Wednesday, June 19, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:55:21] <m&m> T - 10 minutes
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[15:06:00] <stpeter> sigh, I broke my Prosody installation at stpeter.im last night, I suppose I'll use jabber.org :-)
[15:06:09] <m&m> oy
[15:06:28] <m&m> how did you break it? I find that difficult to do (-:
[15:06:29] <stpeter> yeah
[15:06:40] <stpeter> m&m dependency madness in debian
[15:07:10] <m&m> hmm
[15:07:29] <stpeter> trying to upgrade to Prosody 0.9rc3
[15:08:01] <m&m> ok, we're two minutes late
[15:08:42] <m&m> I just pinged MattJ and Ralph
[15:08:46] *** MattJ has joined the room
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[15:09:11] <m&m> hrmph
[15:09:13] *MattJ wonders why he sees m&m as offline
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[15:09:30] <m&m> I have no idea
[15:09:34] <m&m> anyway
[15:09:41] *m&m bangs gavel to start
[15:09:45] <m&m> 1) Roll call
[15:10:04] <MattJ> Here
[15:10:14] <m&m> presente
[15:10:18] <m&m> Tobias?
[15:10:29] <Tobias> there
[15:10:57] <m&m> well, that's a quorum
[15:11:24] <m&m> 2) Proposed XEP: SOX < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sox.html >
  Accept as Experimental?
[15:11:57] *fippo would love to see this accepted
[15:12:12] <m&m> I think it's fine as a starting point
[15:12:15] <m&m> no objections from me
[15:12:35] <stpeter> it's worth debating, anyway -- although discussion on the rtcweb@ietf.org indicates that even the use of SDP is in flux at in the WebRTC world
[15:12:55] <fippo> a starting point for a discussion about jingle and sox, but we can/should discuss that under AOB
[15:13:01] <Tobias> i have no objections either
[15:13:54] <m&m> MattJ?
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[15:14:35] <MattJ> Grr, sorry, power cut
[15:14:40] <MattJ> I'm +1
[15:15:00] <m&m> Kev and Ralph have a fortnight to raise objections
[15:15:14] <m&m> 3) Proposed XEP: Chat Markers < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/chat-markers.html >
  Accept (revision) as Experimental?

[15:15:41] <MattJ> +1
[15:15:47] <Tobias> +1
[15:15:59] <m&m> no objections from me
[15:16:10] <m&m> Kev and Ralph again have a fortnight to object
[15:16:21] <m&m> 4) Date of Next Meeting
[15:16:27] <Peter Waher> question?
[15:16:34] <m&m> sure
[15:16:47] <m&m> can it wait for AOB?
[15:16:47] <Peter Waher> I have made revisions to 2 proto-XEPs
[15:17:03] <Peter Waher> and would like you to consider advancing them to Experimental
[15:17:10] <m&m> Peter Waher: we can discuss in AOB
[15:17:12] <Peter Waher> the color field type, and HTTP over XMPP
[15:17:14] <m&m> right after this
[15:17:29] <Peter Waher> what is AOB?
[15:17:30] <m&m> just confirming some/most plan to make it
[15:17:34] <m&m> Any Other Business
[15:17:41] <Peter Waher> ok
[15:17:47] <m&m> I'll take silence as acceptance
[15:17:58] <m&m> 5) Any other Business
[15:18:16] <fippo> sox has raised some questions on how we proceed with jingle...
[15:18:17] <m&m> Peter Waher: did you submit your revisions to the XEP editor?
[15:18:18] <Tobias> m&m, so same time next week?
[15:18:25] <m&m> Tobias: yes
[15:18:26] <Peter Waher> yes
[15:18:32] <Peter Waher> and to the standards list
[15:18:54] *** MattJ shows as "away"
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[15:19:11] <m&m> Tobias: treat the "Date of Next Meeting" as a "un-rsvp" (-:
[15:19:16] <stpeter> I'm wondering if we need a new XEP editor
[15:19:31] *m&m cracks whip @ XEP editor
[15:19:51] <Tobias> stpeter, or split the work up
[15:19:56] <m&m> I didn't add HTTP/XMPP to the agenda as I hadn't seen an update to the officail inbox
[15:20:00] <m&m> official
[15:20:05] <stpeter> m&m yes that my bad
[15:20:09] <Lance> Tobias: or make an editorbot
[15:20:16] <MattJ> :D
[15:20:19] <m&m> heh
[15:20:40] <fippo> stpeter: your skill is wasted as editor. you need to get a secretary
[15:20:48] *** ralphm has joined the room
[15:20:54] <stpeter> heh
[15:21:03] <ralphm> hi
[15:21:05] <m&m> well, this seems a fitting discussion for council
[15:21:15] <ralphm> sorry for being late
[15:21:40] <MattJ> My internet is going on/off :/
[15:21:41] <m&m> so, stpeter, how would you want the XEP editor role filled?
