Wednesday, April 18, 2012
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:47:53] *ralphm waves
[14:49:50] <stpeter> :)
[14:50:38] <Tobias> howdy
[14:52:04] <Kev> Hi Ralph.
[14:53:18] <Kev> Can we just vote on http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/message-archive-management.html regardless of Matt not submitting it yet?
[14:53:35] <Kev> He posted to the list some time ago that we could consider that his submission if he didn't get around to it...and he hasn't.
[14:54:07] <stpeter> lazy bastard
[14:54:17] <ralphm> are we force-fed specs now
[14:54:18] <ralphm> ?
[14:55:06] <stpeter> heh
[14:56:42] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
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[14:57:23] <linuxwolf> Kev: take authorship … I think I remember MattJ offering that to you at one point (-:
[14:58:01] *** MattJ has joined the room
[14:58:27] <stpeter> speak of the devil!
[14:59:14] <MattJ> I'm in a conf meeting that looks like it might overrun
[14:59:22] <ralphm> hi devel^WMattJ
[14:59:34] <ralphm> hm
[14:59:36] <ralphm> oh well
[14:59:51] <MattJ> I'll try and pull myself out in a few
[15:00:31] *** linuxwolf shows as "dnd" and his status message is "XSF Council"
[15:00:39] <linuxwolf> ugh
[15:01:46] <Kev> ralphm / Tobias / linuxwolf: Do you guys mind waiting 5mins then to see if MattJ can escape?
[15:01:55] <Tobias> nope..i don't mind
[15:02:04] <linuxwolf> uh
[15:02:09] <linuxwolf> I guess not ...
[15:02:21] <MattJ> Thanks
[15:02:31] <ralphm> Kev: do you think we have to wait like for the MAM spec?
[15:02:31] <linuxwolf> I have a hard stop at 9:30
[15:02:34] <linuxwolf> MDT
[15:02:39] <linuxwolf> 15:30 UTC?
[15:02:44] <Kev> That's 30mins from now.
[15:02:46] <stpeter> right
[15:02:49] <linuxwolf> exactly
[15:02:55] <stpeter> Matt is Meeting Man!
[15:03:00] <linuxwolf> heh
[15:03:02] <ralphm> that's a great time to stop anyway
[15:03:03] <stpeter> well, Meeting Man™
[15:03:05] <linuxwolf> today is my light day
[15:03:08] <ralphm> we shouldn't need the full time
[15:03:24] *stpeter works to get his inbox below 50 messages
[15:04:24] *linuxwolf is ticked off at the removal of "javascript:" bookmark url support
[15:04:54] <stpeter> really?
[15:04:56] <stpeter> that's wrong
[15:04:56] <linuxwolf> yeah
[15:05:09] <linuxwolf> it's a Security Exploit
[15:05:12] <linuxwolf> apparently
[15:06:16] <Kev> That's a little irritating.
[15:07:10] <linuxwolf> it's why I bounce between Chrome and FF at this point
[15:08:06] <linuxwolf> if I could type "http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep45" and have it "do the right thing", I would be happy (-:
[15:08:21] <MattJ> Ok, let's go
[15:08:23] <linuxwolf> well, not irritated
[15:08:27] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[15:08:28] <Kev> I'm here.
[15:08:32] <linuxwolf> presete
[15:08:39] <linuxwolf> gah
[15:08:40] <ralphm> here
[15:08:48] <MattJ> Here
[15:09:20] <Kev> Tobias: Ping!
[15:09:22] <ralphm> linuxworf: what about smart bookmarks? I usually just type xep 0045
[15:09:30] <Tobias> pong
[15:09:35] <linuxwolf> I don't want to type the "45" 9-:
[15:09:40] <linuxwolf> I suggest we start with MAM first
[15:09:42] <MattJ> Heh
[15:10:01] <linuxwolf> that's Message Archiving Manager, not Matthew A. Miller (-:
[15:10:13] <Kev> linuxwolf: Really? OK, I don't mind.
[15:10:20] <MattJ> linuxwolf, Oh, so we have PSA and MAM?
