, nope, go ahead :)
[17:13:24] <Kev> Equally, I consider you all sufficiently independent to not be put off by it ;)
[17:13:34] <MattJ> I pay more attention to linuxwolf, I agree with everything he says
[17:13:35] <Kev> Excellent.
[17:13:39] <linuxwolf> Kev: I'll call you out if I think there's over bias (-:
[17:13:39] <Kev> Tobias: It is, yes.
[17:13:39] <stpeter> thumbnails = http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0264.html
[17:13:44] <linuxwolf> haha
[17:13:50] <MattJ> +1
[17:14:03] <Kev> Tobias: I don't *think* it conflicts with that - do you think it does?
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[17:14:19] <Kev> Or are you suggesting they should be rolled together?
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[17:15:02] <Tobias> Kev, right...the reference to the thumbnail could be included in the metadata form as a field
[17:15:07] <linuxwolf> I'd prefer we figure out a way to add things without rolling all of these meta-data things into one über-meta-spec
[17:15:27] <stpeter> yay, über-meta!
[17:15:49] <linuxwolf> but I'd not object to rolling everything together
[17:15:53] <Kev> So, what's the tone here? Accept it and extend it for other extensions, or reject for not being complete?
[17:16:03] <Kev> I'm on the first of these.
[17:16:03] <linuxwolf> especially considering that thumbnail is currently deferred
[17:16:11] <linuxwolf> I
[17:16:13] <linuxwolf> gah
[17:16:15] <Tobias> Kev, pidgin transfers thumbnails via bits of binary
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[17:16:30] <stpeter> linuxwolf: it was deferred mostly because we were waiting to finish the other FT specs
[17:16:30] <linuxwolf> I'd accept as is, and work in extensions by draft
[17:16:37] <stpeter> linuxwolf: wfm
[17:16:38] <Tobias> right
[17:16:38] <Kev> Does anyone disagree with this?
[17:16:45] <Tobias> i'm all okay for accepting it as experimental
[17:16:51] <MattJ> I agree with linuxwolf
[17:16:54] <Kev> Cool.
[17:17:00] <Kev> 4) 47 to Final
[17:17:08] <Kev> Which I think means
47 Last Call.
[17:17:13] <Kev> Ahem.
[17:17:14] <Kev> CFI
[17:17:20] <MattJ> +1
[17:17:41] <linuxwolf> +1
[17:17:52] <Tobias> +1
[17:18:07] <stpeter> those Final XEPs are so lonely, they need some more friends...
[17:18:24] <MattJ> :)
[17:18:31] <Kev> Ok. Peter gets to issue a CFE then. Lucky Peter :)
[17:18:32] <linuxwolf> let's make sure every t is dotted and i is crossed, though (-:
[17:18:35] <Kev> (+1)
[17:18:44] <Kev> 5) 292 to Draft
[17:18:48] <Kev> I think this is premature.
[17:18:58] <stpeter> I won't issue the CFE until January
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[17:19:43] <stpeter> oh yes 292 to Draft is premature, maybe I mentioned it to figure out how we can get it to Draft eventually -- sorry about that
[17:19:43] <Kev> We already have a widely deployed vCard standard. It's icky and may well be Wrong, but I think advancing 292 until there's implementation experience seems premature.
[17:20:04] <Tobias> isn't that even implemented somewhere vCard4 over XMPP?
[17:20:08] <Tobias> *is
[17:20:22] <linuxwolf> Tobias: not yet, that I'm aware of
[17:20:28] <Kev> Tobias: No, but if Peter says I misread his intention, we can move along :)
[17:20:33] <MattJ> Link Mauve has a module for Prosody, but it's experimental at the moment
[17:20:33] <Tobias> k
[17:20:42] <Kev> 5) 45 1.25.
[17:20:53] <MattJ> +1
[17:20:54] <Kev> I'd like to do this next year.
[17:21:02] <linuxwolf> agreed
[17:21:07] <linuxwolf> I need to re-read it again
[17:21:09] <MattJ> I read the whole thing last night... :)
[17:21:10] <stpeter> yeah it's rather large
[17:21:11] <Kev> As I'm 'on holiday' until then, and would rather not spend my time off reading all of 45.
[17:21:14] <stpeter> MattJ: good for you :)
[17:21:17] <MattJ> last "morning" night
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[17:21:19] <stpeter> Kev: fully agree!
