Wednesday, March 20, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:57:12] <m&m> might be a tad "late"
[15:57:20] <m&m> or unfocused right at the start
[16:00:36] <Kev> OK.
[16:00:41] <Kev> I'm *still* reviewing stuff.
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[16:02:30] <Dave Cridland> Kev, Anyone would think you were busy these days, for some reason.
[16:03:00] <Kev> How little they would know.
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[16:03:44] <Kev> Right. 'tis time.
[16:03:46] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
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[16:03:58] <m&m> present physically
[16:04:14] <m&m> er … logically
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[16:04:27] <ralphm> hey
[16:04:40] <ralphm> from pycon
[16:04:44] <Kev> Ah.
[16:04:48] <Kev> Hail, pycon.
[16:05:15] <Kev> MattJ / Tobias?
[16:05:27] <MattJ> Present
[16:05:32] <Kev> Tobias is auto-away, I can tell because Swift has put a Zzz icon over his avatar :D
[16:05:53] <Kev> Right. So let's start.
[16:05:53] <MattJ> Does that mean he's asleep?
[16:05:58] <Kev> Probably.
[16:06:20] <Kev> 2) Let's start with the completely uncontentious one. LC on 220?
[16:06:26] <MattJ> +1
[16:06:39] <m&m> +1
[16:06:40] <Kev> I'm +1
[16:06:44] <ralphm> yea
[16:06:56] <Kev> Magic.
[16:06:58] <m&m> as I work on making db irrelevant (-:
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[16:07:05] <Kev> 3) 308 to Draft?
[16:07:28] <Kev> I have, I believe, addressed all the LC feedback in one way or another.
[16:08:01] <m&m> I think so, too
[16:08:04] <m&m> I'm +1
[16:08:09] <ralphm> +1
[16:08:21] <MattJ> +1
[16:08:30] <Kev> Amazing.
[16:08:46] <MattJ> That wasn't the contentious item, was it? :)
[16:08:50] <Kev> 4) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dtls-fingerprint.html
Accept as Experimental?
[16:08:51] <Kanchil> Kev: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dtls-fingerprint.html:
XEP-xxxx: Use of DTLS-SRTP in Jingle Sessions
[16:09:00] <m&m> no objections
[16:09:15] <Kev> I know nothing about the subject matter, but that presumably just means I have no meanginful objections.
[16:09:23] <Kev> Or spelling.
[16:09:38] <Dave Cridland> I thought we had something like this already.
[16:09:45] <Dave Cridland> Or was that ZRTP?
[16:09:50] <m&m> ZRTP, IIRC
[16:09:54] <Kev> ZRTP.
[16:09:59] <fippo> dave: 0262 -- dtls is significantly different
[16:10:08] <MattJ> I've no objections so far, but that's likely because I only saw the document this morning and haven't read it through yet
[16:10:31] <ralphm> No objection
[16:11:15] <Kev> 5) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/roster-management.html
Accept as Experimental?
[16:11:16] <Kanchil> Kev: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/roster-management.html:
XEP-xxxx: Remote Roster Management
[16:11:31] <Kev> I have assorted issues with this, but I don't think they're fundamental to the design, they just need maturing on the vine.
[16:11:44] <Kev> I think fundamentally "use iq:roster" is right.
[16:11:54] <m&m> I haven't read it yet
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[16:12:10] <MattJ> I'm +1
[16:12:26] <MattJ> It does have questions, but it's implemented in places and working
[16:12:36] <ralphm> No objection
[16:12:49] <Kev> I read something that I thought was broken, but I don't remember what it was. But I'm not objecting anyway.
[16:13:01] <ralphm> heh
[16:13:08] <Kev> It wasn't show-stopping.
[16:13:16] <Kev> m&m: So, a fortnight for you to object :)
[16:13:35] <Kev> 6) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensor-data.html
Accept as Experimental?