[15:10:25] <Kev> 2) MAM
http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/message-archive-management.html
Accept as XEP?
[15:10:31] <linuxwolf> +1
[15:10:35] <MattJ> +1
[15:10:39] <Tobias> +1
[15:10:39] <ralphm> !
[15:10:41] <ralphm> +1
[15:10:45] <Kev> And MattJ will, on pain of DEATH send the XML to Peter today.
[15:10:49] <MattJ> +1
[15:10:49] <Kev> +1.
[15:10:52] <ralphm> +1
[15:10:53] <linuxwolf> +1
[15:10:54] <Tobias> +1
[15:11:07] <Kev> 3) Dialback:
* Where does this live?
* How far does it go?
[15:11:08] <MattJ> The XSF's powers are getting scary
[15:11:09] <stpeter> yow
[15:11:11] <ralphm> whose death, by the way?
[15:11:19] <Kev> ralphm: NaN
[15:11:21] <stpeter> first we had POKE, now we'll have SMITE?
[15:11:25] <Kev> linuxwolf: This was yours, I think?
[15:11:40] <linuxwolf> I suggested it ...
[15:12:17] <linuxwolf> as the work on DNA slowly progresses, we need to have a dialback progressed to a "recommend implement" state, with fixes
[15:12:27] <linuxwolf> now, I'll defer to stpeter (-:
[15:12:30] <stpeter> heh
[15:13:18] <stpeter> ok, I chatted with fippo in Paris at the IETF meeting and we agreed that it would be best to document dialback at the IETF (again) so that we can put all these federation + DNA pieces together in the same place
[15:13:35] <ralphm> that seems sensible
[15:13:45] <MattJ> Hmm, ok
[15:14:30] <Kev> stpeter: So is this the authors saying they want to retract the XEP?
[15:15:04] <stpeter> basically, it appears that for DNA purposes we'll be using dialback as a "transport" for various credentials (dbkeys) and assertions (DANE, /.well-known/, etc.)
[15:15:06] <fippo> kev: not yet i think -- actually i have a version with minor bugfixes and a nice new feature
[15:15:20] <Kev> fippo: Ah, you're here :)
[15:15:58] <Kev> So is all we need to do to wait for fippo and stpeter to agree on a new version an submit it?
[15:16:21] <Kev> And then to move it up to Draft?
[15:16:25] <MattJ> To the XSF or IETF?
[15:16:27] <stpeter> yes, fippo and I need to chat further, but I wanted to socialize the idea of moving this back to the IETF
[15:16:54] <Kev> MattJ: I just understood from fippo that he'd like to get the XEP in order first.
[15:17:07] <Kev> Which seems to make sense to me, we can always then deprecate that once it's RFCd.
[15:17:24] <stpeter> possible, yes
[15:17:28] <ralphm> ok, but that case the venue is the XSF, not the IETF
[15:17:45] <stpeter> truly I'd prefer to just get to work on it at the IETF
[15:18:04] <linuxwolf> I just want *something* to progress
[15:18:12] *fippo doesn't care much where that happens
[15:18:29] <stpeter> linuxwolf: :)
[15:18:34] <Kev> I have, I *think*, no objection to moving this back to the IETF, although I also aren't sure there's a great benefit to it.
[15:18:50] <ralphm> stpeter: have any of the interested parties expressed a preference?
[15:18:56] <Zash> Dialback in SMTP?
[15:19:02] <linuxwolf> the perceived benefit is that all federation basics are by one SDO
[15:19:05] <stpeter> Zash: um, no :)
[15:19:13] <linuxwolf> "basics" being a relative term
[15:19:40] <Kev> So, there's no Council action here anyway, right?
[15:19:42] <Tobias> right...if it catches one it could be made a requirement of xmpp-core-bis
[15:20:08] <stpeter> Kev: no Council action needed at this time, I think
[15:20:11] <Kev> OK.
[15:20:11] <linuxwolf> Tobias: we're thinking this is either stand-alone, or part of the federation/dna draft
[15:20:25] <Kev> 4) Obsoleting XEP-0130
No objections received onlists.
[15:20:29] <Kev> So I'm ok with this.