[17:21:47] <Kev> Ok. So we're agreed to discuss it next year then, fab.
[17:21:53] <Kev> 7) Date of next meeting.
[17:22:10] <Kev> January 4th, 5pm GMT?
[17:22:25] <MattJ> +1
[17:22:37] <linuxwolf> -1; other commitments
[17:22:43] <Kev> 11th?
[17:22:51] <MattJ> +1
[17:22:53] <Tobias> +1
[17:22:56] <linuxwolf> I can do 1/3 @ 17:00 UTC
[17:22:58] <stpeter> I'll likely be slammed on the 4th with IESG reading
[17:23:17] *linuxwolf checks calendar some more
[17:23:18] <MattJ> stpeter, the IESG doesn't take a holiday for Christmas? :)
[17:23:20] <stpeter> 11th is fine with me
[17:23:31] <stpeter> MattJ: we do, sort of, but we have a big telechat on the 5th
[17:24:03] <linuxwolf> I'll have to get back to you about the 11th … I have a standing meeting at that time, but my participation is not always mandatory
[17:24:16] <linuxwolf> Wednesdays and Thursdays are very meeting heavy for me
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[17:24:30] <Kev> Should we be doing a different day, then?
[17:24:45] *stpeter can attest to linuxwolf's meeting madness
[17:24:56] <Kev> I would rather neither Monday or Friday, but Tuesday seems generally doable for me.
[17:25:20] <linuxwolf> I was able to do 16:00 UTC … 17:00UTC is 10:00 MST, which is when everyone else schedules their meetings /-:
[17:25:24] <stpeter> Tuesday is better than Wednesday for me, at least through the end of March
[17:25:47] <Kev> linuxwolf: Ah, so it's all Tobias's fault. That makes sense.
[17:25:49] <linuxwolf> Tuesdays are better, although I'd likely miss every 3rd meeting
[17:25:52] <linuxwolf> (-:
[17:26:00] <Tobias> i could do tuesdays too
[17:26:01] <Kev> Tuesday 3rd January 1700?
[17:26:05] <linuxwolf> wfm
[17:26:20] <Kev> (With a plan to make this the regular slot)
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[17:26:29] <Tobias> okay
[17:26:31] <MattJ> +1
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[17:27:03] <Kev> Ok.
[17:27:06] <linuxwolf> /whew
[17:27:07] <Kev> 8) Any other business?
[17:27:22] <MattJ> Not here
[17:27:59] <stpeter> although the 4th would be an appropriate date for a meeting, given that Jer released jabberd on January 4, 1999 ;-)
[17:28:25] <linuxwolf> so we'll celebrate the eve of the release (-:
[17:28:54] <Kev> Right.
[17:28:55] <linuxwolf> no aob from me
[17:28:58] <Kev> Ok, I tihnk we're done.
[17:29:00] <Kev> Thanks all
[17:29:00] *stpeter updates the calendar
[17:29:06] <Kev> Consider yourselves gavelbanged.
[17:29:10] <linuxwolf> ouch
[17:29:12] <linuxwolf> (-:
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[17:29:35] <Tobias> :)
[17:30:56] <Tobias> stpeter, btw: do you wheter MSFT's OAuth2 authentication for their XMPP interface is using the new OAuth SASL mechanism http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-kitten-sasl-oauth-00.txt ?
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[17:31:36] <Tobias> i have the feeling not but i thought you might know more
[17:32:41] <stpeter> Tobias: I am not sure, but I can inquire
[17:32:55] <stpeter> I also want to find out if they have plans for s2s
[17:33:37] <Tobias> i mean if they decide on OAuth it'd a nice move of them to go along with that draft or if it's not what they want discuss it with the authors of that draft
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[17:34:43] <stpeter> MattJ: thanks for the MUC notes
[17:34:47] <MattJ> np
[17:34:49] <stpeter> Tobias: indeed :)
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[17:37:53] <stpeter> Tobias: ok I've pinged one of my MS contacts
[17:37:59] <Tobias> thx
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[17:38:40] *stpeter goes back to reviewing the issues at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/trac/report/1 :(
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[18:17:11] <stpeter> ok, that's done! :)
[18:17:22] <stpeter> IRIs are the bane of my existence
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[18:41:26] <MattJ> I read "IRS" at first
[18:45:17] <stpeter> heh
[18:45:25] <stpeter> I haven't had trouble with the IRS in quite some time
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