[15:21:49] <m&m> MattJ: ugh
[15:22:46] <ralphm> no objections to the protocol-xeps
[15:22:56] <stpeter> m&m: probably it makes sense to write a job description and ask for volunteers
[15:22:59] <m&m> ralphm: noted
[15:23:32] <m&m> stpeter: ok, since you're kind of overloaded now, maybe we can work that out between us (-:
[15:23:45] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[15:23:56] <ralphm> hi Dave
[15:24:50] <fippo> i think it's about offloading some of the work... stpeter isn't the only one who can judge things like typo-patches
[15:25:04] <stpeter> we do have http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-README.html
[15:25:23] <m&m> Peter Waher: as to your request…once we get those updated XEPs into the inbox, I'm sure we can get them moved forward
[15:25:28] <stpeter> so that's a kind of job desciption to some extent
[15:25:30] <ralphm> There was talk about pull requests earlier. stpeter: would that make things better?
[15:25:44] <m&m> stpeter: that works for me
[15:26:02] <Peter Waher> thanks
[15:26:06] <Dave Cridland> stpeter, Any idea which parts of your XEP Editor role are causing the most effort, and which you'd be most uncomfortable delegating?
[15:26:45] <stpeter> Dave Cridland: right, I shall give some thought to that and report back to the Council/Board
[15:27:11] <ralphm> awesome
[15:27:17] <Tobias> great
[15:27:18] <m&m> sounds like a plan
[15:27:25] <ralphm> I noted that fippo brought up a point about Jingle
[15:27:29] <m&m> I'll note that for next week's agenda, for the real chair (-:
[15:27:32] <stpeter> also, it might help to give more people git access (or it might not)
[15:27:39] <m&m> fippo: your turn!
[15:28:16] <ralphm> stpeter: (or you just merge in commits, pull requests)
[15:28:32] <fippo> ok... we've all heard how google (or at least a spokesperson) thinks that audio and video is not well integrated into xmpp.
[15:29:08] <fippo> and sox is, to some extend, running in parallel with jingle
[15:29:14] <stpeter> ralphm: yes, I already do that, my problem is that I have too much to do, people at Cisco expect me to work on internal projects these days, I have 20 Internet-Drafts to get finished, and I'm even writing some Python code these days related to internationalization ;-)
[15:29:41] <fippo> and with all the webrtc stuff happening we ought to make sure that webrtc and jingle work together really great
[15:29:56] <Dave Cridland> This seems like a sensible direction, yes.
[15:30:10] <m&m> fippo: ok, so what do you want the council to do?
[15:30:34] <stpeter> fippo: I totally agree -- although webrtc is rather a moving target right now :-)
[15:30:51] <fippo> m&m: until yesterday it was a question of "webrtc uses sdp. jingle doesn't. do we continue to do our own effort"
[15:31:19] <fippo> but then people over at rtcweb wanted to reopen that discussion
[15:31:21] <Dave Cridland> Right, but there's now an endless thread on whether or not WebRTC should use SDP, or at least expose it at all.
[15:31:56] <stpeter> yes, it's quite interesting reading
[15:32:08] <ralphm> indeed
[15:32:13] <fippo> especially that one guy working on a large system built around jingle ;-)
[15:32:18] <Dave Cridland> Right. :-)
[15:32:19] <ralphm> and it really affects what we would like to push for
[15:32:42] <ralphm> apparently that large system doesn't (want to) use SDP at all
[15:32:42] <stpeter> ralphm: yes!
[15:32:53] <fippo> there are some current problems in jingle and sox even addresses some of them
[15:32:54] <ralphm> we have been discussing translating to/from SDP to 'pure' jingle
[15:33:13] <fippo> and of course there is the translation issue
[15:33:52] <ralphm> it seems some people want to ditch SDP and/or offer/answer from the API, leaving it up to signalling protocols entirely
[15:33:52] <fippo> (and i've had a really great day. worked around a crasher bug in chrome and had to reintroduce proprietary elements to the mapping)
[15:34:35] <stpeter> fippo: ouch
[15:34:53] <ralphm> I can see how having browsers generating SDP can be bad for forward compatibility
[15:35:07] <Tobias> m&m, is this still official meeting part over?