[15:20:31] <ralphm> +1
[15:20:33] <linuxwolf> +1
[15:20:41] <linuxwolf> well
[15:20:51] <linuxwolf> maybe move it to deprecated
[15:21:00] <stpeter> sure, Deprecated is fine with me
[15:21:02] <Tobias> linuxwolf, right..but if integrated in dna, dna could be made a requirement
[15:21:05] <linuxwolf> dot the i's and cross the t's
[15:21:06] <Kev> linuxwolf: +1
[15:21:22] <Tobias> +1 on obsoleting
[15:21:36] <Kev> Tobias: But not deprecating?
[15:21:47] <MattJ> Same here
[15:21:53] <MattJ> er
[15:21:55] <stpeter> yeah, deprecate is fine -- that just means the Council will need to look at the issue again in 6+ months :)
[15:21:57] <MattJ> Sorry, I was scrolled up
[15:22:01] <linuxwolf> Tobias: DNA would be a requirement, if one supports this not-yet-draft thing
[15:22:09] <ralphm> Why in two steps?
[15:22:17] <Tobias> stpeter, and obsoleting would move it off any future agenda?
[15:22:25] <Kev> ralphm: I think we're supposed to do it in two steps, without checking XEP-0001.
[15:22:27] <linuxwolf> ralphm: according to XEP-0001, it's supposed to be a 2-step process
[15:22:50] <stpeter> right
[15:22:51] <ralphm> can we vote on it being automatically moved to obsolete in 6 months?
[15:22:59] <linuxwolf> sounds good to me
[15:23:00] <linuxwolf> +1
[15:23:02] <Tobias> +1
[15:23:08] <Kev> ralphm: I don't think it's going to be a hardship to vote on this again in 6 months :)
[15:23:11] <linuxwolf> w00t … a use for <councilnote/> (-:
[15:23:17] <stpeter> haha
[15:23:19] <Kev> But sure, let's do that.
[15:23:21] <stpeter> speaking of which
[15:23:22] <ralphm> +1
[15:23:26] <Kev> OK.
[15:23:33] <Kev> stpeter: I've seen no objections, so please integrate :)
[15:23:37] <linuxwolf> <councilnote>Within six months, this XEP will automatically be determined to be Obsolete</councilnote>
[15:23:40] <Kev> 5) Date of next meeting.
[15:24:01] <ralphm> SBTSBC
[15:24:02] <linuxwolf> SBtSBC works for me
[15:24:09] <MattJ> Same wfm
[15:24:16] <Tobias> wfm
[15:24:23] <Kev> It works for me next week (mostly) it won't the week after. So you may need to think whether you want to meet without me in a fortnight :)
[15:24:25] <Kev> 6) AOB?
[15:24:27] <linuxwolf> 05/02 will not work for me
[15:24:31] <linuxwolf> head's up
[15:24:52] <stpeter> I will be on an airplane on May 2
[15:24:55] <linuxwolf> I say we skip 05/02 (-:
[15:25:00] <linuxwolf> and, no AOB from me
[15:25:07] <stpeter> AOB: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2012-April/003459.html
[15:25:07] <linuxwolf> (other AOB?)
[15:25:18] <stpeter> Kev and Matt said it looked fine
[15:25:26] <linuxwolf> this Matt
[15:25:29] <stpeter> if others have feedback, please say so here
[15:25:38] <stpeter> linuxwolf: of course, the other one is Matthew :)
[15:26:15] <ralphm> isn't MUST too strong?
[15:26:27] <MattJ> Missed that email somehow
[15:26:29] <ralphm> it's not like stuff actually breaks, apart from security
[15:26:35] <MattJ> Oh, it's 2h old
[15:26:39] <linuxwolf> (-:
[15:26:39] <stpeter> MattJ: right
[15:26:43] <stpeter> we can discuss next time
[15:26:45] <stpeter> or on the list
[15:26:47] <stpeter> or more widely
[15:26:50] <MattJ> Sure
[15:26:51] <stpeter> no big hurry
[15:27:02] <Kev> Shall we continue this onlist, then?
