Wednesday, November 21, 2012
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:07:18] <Kev> T-2 hours.
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[15:25:47] <m&m> am I early or late?
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[15:35:47] <Kev> Early.
[15:35:49] <Kev> 32 minutes.
[15:36:01] <m&m> yay
[15:36:17] <m&m> holiday + timezone differences == confusion
[15:36:43] <Kev> Honoured you're taking time out of the holiday to chat to us... :)
[15:37:03] <m&m> well, I suppose we should have a first meeting at some point before 2013 (-:
[15:38:41] <Kev> It does seem desirable.
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[16:07:03] <Kev> I've poked Ralph, but he's got another minute anyway :)
[16:07:16] <Kev> Ah, and at that moment his client auto-idles :)
[16:07:51] <Kev> I did check with him last night that he'd be here, so shall we give him a few minutes?
[16:07:58] <m&m> sure
[16:08:17] <Kev> I'm fairly keen that for electing a chair everyone's here, even if for no other votes of the year :)
[16:08:29] <m&m> exacetally
[16:08:44] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[16:08:54] <Tobias> here
[16:09:02] <Kev> Excellent. Just Ralph, then.
[16:15:34] *Kev drums his fingers on the desk.
[16:15:47] <m&m> hrm
[16:16:08] <MattJ> I'm in no hurry, FWIW :)
[16:16:20] <Tobias> so for this kev had to wake me up ^^
[16:16:28] <Kev> MattJ: m&m's on holiday, it'd be nice to not keep him indefinitely :)
[16:16:37] <m&m> heh
[16:16:41] <MattJ> I didn't say m&m wasn't in a hurry
[16:16:48] <Kev> Obviously the rest of you I don't care about :D
[16:16:54] <m&m> haha
[16:17:56] <Kev> Board had to vote on a Chair yesterday with just 3/5 present.
[16:18:08] <Kev> So we'll beat that with 4/5 even if Ralph doesn't appear :)
[16:18:46] <Kev> I'd suggest if we wait until 15past and then go ahead regardless it'd seem fair - what do others think?
[16:18:48] <m&m> at least it's quorum
[16:18:57] <m&m> that works for me
[16:19:18] <m&m> I'm not in a hurry
[16:19:27] <MattJ> \o/
[16:19:31] <MattJ> I'm +1 to :15
[16:20:23] <MattJ> Ok, for want of something to discuss, and while we're all here...
[16:20:31] <MattJ> *mostly all here
[16:20:37] <Kev> I'm mostly all there.
[16:20:51] <MattJ> http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html
[16:20:51] <Kanchil> MattJ: http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html:
XEP-xxxx: JSON container
[16:20:59] <MattJ> Shush Kanchil
[16:22:01] <m&m> |-:
[16:22:05] <MattJ> Heh
[16:23:09] <Kev> It's quarter past.
[16:23:19] <m&m> let's just do this
[16:23:19] <Kev> I guess we should go ahead, if we want to be sure of finishing on time.
[16:23:24] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[16:23:26] <Kev> I'm here.
[16:23:27] <m&m> presente
[16:23:43] <MattJ> Also
[16:24:18] <Kev> Tobias was here 7 minutes ago. I hope he's still here now :)
[16:24:47] <Kev> I guess we'll find out if he's not when we do (2) :)
[16:24:52] <Kev> 2) Electing chair.
[16:25:08] <Tobias> yup
[16:25:10] <Tobias> presente
[16:25:18] <Kev> I'm happy to do it. Would anyone else like to be considered?
[16:25:45] <MattJ> *tumbleweed*
[16:25:46] <m&m> I'm fine playing backup (-:
[16:26:11] *Zash whispers "Elect Ralph in his absence"
[16:26:12] <Tobias> yeah..let's all vote on backup :P
[16:26:19] <MattJ> Heh
[16:26:24] <m&m> (-:
[16:26:26] <Kev> Heh.
[16:26:35] <Kev> Should I take that as "no-one else standing", then?
[16:26:48] <m&m> yesh
[16:26:49] <Kev> In which case:
Vote for Kev to be chair...
