Wednesday, May 29, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:04:39] <stpeter> greetings and salutations
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[15:05:34] <MattJ> Hey :)
[15:05:40] <m&m> hola
[15:06:11] <stpeter> I seem to recall that Kev sent his regrets?
[15:06:23] <MattJ> He said he might be late
[15:06:29] <MattJ> iirc
[15:06:36] <m&m> I think so, too
[15:06:41] <stpeter> ah ok
[15:06:52] <m&m> but I think we can get started, and he can catch up
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[15:07:04] <MattJ> Now ralphm's here, +1
[15:07:14] <ralphm> aloha
[15:07:16] <m&m> 0) Roll call
[15:07:28] <ralphm> here
[15:07:31] <MattJ> Here
[15:07:39] <m&m> I'm here
[15:07:46] <m&m> Tobias?
[15:07:54] <Tobias> yup
[15:07:55] <Tobias> here
[15:08:00] *** m&m shows as "dnd" and his status message is "XSF Council"
[15:08:17] <m&m> 1) XEP-0297: Move to draft?
[15:08:24] *** MattJ shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Meetings"
[15:08:33] <MattJ> +1
[15:08:41] <ralphm> +1
[15:08:46] <Tobias> +1
[15:09:00] <m&m> There's a typo in the intro that I'm sure the XEP Editor will fix
[15:09:12] <m&m> "There are many situations is which" ...
[15:10:16] <m&m> Also, I think I agree with other sentiments that extensions MUST contain <forwarded/>, not merely SHOULD
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[15:11:30] <MattJ> +1 (after consideration)
[15:11:56] <m&m> I'm −1 until the SHOULD is a MUST
[15:12:07] <stpeter> heh
[15:12:37] <m&m> unless a good argument for the SHOULD?
[15:12:51] <m&m> "unless there is a good argument for the SHOULD?"
[15:12:53] <MattJ> I can't think of oneright now
[15:13:00] <ralphm> well
[15:13:03] *m&m needs last message correct
[15:13:03] <MattJ> I can't think of one right now
[15:13:58] <ralphm> I had suggestions about PubSub some time, where people asked why the payload of events were embedded. If they were not, the original message might be interpretable, (like with Atom), even if PubSub wasn't.
[15:14:08] <ralphm> I'm not sure if that's an argument here, though
[15:14:28] <m&m> so far the embeddings of <forwarded/> provide important context
[15:14:42] <ralphm> arguably, the same holds for pubsub
[15:14:53] <m&m> /nod
[15:15:07] <ralphm> but there you could think of some 'see my sibling' semantics
[15:15:27] <ralphm> I am just thinking aloud about this, while we can
[15:15:31] <m&m> heh
[15:15:43] <Lance> as a client dev, i strongly prefer the embedded version over sibling
[15:15:49] <m&m> me too
[15:15:58] <ralphm> in <iq/>s it would not work anyway, as it can only have one child (not counting error)
[15:16:13] <MattJ> Well the XEP "strongly prefers" it already
[15:16:27] <MattJ> Just there might be exceptions
[15:16:46] <MattJ> However none of us can think of one :)
[15:16:48] <ralphm> I'm totally ok with embedding
[15:17:40] <MattJ> and this SHOULD isn't even for implementations as much as future protocol developers
[15:17:46] <m&m> right
[15:18:38] <ralphm> allright then
[15:18:53] <ralphm> so m&m, do we change it to MUST?
[15:19:20] <m&m> yes
[15:19:29] <ralphm> wfm
[15:19:37] <m&m> any more pressing opinions?
[15:20:10] <m&m> ok, moving on
[15:20:38] <m&m> ProtoXEP Chat Markers: Accept as Experimental?
[15:20:39] <m&m> http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/chat-markers.html
[15:20:40] <Kanchil> m&m: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/chat-markers.html:
XEP-xxxx: Chat Markers
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[15:20:49] <Kev> Sorry. I did warn I could be late
[15:20:52] <m&m> (that would be 2)
[15:21:01] <stpeter> hi Kev!
