Wednesday, January 18, 2012
council@muc.xmpp.org
January
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
            1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
         
XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

[00:07:04] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[00:07:30] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[00:17:12] *** Kooda shows as "away"
[00:22:02] *** Tobias has left the room
[03:15:33] *** linuxwolf has joined the room
[03:23:45] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[07:43:44] *** Kev has joined the room
[07:43:44] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:55:29] *** Tobias has joined the room
[11:55:32] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[14:11:49] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[14:25:54] *** MattJ has joined the room
[14:31:07] <Kev> I only set aside 2 1/2 hours for reviewing MUC changes. At my current rate of progress, this was a bad move.
[14:31:15] <linuxwolf> yes, yes it was
[14:31:28] <linuxwolf> I should know, I did the same
[14:31:54] <linuxwolf> at least I don't have wikipedia and cheezburgers to distract me today
[14:31:56] <linuxwolf> (-:
[14:34:08] *MattJ laughs at you all
[14:34:28] <linuxwolf> well, I'm halfway through now
[14:34:40] <linuxwolf> since my 2.5 hours started yesterday d-:
[14:50:46] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:51:59] <Kev> Taking phone calls can only help my progress :)
[14:56:32] <Kev> I reckon I'm at least 15% through now.
[14:56:52] <Kev> So at this rate I should finish...
[14:56:59] <Kev> no, that's wrong. I shouldn't.
[14:57:07] <Tobias> yeah..we should set a limit on the size of a diff between two versions ^^
[14:57:38] <Kev> I've already decided there's bits in here I don't think should be, so maybe I should just -1 and forget about reading the rest :D
[15:00:46] *** MattJ shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:05:45] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[15:12:40] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[15:22:32] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[15:25:18] <Kev> Oooh, extending our use of 2119 in XEPs? I don't think I've noticed us use SHALL instead of MUST before.
[15:28:12] <linuxwolf> this is the first I can recall
[15:36:48] <MattJ> I'm not sure it's the first, unless I'm thinking of the RFCs
[15:40:08] <Kev> 22 minutes to go, and I'm about 40% through. I'm sure it's about to get easier...
[15:45:15] *** Kooda shows as "online" and his status message is "-e"
[15:45:21] *** Kooda shows as "online"
[15:46:22] *** stpeter has joined the room
[15:49:01] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[15:52:13] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[15:59:17] <Kev> 50%!
[15:59:21] <Kev> Tearing through now.
[16:00:02] <stpeter> we can always delay consideration again :)
[16:00:44] <Kev> Well, we've got a fortnight to vote on list anyway.
[16:00:51] <Kev> Just looks like I'll need to take advantage of it.
[16:00:52] <stpeter> oh true
[16:00:59] <linuxwolf> (-:
[16:01:13] <Kev> (I'd forgotten it was 1600 and not 1700 today, in truth, which knocked my plan out a little)
[16:01:42] *stpeter joins the IETF Tools Team call
[16:02:22] <Kev> Right, it's time.
[16:02:41] *** Tobias has joined the room
[16:02:43] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[16:02:57] <Kev> I've poked Ralph.
[16:03:02] <Kev> 1) Roll call
[16:03:03] <Tobias> so..i'm here
[16:03:05] <Kev> I'm here.
[16:03:10] <linuxwolf> presente
[16:04:02] <Kev> MattJ: ?
[16:04:08] <MattJ> Present
[16:04:23] <Kev> 2) http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0045/diff/1.24/vs/1.25rc10
Accept 1.25?
[16:04:28] <MattJ> +1
[16:04:53] <linuxwolf> I found a typo in one of the examples, and I'm not sure *admin* is used consistently
[16:05:11] <linuxwolf> typo: <item affiliation='outcast'>
          jid='lordscroop@shakespeare.lit'>
[16:05:13] <Tobias> +1
[16:05:19] <Tobias> although some bugs
[16:05:21] <linuxwolf> should be: <item affiliation='outcast'
          jid='lordscroop@shakespeare.lit'>
[16:05:24] <Kev> I have a significant gripe with 1.25, so far, in the use of occupants that don't send presence.
[16:05:31] <Tobias>
Reply XML NS doesn't match the one of the request.
http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0045/diff/1.24/vs/1.25rc10#added-diff-155

Limit history by characters. Why not by number of messages?
http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0045/diff/1.24/vs/1.25rc10#added-diff-422
[16:07:05] <Kev> I know this is a feature that we want, but I'm not sure the problem is well-understood enough to put it in right now. Particularly, it seems to suggest you could have members that are sending messages but not being shown as occupants through presence, and this seems like something that could break clients (and *possibly* servers, although that's less clear).
[16:07:43] <Tobias> .
[16:07:53] <Kev> (I'm seeing if anyone responds to my comment)
[16:08:20] <Kev> No-one has thoughts on this?