[16:26:56] <MattJ> +1
[16:26:57] <m&m> +1 to Kev
[16:26:59] <Tobias> +1
[16:27:05] <Kev> +1
[16:27:10] <MattJ> Shocking
[16:27:20] <Kev> Marvellous.
[16:27:32] <Kev> Without even resorting to threats of physical violence.
[16:27:43] <Tobias> *ouch*
[16:27:52] <Kev> 3) Message Forwarding.
Last Call?
[16:28:00] <MattJ> +1
[16:28:04] <m&m> +1
[16:28:14] <Kev> That's "Stanza Forwarding', actually, isn't it?
[16:28:17] <MattJ> It is
[16:28:18] <Kev> 297, in any case.
[16:28:19] <m&m> yes
[16:28:28] <Kev> I'm +1 on an LC.
[16:28:29] <Tobias> can you also forward IQs?
[16:28:37] <Kev> Tobias: If you want to.
[16:28:37] <MattJ> Yes
[16:28:55] <Tobias> then +1
[16:28:56] <MattJ> I won't pretend that's useful though
[16:28:59] <m&m> there's limited applicability for IQs
[16:29:21] <Kev> I can only come up with contrived examples, at first glance.
[16:29:21] <m&m> such as end-to-end encryptkon
[16:29:25] <m&m> encryption
[16:29:36] <m&m> which I need to add to the draft
[16:29:41] <Kev> I'm +1 too.
[16:29:46] <Kev> 4) Date of next meeting
[16:29:51] <MattJ> I'm starting to feel obligated to anticipate all the horrible ways people might use XEPs I write and include "Please don't do this" requests
[16:29:56] <Kev> Next Wednesday, 1600UTC?
[16:30:02] <m&m> Kev: +1
[16:30:03] <MattJ> wfm
[16:30:04] <Tobias> wfm
[16:30:25] <m&m> MattJ: the only solution is to not write XEPs (-:
[16:30:34] <Kev> Marvellous. Board have timed their meetings to be weekly, immediately subsequent to Council this year, which is convenient if anyone wants to drop in and heckle.
[16:30:41] <MattJ> Easier said than done
[16:30:50] <Kev> Oh, no, it's quite easy.
[16:30:53] <MattJ> Kev, yes, that's a great idea
[16:30:56] <Kev> You just join the MUC and make irrelevant comments.
[16:31:01] <MattJ> They're still in xsf@?
[16:31:03] <Kev> ...oh, you didn't mean that :D
[16:31:04] <Kev> Yes.
[16:31:11] <m&m> (-:
[16:31:17] <Kev> 5) Any other business
[16:31:36] <Kev> I'll do my now traditional "Anything anyone wants to change about the way Council is chaired/run this year?" question.
[16:32:16] <m&m> *crickets*
[16:32:22] <Zash>
[16:32:32] <MattJ> It's been pretty ok with me, except when meeting times change, or when I think they have, but they haven't really
[16:32:35] <Kev> I've now, I hope, passed the ludicrously busy spell I had the last couple of months. I've not had to go on site for multiple weeks in a row \o/.
[16:32:52] <m&m> heh
[16:33:05] <Kev> OK.
[16:33:09] <Kev> Any other any other business?
[16:33:20] <MattJ> Not here
[16:33:24] <m&m> nay
[16:33:29] <Tobias> nope
[16:33:41] *m&m ignores that jay-son thingie
[16:33:43] <Kev> Marvellous. Despite a delayed start, 4 minutes to spare.
[16:34:01] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[16:34:03] <MattJ> Any informal comments on the jay-son thingie? I fully intend to submit it otherwise :)
[16:34:05] <Kev> Thanks all :)
[16:34:09] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[16:34:31] <Kev> MattJ: I think it's a bit nasty, and likely to cause pain, but it's something there's a (perceived) requirement for, so who am I to judge?
[16:34:51] <MattJ> What pain might it cause? and what (if anything) can be done to prevent it?
[16:34:54] <m&m> MattJ: to be frank, I almost no benefit to it … you still need context
[16:35:16] <MattJ> I can't be the only person who thinks JSON in <body/> is evil
[16:35:45] <m&m> I think that's evil also, but I also don't see a point to a single wrapper for all cases of JSON
[16:36:02] <m&m> guidelines for how one mixes in JSON to XMPP, sure
[16:36:08] <m&m> a single container … no
[16:36:15] <Kev> MattJ: I don't think that specification for including JSON causes pain, particularly. More that mixing content types like that doesn't seem to buy very much, and JSON isn't all that great for things that need interop and extensibility etc., and ...