[16:13:36] <m&m> I'm not objecting now
[16:13:36] <Kanchil> Kev: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sensor-data.html:
XEP-xxxx: Sensor Data Interchange over XMPP
[16:13:37] <m&m> (-:
[16:13:42] <Kev> m&m: Noted, ta.
[16:13:57] <Kev> This was the last on my list, and I've not got to it yet. Objections, or lack thereof, within a fortnight.
[16:14:18] <m&m> I glanced over this earlier … no objections
[16:14:44] <ralphm> No objection
[16:14:51] <MattJ> I've no objection to accepting
[16:14:57] <MattJ> I think it needs some work though
[16:15:04] <ralphm> indeed
[16:15:17] <Kev> I'd encourage people to post comments to the list :)
[16:15:22] <ralphm> but I like people are working on this stuff
[16:15:27] <Kev> In fact, not only would I, but I do!
[16:15:37] <Kev> 7) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/exi.html
Accept as experimental
[16:15:38] <Kanchil> Kev: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/exi.html:
XEP-xxxx: Using Efficient XML Interchange (EXI) Format in XMPP
[16:15:45] <MattJ> Yay!
[16:15:58] <ralphm> I haven"t looked at the exi stuff yet
[16:16:08] <Kev> I have some issues with this.
[16:16:17] <Kev> I'm trying to work out if they're sufficiently fundamental to object or not.
[16:16:32] <Dave Cridland> I'd note that while I think EXI may be mature enough (and useful enough) to consider now, I don't think this fits as a compression mechanism - ie, within the XEP-0138 model.
[16:16:32] <ralphm> right
[16:16:47] <Kev> I /think/ that at least none of this stuff can happen pre-auth.
[16:16:55] <MattJ> Dave Cridland, because of bootstrapping?
[16:16:59] <MattJ> Kev, why not?
[16:16:59] <Kev> (And pre-TLS)
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[16:17:04] <m&m> dwd: I agree with you
[16:17:08] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, There's some negotiation going on, and all sorts.
[16:17:10] <m&m> also http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3tfmdg/
[16:17:11] <Kanchil> m&m: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3tfmdg/:
Southpark Instructor - if youre going to compress after encryption youre going to
[16:17:30] <ralphm> Dave Cridland:how would you use it, roughly?
[16:17:31] <Zash> m&m: haha
[16:17:39] <Kev> MattJ: Because you're sending assorted stuff to the server
[16:17:49] <Kev> m&m: Negotiation and layering don't need to be equivalent.
[16:18:07] <Dave Cridland> ralphm, What, use EXI? Or use EXI within the context of XMPP?
[16:18:12] <Kev> But you need to have verified the server's identity before you're going to be willing to download schemas.
[16:18:19] <Kev> And similarly it'll need to have authenticated you for the same.
[16:18:35] <MattJ> Good point
[16:18:43] <m&m> right
[16:18:47] <ralphm> Dave Cridland: latter
[16:18:55] <Kev> I do understand the basic principle that compressing data that's indistinguishable from random is a Really Good Idea.
[16:18:58] <Dave Cridland> Kev, I'm not sure that's true. You can exchange which schemas you're willing to support for compression without security risk, I *think*. Not sure though.
[16:19:18] <Dave Cridland> ralphm, I think it's possibly a new binding, as PSA discussed.
[16:19:23] <Kev> Dave Cridland: If I MITM to add somehow malicious schemas, and you download them after auth, that still seems bad.
[16:19:32] <ralphm> right
[16:19:50] <Dave Cridland> Kev, I don't know - the data is still authenticated, it's just it may be compressed in odd ways.
[16:20:23] <m&m> I could be wrong, but the compression could be to the point where a MITM could inject a schema that fundamentally changes the data
[16:20:29] <MattJ> You could start with a common mandatory schema for auth, and negotiate others after TLS+auth
[16:20:49] <Kev> I'm at least not sufficiently knowledgeable on this to be confident that it's not introducing some really nasty issues.