[15:21:06] <m&m> hello Kev
[15:21:17] <Kev> I was stuck in a meeting room without wifi to be able to join!
[15:21:25] <m&m> ugh
[15:22:01] <ralphm> !-1
[15:22:15] <m&m> heh
[15:22:21] <Kev> As embedding in 297, I think it should be embedded.
[15:22:37] <ralphm> But I like the discussion on how it should be activated.
[15:22:42] <m&m> Kev: should be, or must be?
[15:22:53] <ralphm> I'm not terribly fond on having another protocol with 'subscribe' as a verb
[15:23:05] <m&m> I don't object to the idea, but I'm not sure I like this approach
[15:23:16] <m&m> but I don't immediately object to the approach either
[15:23:32] <MattJ> Markers?
[15:23:37] <m&m> correct
[15:23:40] <MattJ> There's a lot I don't understand
[15:23:47] <Kev> I think I'm too on the run at the moment to contribute sensibly, so I'll vote on everything when I get the minutes, if I could, please.
[15:24:02] <MattJ> Do I have to subscribe to all the people I have a conversation with?
[15:24:04] <m&m> of course!
[15:24:04] <Tobias> haven't had time to read chat markers yet...will vote on list
[15:24:04] <ralphm> Kev: no. Focus!
[15:24:05] <m&m> and noted
[15:24:26] <m&m> I think the "subscribe" is global
[15:24:34] <MattJ> Global to...?
[15:24:38] <m&m> the server?
[15:24:41] <Zash> The world!
[15:24:42] <m&m> it's not immediately clear
[15:24:44] <Lance> MattJ: the way i read it, you basically just subscribe to your archive, which tracks last/read received for each jid
[15:24:49] <m&m> which is one of the objections I have
[15:24:52] <ralphm> the 'marker providing service'
[15:24:52] <MattJ> Then what if I communicate with someone on another server?
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[15:25:08] <ralphm> in this spec, it is assumed to be your own server
[15:25:17] <ralphm> or, more specifically, your account
[15:25:30] <MattJ> So chat markers don't work over s2s?
[15:25:45] <MattJ> That's... quite a limitation
[15:26:09] <Lance> MattJ: the protoxep is very handwavy there. it'd need expanding, but it is doable
[15:26:41] <MattJ> Until I see how, I'm not sure I can be +1 to accepting a vague outline
[15:26:50] <m&m> I agree
[15:26:53] <m&m> with MattJ
[15:27:13] <MattJ> I can post to the list
[15:27:18] <m&m> noted
[15:27:29] <ralphm> well, MattJ, you have raised your concern
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[15:27:56] <ralphm> that counts as a -1 just fine. Just send a message to standards@ to that effect and we'll reiterate
[15:28:21] <m&m> right
[15:28:37] <m&m> 3) ProtoXEP Data Forms - Color Field Type: Accept as Experimental?
[15:28:39] <m&m> http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/color-parameter.html
[15:28:40] <Kanchil> m&m: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/color-parameter.html:
XEP-xxxx: Data Forms - Color Field Type
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[15:29:16] <MattJ> How widely is XEP-0122 implemented?
[15:29:16] <m&m> other than the abuse of prefixed XML that is not inline with XEP-0122, I've no objections
[15:29:38] <jabberjocke> we fix that
[15:29:52] <m&m> jabberjocke: thanks
[15:29:59] <ralphm> ok, in that case !-1
[15:30:02] <MattJ> I've no objections either
[15:30:03] <m&m> There are a few implementations out there … I had written a couple at one point (-:
[15:30:07] <Tobias> only RGB support? not HSV :)
[15:30:17] <ralphm> there we go
[15:30:21] <MattJ> :D
[15:30:23] <m&m> nor RGBA (-:
[15:30:30] *** Florob shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[15:30:36] <m&m> but I don't see that as a reason to object
[15:30:51] <jabberjocke> iterating is good :)
[15:30:56] <MattJ> +1
[15:31:12] <m&m> I can see that as blocking Draft, but that's a while off
[15:31:25] <Tobias> but other than that i'm +1
[15:32:15] <m&m> ok, so Peter Waher and/or "jabberjocke" to submit an update removing the prefixes, then we should be good to accept
[15:32:16] <jabberjocke> m&m:blocking draft? whats that?