[16:08:25] <MattJ> I don't mind it
[16:08:30] *** Hirotaka Sato has joined the room
[16:08:30] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:08:31] <MattJ> No client I know of breaks
[16:08:35] <linuxwolf> I know of at least one MUC implementation that is doing that today, and have not seen catastrophic consequences
[16:08:52] <MattJ> bitlbee displays as "unknown occupant" or something
[16:09:01] <stpeter> linuxwolf: typo fixed
[16:09:15] <linuxwolf> a lot appear to just ignore those presences
[16:09:48] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:10:05] <stpeter> Tobias: xmlns mismatch fixed
[16:10:08] <Kev> linuxwolf: Is this in an Internetish environment? (i.e. is this being exposed to a large selection of clients)
[16:10:25] <linuxwolf> it was at one point
[16:10:33] <linuxwolf> I'm not sure if it still is
[16:10:34] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:10:58] <linuxwolf> jabber.com
[16:11:14] <Kev> If we have sufficient confidence that nothing's going to break with such a (seemingly, to me anyway) major change, I won't grumble too much.
[16:11:25] <MattJ> I'm happy with it
[16:11:35] <linuxwolf> I vaguely remember a version of OpenFire doing this, too … not sure it still does
[16:11:35] <Tobias> i have no problem with it either
[16:11:44] <Kev> I have another gripe about redefining 'room JID', especially given that we then continue to use the old definition.
[16:12:25] <Kev> But I think the no-presence thing was my only material complaint about the first half of the document. I'll finish reviewing the second half and post my comments to standards@.
[16:13:11] <linuxwolf> to be fair, I'm not sure I like the unavailable presence thing, either … but I'm not sure I don't like it (-:
[16:13:21] <Kev> I'd like to -1 this right now, but I anticipate the required changes to be relatively minor before pushing 1.26.
[16:13:54] <Kev> linuxwolf: By the 'unavailable presence thing', do you mean what I mentioned above, or something else?
[16:13:54] <linuxwolf> you mean 1.25 (-:
[16:14:04] <Kev> I mean 1.25rc11, yes.
[16:14:31] <linuxwolf> hold on, I need to re-read
[16:14:39] <linuxwolf> you might need to ignore that bit from me (-:
[16:14:50] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:15:08] <linuxwolf> no, I meant the message without available presence … sometimes I intermingle unavailable with no avaiable (-:
[16:15:18] <Kev> Ok, so that's the same thing I mentioned, then.
[16:16:17] <Kev> I'd be much much happier if we said something like "You can have rooms where visitors don't broadcast presence", because that avoids ever receiving a message from someone that you don't receive presence from.
[16:16:57] <Kev> (And I think this resolves all the use cases I've heard for this, but I could be wrong)
[16:17:01] <Kev> But anyway.
[16:17:05] <MattJ> I'd be happy with that too
[16:17:25] <MattJ> I've used the <message>-with-no-<presence> thing a lot
[16:17:34] <Kev> Do we need to discuss -45 any further here? I think everyone's +1 except me, who's -1 and will post a more complete review to standards@
[16:17:37] <Kev> MattJ: In MUCs?
[16:17:41] <MattJ> but I've always been aware it's somewhat abusing the spec
[16:17:49] <MattJ> but nothing has ever broken, so I do it anyway
[16:18:05] <Kev> Although I note that it's ok to send in messages from someone who's not an occupant, so maybe it's irrelevant.
[16:18:09] <MattJ> so I'm not against it entering the XEP, but I'm happy either way - I can see some valid use-cases for it in general
[16:18:30] <Kev> Ok, I withdraw that particular objection. But I'm still -1 pending some minor points, or being told they're wrong.
[16:18:36] <MattJ> Sure
[16:18:41] <linuxwolf> well, maybe it's moved to a secondary spec
[16:18:48] <linuxwolf> gah
[16:18:56] <linuxwolf> maybe it can be moved to a secondary spec
[16:19:06] <Kev> linuxwolf: The problem is that moving to a secondary spec doesn't work, because it's the clients that *don't* support it that receive the unexpected messages.
[16:19:07] *linuxwolf is distracted by a DANE flamewar
[16:19:35] <linuxwolf> fair enough
[16:19:52] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:19:52] <Kev> But it's true that the spec hasn't prohibited messages from people who truly aren't occupants, so it's immaterial - clients that don't cope were already buggy :)
[16:20:09] <Kev> So moving ever so swiftly on.
[16:20:15] <Kev> 3) Date of next meeting.
[16:20:31] <Kev> We should try and find a time that works for everyone.
[16:20:36] <Kev> (and stick to it)
[16:20:40] <linuxwolf> (-:
[16:21:04] *linuxwolf checks calendar
[16:21:07] <Kev> Tobias: This slot is bad for you, usually, isn't it?
[16:21:14] <Kev> linuxwolf: And sometimes bad for you?