[16:21:05] <MattJ> Nevertheless, I don't object to accepting it
[16:21:12] <MattJ> I think it would be good for people to poke at it
[16:21:23] <MattJ> Enough are interested that I think it'll happen
[16:21:38] <m&m> exactly
[16:21:46] <MattJ> Though "enough" are a vocal minority I think :)
[16:21:54] <Dave Cridland> Right, I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable either. But I do think this is generally wrong; a "pure" EXI binding seems the appropriate construction.
[16:21:55] <Kev> I'll hold off for today, and get my thoughts in order within the fortnight.
[16:22:05] *** yusuke.doi shows as "online"
[16:22:13] <MattJ> nod
[16:22:22] <m&m> dwd: that's my feeling, too
[16:22:30] <Dave Cridland> FWIW, I note yusuke.doi is present and might have some opinion.
[16:22:42] <yusuke.doi> Hi, am I allowed to speak?
[16:22:46] <Kev> yusuke.doi: Of course.
[16:22:47] <ralphm> yes
[16:23:00] <ralphm> Dave Cridland is not on the council, either
[16:23:35] <yusuke.doi> Thanks. I believe this proposal should be discussed more, either in experimental state or pre-XEP.
[16:24:16] <ralphm> having it on the list wouldnbe awspme
[16:24:30] <yusuke.doi> I have no clear opinion to accept or not, but I feel this proposal have slight variation from 'regular' EXI.
[16:24:32] <ralphm> yay lag and tablet
[16:24:47] <m&m> yusuke.doi: ??
[16:25:17] <m&m> that's a little concerning to me … XMPP already abuses XML stacks enough
[16:26:09] <yusuke.doi> m&m: I see :-) If it's okay for the committee, I don't object.
[16:26:10] <MattJ> m&m, for that suggestion I'll deal with you later :)
[16:26:30] <Kev> So, I think we need to take this to list. I'll try and post something soon, and see if I can form a sensible opinion within a fortnight.
[16:26:48] <ralphm> yeah
[16:26:48] <MattJ> Sounds good
[16:26:51] <fippo> m&m: shall i propose a asn.1 binding for xmpp? :-)
[16:26:59] <ralphm> sure
[16:27:04] <m&m> my problem is that I don't understand EXI enough to feel comfortable commenting
[16:27:08] *** yusuke.doi shows as "online"
[16:27:08] <Kev> I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea of EXI for XMPP, at least.
[16:27:10] <yusuke.doi> You need to invent namespace in asn.1 :-)
[16:27:17] <ralphm> and a protocol buffers oene
[16:27:21] <Kev> Right. I think we're done.
[16:27:29] <Kev> 7) Date?
[16:27:29] <m&m> protobuff!
[16:27:34] <Dave Cridland> yusuke.doi, X.693
[16:27:37] <Kev> 8) Date, rather
[16:27:38] <Zash> JSON!!
[16:27:47] <m&m> next week works for me
[16:27:49] <ralphm> sbtsbc
[16:27:53] <yusuke.doi> Dave Cridland: Thanks
[16:27:55] <MattJ> wfm
[16:28:00] <Kev> OK.
[16:28:03] <Kev> 9) AOB?
[16:28:13] <MattJ> nack
[16:28:22] <m&m> the IETF meeting was rather uneventful
[16:28:25] <ralphm> glad about per's message
[16:28:31] <m&m> mostly because it was the very last session of the week
[16:28:37] <m&m> and we were all brain-dead
[16:28:50] <MattJ> I noticed :)
[16:29:16] <Kev> OK, that's it then.
[16:29:18] <Kev> Thanks all.
[16:29:20] <m&m> someone has to be the sacrificial goat; RAI likes to rotate which group that is
[16:29:23] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[16:29:26] <yusuke.doi> Thanks
[16:29:28] <ralphm> people at pycon are really cynical about Google's plans with XMPP
[16:29:35] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[16:29:48] <m&m> I just want to know I think EXI for XMPP is interesting, but I'm not sure this is the right a approach
[16:30:00] <Kev> ralphm: Oh? This because of the somewhat political "Google Bad, Mkay" thing prominent people have done this week?