[16:36:49] <Kev> m&m: This is true, but at least for the way Swift does parsing/serialising, having all json always in the same wrapper element (which is then within a context element) would be convenient.
[16:37:02] <Kev> *Swiften
[16:37:27] <Kev> So I'm not particularly opposed to saying "If your protocol is shipping JSON, shove it inside <this> element, within your own namespaced element.
[16:37:36] <Kev> As example 2 does in MattJ's spec.
[16:37:50] <MattJ> Right
[16:38:03] <Zash> Compare to 297 and xhtml-im
[16:38:07] <MattJ> That's pretty much exactly what it's intended for
[16:38:24] <m&m> frankly, I'd only be ok if it always had to be wrapped by something else
[16:38:30] <Kev> MattJ: So I think maybe example 1 should go.
[16:38:40] *Kev ^5s m&m
[16:38:42] <MattJ> I'm ok with that
[16:38:45] <m&m> in fact, I'm not sure 297 should be present without somehting wrapping it
[16:38:51] <m&m> something even
[16:39:13] <Kev> m&m: 297 does have a use case for this, which is that sometimes you really do just want to forward a message as a real forward.
[16:39:31] <MattJ> But many closed "XMPP as middleware" do already do the JSON-in-body hack, I've seen it in multiple places now, and I wince every time
[16:39:45] <MattJ> The "context" there is the sender and recipient
[16:39:46] <m&m> MattJ: I'm not saying it won't happen
[16:39:54] <MattJ> I agree that's not pretty, but it's reality
[16:42:05] <Kev> MattJ: Where interop isn't required, I don't really much care what people do :)
[16:42:27] <MattJ> I do, or they might as well not be using XMPP :)
[16:42:38] <Kev> You can encode stuff in a message body for all I care as long as it doesn't reach anyone else's system :)
[16:42:40] <MattJ> and I see this as a step up from what they do now
[16:42:51] <MattJ> I've had to interface with such systems :(
[16:43:05] <Kev> As soon as you need to interface with them, interop's required.
[16:43:13] <Kev> And it starts being clearly wrong :)
[16:43:30] <MattJ> So, happy with a "SHOULD" be inside another element?
[16:43:36] <MattJ> I think that sounds good to me
[16:43:41] <m&m> I'm happy with a MUST
[16:43:44] <MattJ> Heh
[16:44:11] <Kev> TBH, I don't see much of an argument to not say MUST, although hills, etc.
[16:44:32] <Kev> In as much as anyone who's going to ignore it is going to ignore the XEP completely.
[16:44:42] <MattJ> Right
[16:44:51] *m&m plants flag, burns bridge that lets me down
[16:44:56] <MattJ> But they can be coaxed in the right direction
[16:44:57] <Kev> They're not going to say "Oh, well, I'm happy to put it in this wrapper element, but my own namespace? That's just a bridge too far, melad"
[16:45:00] <MattJ> That's mostly the intention
[16:45:18] <Kev> They'll either swallow it and do the right thing, or ignore everything the spec says completely :)
[16:45:25] <Kev> So you may as well say MUST do the right thing.
[16:45:39] <MattJ> !xep 297
[16:45:40] <Kanchil> MattJ: XEP-0297(forwarding): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html
Stanza Forwarding - Standards Track/Experimental - Updated: 2012-07-05
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[16:45:56] <Kev> Ah, are we talking about 297 or JSON now?
[16:46:00] <Kev> I was talking about JSON.
[16:46:00] <MattJ> JSON
[16:46:06] <m&m> I thought we were talking about JSON
[16:46:08] <MattJ> I'm just cross-referencing language :)
[16:46:12] <Kev> OK.
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[16:48:36] <Zash> !xep 231
[16:48:36] <Kanchil> Zash: XEP-0231(bob): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html
Bits of Binary - Standards Track/Draft - Updated: 2008-09-03
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