[15:35:16] <ralphm> Tobias: not sure
[15:35:28] <m&m> I hadn't banged the gavel yet
[15:35:30] <ralphm> I wonder if we should steer this process from our point of view
[15:35:42] <fippo> ralphm: and that is what i want the council to do ;-)
[15:35:50] <ralphm> 'our' being the XMPP community in general and the council in particular
[15:35:59] <stpeter> yes, the Council is there to provide technical leadership, eh? ;-)
[15:36:05] *MattJ nods
[15:36:07] <ralphm> stpeter: yeah
[15:36:21] <ralphm> (I have been discussing stuff with fippo earlier today)
[15:36:23] <m&m> who on the council wants to drive this?
[15:36:40] <Dave Cridland> Assign it to Kev. :-)
[15:36:42] <m&m> ralphm is tentatively volunteered? (-:
[15:36:45] <Tobias> heh
[15:36:45] <stpeter> heh
[15:36:55] <ralphm> I am interested in the space, but haven't been involved in Jingle at all
[15:37:04] <m&m> Dave Cridland: I had considered it (-:
[15:37:19] <MattJ> I know nothing about SDP, WebRTC, or any of stuff... and I fear I don't have the time to spend figuring it out
[15:37:29] <MattJ> I think this applies to many in the XMPP community (and council...)
[15:37:33] <ralphm> so I'd really need backing from people in our community that actually build stuff or at least know how to balance the issues involved
[15:37:46] <Dave Cridland> I can make a suggestion - the Council's well within its rights to delegate this to a small design/leadership team.
[15:37:51] <fippo> right... the problem of the xmpp community has always been that people didn't want to touch this media stuff
[15:37:55] <m&m> I was about to suggest that, Dave
[15:37:58] <ralphm> but I do feel this is a rare change to make a difference
[15:37:59] <MattJ> Dave Cridland, i.e. fippo? :)
[15:38:02] <m&m> starting with you and fippo!
[15:38:10] <fippo> and hopefully emil ivov!
[15:38:13] <Dave Cridland> I'm no more qualified than anyone else here.
[15:38:26] <Tobias> right...were nearly getting to the point where jingle ft works and is deployed :)
[15:38:27] <m&m> Dave Cridland: every group needs a chair
[15:38:35] <ralphm> I also note that we have Cisco people in our ranks
[15:38:47] <ralphm> that we should draft
[15:38:59] <Dave Cridland> Actually that's not a bad idea, I can chair it if you like. I'm effectively neutral on the issues.
[15:39:26] <fippo> the council even has a carbons expert and i think we'll need carbons (-:
[15:39:40] <m&m> I don't remember how official something like this needs to be
[15:39:40] <stpeter> true on carbons
[15:39:48] <m&m> fippo: sure
[15:39:49] <stpeter> maybe this is a good topic for discussion at the meetup in Berlin?
[15:39:52] <ralphm> I'd join in, too
[15:40:01] <stpeter> the webrtc situation should be clearer by then
[15:40:04] <ralphm> it has been a while since we created a SIG
[15:40:05] <stpeter> not that we need to wait
[15:40:07] <m&m> I've not been involved in the A/V club, though
[15:40:09] <stpeter> heh
[15:40:13] <fippo> stpeter: no bet on the situation
[15:40:21] <stpeter> and Emil will be in Berlin, too
[15:40:23] <stpeter> and other folks
[15:40:25] <fippo> m&m: this is about signalling
[15:40:47] <Dave Cridland> stpeter, In as much as I've followed the WebRTC stuff, I think the earliest it'll resolve is after Berlin. Probably not until after the next IETF.
[15:40:49] <m&m> fippo: it's been awhile since I've been involved in signalling (-:
[15:41:07] <stpeter> Tobias: about Jingle FT, yeah I agree
[15:41:09] <m&m> I can try to find some time to help, but I'm almost to a point of saturation as it is
[15:41:12] <fippo> you don't necessarily need experience with the media stuff, shuffling around some payload and deliver it in the right order is the bigger issue
[15:41:17] <ralphm> I do believe it is good to start forming opinions before Berlin, though
[15:41:20] <stpeter> there are other things Jingle can do beyond a/v
[15:41:24] <stpeter> ralphm: agreed
[15:41:28] <m&m> stpeter: true
[15:41:51] <stpeter> another approach, which we discussed a bit in Brussels, is to have Jingle-SDP
[15:41:52] <m&m> ok, give me a moment to try and focus here
[15:41:53] <ralphm> actually, one of the first things people want after audio/video is side channels
[15:41:55] <ralphm> like 'chat'
[15:42:06] <stpeter> ralphm: yes, very much so
[15:42:10] <stpeter> and the RTT stuff
[15:42:18] <fippo> ralphm: and that is the point where a full protocol stack kicks any of the webrtc samples
[15:42:29] <ralphm> indeed
[15:42:34] <m&m> so, we have a SIG
[15:42:43] <m&m> Dave Cridland to chair
[15:42:49] <fippo> other than the cube slam stuff probably
[15:42:56] <m&m> and we have a number of interested parties
[15:43:07] <fippo> can we reuse the jingle@ list?