[15:32:25] <jabberjocke> perfect
[15:32:32] <m&m> see xep-0001
[15:32:38] <jabberjocke> ok
[15:33:04] <ralphm> I have an AOB
[15:33:12] <m&m> 4) date of next meeting
[15:33:18] <m&m> ralphm: noted, and so do I
[15:33:29] <m&m> SBTSBC WFM
[15:33:37] <Tobias> wfm
[15:33:40] <ralphm> +1
[15:34:00] <MattJ> +1
[15:34:15] <m&m> 5) Any other Business?
[15:34:33] <ralphm> yes
[15:34:36] <MattJ> Yes, but we don't know what it is yet
[15:34:48] <ralphm> I remember we talked about coloring XEPs more prominently
[15:34:54] <ralphm> according to their status
[15:34:57] <MattJ> Mmm
[15:35:00] <m&m> hm
[15:35:11] <ralphm> like with a side ribbon
[15:35:15] <MattJ> Yes
[15:35:18] <ralphm> whatever happened with that?
[15:35:24] <m&m> no one did the work? (-:
[15:35:29] <ralphm> People still think we have a gazillion standards
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[15:35:31] <m&m> I think it's a fine idea
[15:35:31] <stpeter> exactly
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[15:35:38] <ralphm> there was a prototype?
[15:35:49] <stpeter> I don't recall a prototype
[15:35:58] <m&m> I don't remember seeing one, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen
[15:36:00] <ralphm> oh, maybe I dreamt of one
[15:36:52] <stpeter> we could start an XMPP Area at the IETF and republish all the Draft/Final specs as RFCs...
[15:36:59] <ralphm> Do we know of anyone we can volunteer to work on this?
[15:37:00] <m&m> well, prototypes and POCs are welcome
[15:37:01] <ralphm> ehm
[15:37:02] <Kev_> Please Lord No.
[15:37:10] <m&m> heh
[15:37:32] <m&m> I would rather hold judgement on that until they support Unicode, at a minimum
[15:37:51] <Tobias> stpeter, wouldn't that be like trolling the IETF
[15:38:18] <jabberjocke> uml diagrams in acsii text is a challenge
[15:38:24] <m&m> I don't think the RFC XML format is any worse or better than the XEP XML format, but I think the lack of Unicode, image handling, and some other pieces is too much of a dealbreaker
[15:38:39] <stpeter> anyway, enough of that :-)
[15:38:54] <m&m> so, my AOB is LC for Carbons
[15:39:14] <Zash> Yay
[15:39:19] <m&m> It's dependent on −297, but I don't think that needs to hold up its LC
[15:39:41] <m&m> it already complies with the coming changes, AFAICT
[15:40:01] <stpeter> yes it would be good to finish that one off
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[15:40:48] <ralphm> +1
[15:41:07] <MattJ> +1
[15:41:11] <m&m> Tobias?
[15:41:19] <Tobias> +1
[15:41:28] <m&m> that leaves Kev, which will be on list
[15:41:52] <m&m> ok, we're seven minutes over, but we started a couple minutes late
[15:41:58] <m&m> unless there's anything else...
[15:42:13] <MattJ> Nothing from me
[15:42:21] <ralphm> thanks!
[15:42:23] *m&m bangs gavel
[15:42:27] <MattJ> Thanks :)
[15:42:31] <m&m> minutes to be sent presently
[15:42:40] <m&m> after I get some coffee!
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[15:43:25] <Tobias> thanks m&m
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[16:04:17] <m&m> just to clarify, is everyone (but me) +1 to advance −297?
[16:04:59] <MattJ> I think so, yes
[16:05:11] <MattJ> I'm not fussed about the MUST
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[16:06:02] <m&m> so it's just me (-:
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