[16:21:22] <linuxwolf> this slot is just fine for me
[16:21:23] <Tobias> nope..works fine
[16:21:27] <linuxwolf> it's 1700 that's problematic
[16:21:27] <MattJ> wfm
[16:21:32] <Kev> Ok, great.
[16:21:47] <Kev> So Wednesdays at 1600Z as a recurring date?
[16:21:52] <Tobias> okay
[16:22:04] <linuxwolf> wfm
[16:22:16] <Kev> Lovely.
[16:22:20] <Kev> 4) Any other business?
[16:22:27] <stpeter> Kev: I look forward to your more extensive comments on 45
[16:22:39] <stpeter> shall I create a calendar entry for a meeting next week?
[16:22:45] <Kev> Yes please :)
[16:22:52] <stpeter> (and naturally we also need input from Ralph on 45)
[16:23:01] <Kev> Right.
[16:23:54] <Kev> Well, we don't, really.
[16:24:16] <Kev> I mean - we do next time it comes to vote, but if anyone -1s, everyone else is irrelevant :)
[16:24:42] <Tobias> k..so that's it?
[16:24:48] <stpeter> Kev: (and naturally we would also love input from Ralph on 45)
[16:24:50] <Kev> I don't see other business.
[16:24:55] <Kev> stpeter: Yes, we would :)
[16:24:55] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:25:02] <Kev> Ok, all done then.
[16:25:02] <Tobias> nice...see you guys later or so
[16:25:05] <Kev> Thanks all
[16:25:08] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[16:25:11] <linuxwolf> heh
[16:25:12] <MattJ> Thanks :)
[16:25:14] <linuxwolf> adios
[16:25:18] *stpeter continues monitoring the IETF Tools Team call
[16:25:31] *linuxwolf contemplates grumbling at DNS 'experts'
[16:26:29] <linuxwolf> sometimes I wonder if these people realize that DNS is not pure theory (-:
[16:26:34] <stpeter> heh yeah
[16:28:59] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[16:29:58] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:35:02] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:38:58] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[16:40:05] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:45:07] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:50:10] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "online"
[16:53:04] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:53:04] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[16:54:25] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[16:54:28] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[16:55:12] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:00:13] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:05:15] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:10:17] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:15:19] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:16:43] *** Zash has joined the room
[17:16:44] *** Zash shows as "online"
[17:20:22] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:25:24] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:28:07] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:28:39] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[17:30:27] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:35:30] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:40:32] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:45:34] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:50:37] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[17:55:40] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:00:41] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:05:43] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:10:46] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:15:46] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:18:17] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:19:55] *** Kooda shows as "online"
[18:20:48] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:25:49] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:28:17] *** MattJ shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:30:53] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:35:55] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:36:19] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[18:40:57] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:45:01] *** Zash has left the room
[18:45:10] *** Zash has joined the room
[18:45:10] *** Zash shows as "online"
[18:45:59] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:51:00] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[18:51:55] *** Kev has left the room
[18:56:04] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:01:06] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:06:08] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:10:20] *** Kev has joined the room
[19:10:21] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:11:10] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:11:49] *** Kev has left the room
[19:12:35] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[19:13:56] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[19:13:59] *** Kev has joined the room
[19:14:00] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:15:21] *** Kooda shows as "away"
[19:16:13] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:21:15] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:22:35] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[19:26:16] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:30:51] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[19:31:17] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:36:18] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:37:46] *** MattJ has left the room
[19:41:21] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:46:23] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:51:26] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:56:28] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:01:15] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:01:19] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[20:01:29] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:06:30] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:11:32] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:16:34] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:21:38] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:26:40] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:31:41] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:34:39] *** linuxwolf shows as "online" and his status message is "It's not "Take All day to Put In Your Turn Academy""
[20:36:43] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:41:44] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:46:46] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:48:30] *** Zash has left the room
[20:51:47] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[20:56:49] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:01:51] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:06:52] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:11:55] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:16:57] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:21:58] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:27:00] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:32:02] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:37:05] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:42:06] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:44:16] *** Tobias has joined the room
[21:44:18] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[21:47:08] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:52:11] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[21:57:14] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:02:16] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:07:18] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:12:19] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:17:21] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:19:09] *** Tobias has left the room
[22:20:19] *** Tobias has joined the room
[22:20:49] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:21:26] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[22:22:23] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:27:26] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:31:27] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:31:32] *** Kev has left the room
[22:32:27] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:37:31] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:37:34] *** stpeter has left the room
[22:37:41] *** stpeter has joined the room
[22:42:34] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:47:36] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:52:40] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[22:57:44] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:01:37] *** Tobias has left the room
[23:02:46] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:07:49] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:12:51] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:17:55] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:20:00] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[23:21:40] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[23:22:58] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:25:05] *** linuxwolf has left the room
[23:28:01] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:33:03] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:38:05] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:43:08] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:48:11] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:53:14] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:58:17] *** Hirotaka Sato shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"