[15:27:03] <linuxwolf> It seems ok to me, since ZRTP hashes will be different, unless you did something horribly wrong (IIRC)
[15:27:17] <stpeter> ralphm: Phil Zimmermann said must so that seemed good enough for me ;-)
[15:27:21] <ralphm> :-)
[15:27:27] <ralphm> I'm ok with this change
[15:27:29] <Kev> Any other any other business?
[15:27:34] <stpeter> but yeah, listage is fine with me
[15:27:40] <stpeter> no other AOBs here
[15:28:02] <Kev> Right, I think we're done with 4 mins to spare then.
[15:28:04] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:28:07] <linuxwolf> /whew
[15:28:08] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[15:28:12] <Tobias> thanks
[15:28:17] <linuxwolf> grazie
[15:28:21] <MattJ> Merci
[15:28:36] *stpeter applies the councilnote patch
[15:28:51] <Kev> stpeter: Please remember to extract the XML from Matt or let him die trying :)
[15:29:02] <MattJ> :)
[15:29:08] <MattJ> I'm going to work on it right now
[15:29:24] <linuxwolf> I suppose we could launch some root attacks against his computers...
[15:29:27] <stpeter> heehee
[15:29:43] <linuxwolf> joking!
[15:31:13] <stpeter> ralphm: I think s/MUST/needs to be/ is fine in that note -- it is just a note, after all
[15:32:00] <Zash> linuxwolf: http://xep.xmpp.zash.se/muc (re earlier talk)
[15:32:03] <linuxwolf> you should all read < http://www.circleid.com/posts/dns_resolution_browsers_hope_for_the_future/ >, then start discussing
[15:32:33] <linuxwolf> Zash: nice
[15:32:43] *** linuxwolf shows as "dnd" and his status message is "in a meeting!"
[15:33:10] <ralphm> stpeter: nod
[15:33:36] <stpeter> linuxwolf: thanks for the reminder
[15:33:38] *stpeter reads
[15:34:01] <stpeter> I mean, I had dinner with Andrew and a few other folks in Paris, but that was on a slightly different topic
[15:34:17] <linuxwolf> (-:
[15:34:31] <linuxwolf> it was the third most talked about topic for me in Paris
[15:34:48] <linuxwolf> and I really think everyone should care
[15:35:30] <stpeter> yep
[15:36:05] <stpeter> linuxwolf: he and I were talking about ways to get beyond the public suffix list (which is kind of like /etc/hosts for Web 2.0 or somesuch)
[15:38:04] <ralphm> linuxwolf: interesting. Twisted implements its own resolver, partly because system calls are blocking
[15:38:14] <linuxwolf> ralphm: exactly
[15:38:42] <linuxwolf> "everyone" ends up doing their own, which all behave slightly differently, and give some us headaches
[15:38:42] <Zash> and prosody ...
[15:39:15] <ralphm> I also found out recently that Twisted's SRV connector is hasn't changed much in 9 years, but doesn't work as specified in the SRV RFC
[15:39:17] <linuxwolf> but I can tell you that "DNS people" don't see the current state of things as a problem, necessarily
[15:39:27] <stpeter> interesting, http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0086.html is deprecated, too (as is XEP-0093)
[15:40:08] <stpeter> I wonder if it's time to change 86 to Obsolete
[15:40:08] <linuxwolf> the amount of time spent talking past each other is a little astounding
[15:40:22] <ralphm> another trend is that recent versions of Ubuntu ship with dnsmasq by default
[15:40:30] <linuxwolf> can you tell my 15:30 meeting ended five minutes ago (-:
[15:40:39] <stpeter> quick meeting!
[15:40:44] <linuxwolf> daily scrum!
[15:41:08] <ralphm> linuxwolf: i.e. enabled by default
[15:41:13] <Zash> ralphm: I've installed a local resolver on all my boxes
[15:41:41] <ralphm> linuxwolf: with network-manager telling it the nameservers it should forward requests, too
[15:41:42] <ralphm> to
[15:42:11] <linuxwolf> ralphm: that's fine and good, but if my code can't get there in an efficient manner, I might as well only use /etc/hosts
[15:42:29] <linuxwolf> the problem is not the resolver or nameservers, it's the libraries
[15:42:35] <linuxwolf> or the system calls
[15:42:40] <ralphm> I understand this
[15:42:43] <linuxwolf> (and the system calls?)