[16:30:11] <m&m> ralphm: I can't blame them
[16:30:32] <ralphm> yeah, many misinformed opinions
[16:30:38] <fippo> ralphm: as long as google doesn't put jarkko (the irc guy) in charge there is no reason to worry :-)
[16:30:45] <ralphm> hah
[16:31:39] <m&m> no comment (-:
[16:31:56] <ralphm> google reader thing and caldav didn't go over well, and then this came up
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[16:32:32] <Dave Cridland> CalDAV isn't being dropped, though.
[16:32:57] <Zash> Just require you to be whitelisted to access?
[16:33:03] <Dave Cridland> I'm told that it's being moved to an Oauth2 based service, but the transition just happens to be a bit rough.
[16:33:34] <ralphm> well that's entirely different from what they wrote themselves
[16:33:35] <Dave Cridland> Once it's OAuth2, it will have per-application keys, though I don't know the details.
[16:33:37] <yusuke.doi> m&m: I'd like to propose different port approach for EXI with XMPP soon.
[16:33:59] <m&m> yusuke.doi: that sounds like the alternative binding route … which is probably the right approach
[16:34:15] <ralphm> in the announcement they said move to the google calendar api
[16:34:33] <yusuke.doi> m&m: depends on use case (is the fair answer, I believe alternative binding should be better :-)
[16:34:58] <Dave Cridland> ralphm, Yes, they did. I think the road to OAuth2 CalDAV is long and rocky.
[16:35:27] <ralphm> ok, but communicating that would've been nice
[16:35:32] <ralphm> oh well
[16:36:01] <ralphm> gotta walk to sprints now
[16:36:05] <Kev> Enjoy.
[16:36:07] <MattJ> m&m, by the way - a question that came up after IETF: as an implementor, how would I actually use POSH? Am I supposed to fire off HTTPS requests every time I see an invalid cert?
[16:36:10] <MattJ> See you ralphm
[16:36:28] <fippo> mattj: i think so
[16:36:35] <MattJ> m&m, or will we have a way in XMPP to hint that POSH should be used to verify?
[16:36:39] <m&m> MattJ: or everytime you see a new domain
[16:36:39] <Dave Cridland> yusuke.doi, I don't see nearly as many benefits for in-stream negotiated EXI, since you need a traditional XML parser, fallback cases, and so on. Feels all wrong.
[16:37:08] <Zash> MattJ: Just as we would need to fire off a DNS lookup for DANE
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[16:37:24] <MattJ> Do both at the same time, and see which returns faster? ;)
[16:37:30] <m&m> basically, yes
[16:37:32] <yusuke.doi> Dave Cridland: Personally I agree. But Peter should have different answer
[16:37:46] <m&m> Happy Eyeballs for Everyone!
[16:38:04] <MattJ> Doesn't it essentially make everyone with a cert their own CA? :)
[16:38:06] <fippo> mattj: you might even do traditional dial-back in parallel :-)
[16:38:10] <m&m> it's the Oprah paradigm for protocols
[16:38:22] <Zash> MattJ: DANE? Yes. :D
[16:38:46] <m&m> DANE definitely does, POSH could depending on what other HTTP-based things you support
[16:38:48] <fippo> even though i think that the samecert stuff might be faster than POSH (less secure though sincc it works with self-signed certs)
[16:39:02] <m&m> fippo: dialback is not a prooftype
[16:39:11] <MattJ> fippo, samecert?
[16:39:39] <fippo> m&m: not for the ietf at least ;-)
[16:40:00] <m&m> fippo: not for anyone that actually cares about assurances d-:
[16:40:06] <MattJ> Neither for Prosody, as of the next version
[16:40:20] <MattJ> It's also an open question as to whether we allow dialback by default in the config
[16:40:34] <fippo> mattj: open a reverse connection to the host, starttls, compare certificates. slighty better than 0185, less roundtrips
[16:40:44] <MattJ> But either way it's motioning towards being called "insecure"
[16:40:49] <fippo> m&m: well, 99%+ of server admins don't care
[16:40:51] *m&m wanders back to his day job responsibilities
[16:40:59] <MattJ> fippo, ah, right
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[16:41:12] <Zash> !xep 185
[16:41:13] <fippo> m&m: shall i point out that muc.xmpp.ogr was using an invalid cert until like two weeks? :-)
[16:41:14] <Kanchil> Zash: XEP-0185(N/A): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0185.html
Dialback Key Generation and Validation - Informational/Active - Updated: 2007-02-15
[16:41:33] <MattJ> fippo, it wouldn't have been if nobody could connect to it :)
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[16:41:41] <MattJ> Someone needs to jump first
[16:41:47] <m&m> right
[16:41:53] <Zash> Is samecert documented somewhere?
[16:42:01] <fippo> yeah. that big hammer called "jabber.org" ;-)
[16:42:09] <MattJ> fippo, well yes, there is that
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[16:42:28] <fippo> zash: dave had a blogpost describing it...
[16:42:31] <MattJ> I was thinking of shipping XMPP servers, but jabber.org would be a better hammer
[16:42:35] <Tobias> Kev, yeah..the zZz meant i was asleep..sry
[16:42:42] <MattJ> or Google, but... meh
[16:42:58] <Zash> fippo: orly?
[16:43:08] <Zash> Dave Cridland: orly?!
[16:43:33] <Zash> Wasn't that d-w-d, which iirc was about verifying certs as normal
[16:43:48] <Zash> But in a dialback
[16:43:48] <m&m> that's what I thought
[16:43:52] <fippo> i think it descried samecert, too
[16:44:16] <Zash> Dave Cridland: Your blog, when will it return to the land of the online?
[16:44:31] <fippo> m&m: btw, DNA still needs a turbohalibut prooftype, otherwise that cridland guy will block it :-)
[16:44:38] *m&m goes off for more caffeine
[16:44:48] <fippo> http://jabber.soup.io/post/88601075/Dave-Cridland-Dialback-Now-without-dialback -- cached version
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[16:45:28] <fippo> the third paragraph describes samecert
[16:46:47] <Zash> And as I said at the summit, I'd like to see "If the SRV record is Secure, then the target name is acceptable in the certificate" in a standalone document :)
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[16:52:31] <Dave Cridland> Tubrohalibut. Mmmmm.
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[16:53:37] <Dave Cridland> Zash, So, my blog is more or less shot. I might resurrect it at some point. Or I might do something odd with having it semi-present and backed onto G+.
[16:56:06] <Kev> nanoc!
[16:56:25] <Kev> (Nanoc really does seem to be quite competent)
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[16:59:14] <Dave Cridland> It's really that I'm not sure I can be bothered having a traditional blog, rather than G+.
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[17:03:06] <Zash> It wouldn't be the same :(
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[17:03:30] <Zash> But then, I'm in the 'doesn't really want to depend on Google'-crowd.
[17:04:11] <fippo> we should have recorded peters statement on open federation at the summit
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[17:09:58] <Zash> fippo: summary? not sure I recall
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[17:16:41] <fippo> zash: i don't recall exactly either :-( maybe webex was active and is recorded
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[17:23:23] <MattJ> One day I'll finish my blog
[17:23:37] <MattJ> http://blog.matthewwild.co.uk/
[17:23:37] <Kanchil> MattJ: http://blog.matthewwild.co.uk/:
Matthew Wild's Blog
[17:23:59] <Tobias> haha
[17:24:00] <Zash> !
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[17:24:41] <Tobias> that reminds me of http://216.119.142.188/~jbwp/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/2011-05-01-Homer-Web-Page.jpg
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[17:25:01] <Tobias> but sure beats the design of my blog
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