[15:42:55] <linuxwolf> sorry, this is a rage subject for me now (-:
[15:43:02] <ralphm> but this is an interesting approach as this gives it a better API than system calls: the DNS protocol
[15:43:25] <linuxwolf> dude, doing the DNS protocol properly is **HARD**
[15:43:34] <stpeter> regarding XEP-0130, I think we just assign it an expiration date, see http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#expiration
[15:43:45] <ralphm> better is subjective, of course
[15:44:14] <ralphm> richer is probably a better word
[15:44:15] <linuxwolf> I'd rather not have to think about YAP if I don't have to
[15:44:26] <ralphm> agreed
[15:44:33] <linuxwolf> I'd rather have a function or two I can call, and "magic" happens
[15:44:53] <ralphm> but not blocking
[15:44:57] <linuxwolf> also, lack of an API makes processing DNSSEC very very difficult
[15:45:04] <linuxwolf> well, lack of a library
[15:45:25] <fippo> linuxwolf: unbound
[15:45:28] <linuxwolf> then we might want to tack DANE on top of all that, and properly validate chains
[15:45:43] <linuxwolf> fippo: it lauches a new process, which means I can't use it everywhere I want to
[15:45:49] <linuxwolf> I've told them about it, too
[15:46:06] <linuxwolf> each request forks a new process to make the DNS request
[15:46:36] <linuxwolf> that is almost worse than blocking function calls in a lot of environments
[15:46:39] <fippo> linuxwolf: iirc it can use just a single background thread which runs an event loop
[15:46:51] <Zash> libunbound \o/
[15:46:58] <linuxwolf> fippo: it can, but I've found it difficult to get setup that way
[15:46:58] <fippo> (but doesn't give any means of integrating that loop into your own eventloop)
[15:47:16] <linuxwolf> and it's still spawning a new process
[15:47:32] <linuxwolf> it's eating up far more resources than just handling it async would
[15:47:45] <linuxwolf> less on Linux than Darwin or Mac
[15:47:48] <linuxwolf> er
[15:47:51] <linuxwolf> Darwin or Windows
[15:48:15] <linuxwolf> and using it on Android or iOS is …. troubleshome
[15:48:49] <Kev> Tobias has libunbound working on Android, I believe.
[15:49:06] <linuxwolf> I tried to get it to work for iOS and had issues
[15:49:23] <linuxwolf> at one point, I couldn't get it to compile in NDK, but that was a *long* time ago
[15:51:22] <linuxwolf> and, anyway, spawning a process (or a thread) to make something async is a resource-hogging cop-out
[15:52:16] <linuxwolf> "all" of the platforms (most of us care about) have a way to manage asynchronous I/O is a very efficient manner
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[15:52:48] *linuxwolf takes a breath, and directs this ire back at the folks who it should actually be directed at (-:
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[19:11:46] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:15:28] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[19:15:31] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[19:17:06] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[19:25:59] *** stpeter shows as "xa" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[19:26:17] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[19:49:13] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[19:54:13] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:00:42] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[20:02:07] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:02:11] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[20:06:20] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[20:10:00] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:11:38] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:20:00] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:24:12] *** stpeter has left the room
[20:24:25] *** stpeter has joined the room
[20:24:59] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:26:33] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[20:39:27] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:39:30] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[20:54:50] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:45:57] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[21:55:56] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[22:02:38] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[22:02:41] *** linuxwolf shows as "online"
[22:06:10] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:30:10] *** stpeter has left the room
[22:35:03] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:43:43] *** Tobias has left the room
[22:44:31] *** MattJ shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:54:30] *** MattJ shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:10:38] *** linuxwolf shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[23:10:42] *** linuxwolf has left the room
[23:15:32] *** Kooda shows as "away"
[23:22:26] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[23:37:49] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[23:50:40] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[23:50:45] *** Neustradamus has joined the room