[15:43:14] <ralphm> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0002.html
[15:43:17] <m&m> I was about to ask
[15:43:20] <ralphm> sure
[15:43:39] <m&m> ralphm: proto-SIG (-:
[15:43:53] <m&m> exploratory committee?
[15:43:54] <m&m> anyway
[15:43:57] <stpeter> ah, XEP-0002 :-)
[15:44:03] <stpeter> the early days
[15:44:07] <MattJ> :)
[15:44:25] <ralphm> well, that's where we derive this particular super power from
[15:44:26] <Tobias> the...more bureaucratic days....
[15:44:33] <Lance> i have to run, but I volunteer for the SIG as well
[15:44:37] <ralphm> cool
[15:44:37] <m&m> focus people! I want to end this!
[15:44:42] <stpeter> such enthusiasm, such hope, such naïveté
[15:44:45] <stpeter> heh
[15:44:51] <ralphm> stpeter: thanks
[15:44:53] <stpeter> ok, shall we take this to the jingle@ list?
[15:44:58] <Tobias> yeah
[15:45:01] <Dave Cridland> Sounds good.
[15:45:02] <m&m> let's just call it a committee, and use jingle@ to move forward
[15:45:02] <ralphm> Yeah
[15:45:12] <Tobias> m&m, +1
[15:45:14] <stpeter> m&m: +1
[15:45:17] <MattJ> +1
[15:45:23] <m&m> the official SIG-forming XEP can come sometime later
[15:45:28] <stpeter> yep
[15:45:29] <stpeter> agreed
[15:45:50] <ralphm> cool
[15:45:51] <Dave Cridland> I don't think you need to make a XEP to make a SIG. We're not the IETF, you know.
[15:46:12] <m&m> Dave Cridland: "Anyone (not limited to members of the XMPP Standards Foundation) may propose the formation of a SIG by completing a XMPP Extension Protocol outlining the need for the SIG and its proposed focus."
[15:46:17] <ralphm> Right
[15:46:27] <m&m> so, in some aspects, we are
[15:46:31] <ralphm> I propose we form a SIG for WebRTC/Jingle
[15:46:33] <fippo> m&m: shall I write one?
[15:46:35] <ralphm> there
[15:46:43] <ralphm> Guess we voted above
[15:46:46] <m&m> right
[15:46:48] <ralphm> Yay, SIG in place
[15:46:49] <stpeter> heh
[15:46:58] <m&m> fippo: "the official SIG-forming XEP can come sometime later" (-:
[15:47:23] <Dave Cridland> m&m, That says that people may propose a SIG by a XEP, not that a XEP is required.
[15:47:23] <fippo> i even had http://hancke.name/jabber/jingle-hill prepared...
[15:47:30] <m&m> Dave Cridland: eh, true
[15:47:33] <Tobias> any other things?
[15:47:39] <fippo> but that assumed i would have to defend the jingle hill against the sox guys :-)
[15:47:49] <m&m> ok, so we have a SIG, and we've all voted ok (I suppose Kev gets a fortnight to object)
[15:47:53] <ralphm> fippo: I guess you get to do that on the list
[15:47:54] <Dave Cridland> m&m, Peter was sloppier in his standardese back then, we can take full advantage. :-)
[15:47:57] <m&m> oh, yes … +1 to the SIG
[15:48:09] <stpeter> heehee
[15:48:12] <ralphm> +1, obviously
[15:48:21] <stpeter> Dave Cridland: that was before I drank the IETF kool-aid
[15:48:27] <m&m> hah
[15:48:38] <Dave Cridland> stpeter, Remember, you're part of the IETF establishment, now.
[15:48:43] <m&m> just for the minutes ...
[15:48:50] <stpeter> Dave Cridland: yeah, I'm part of the problem for sure!
[15:49:25] <ralphm> Guess that's it
[15:49:32] <ralphm> yay
[15:49:46] <stpeter> sheesh, Kev is gone for a week and we have a palace revolt!
[15:49:48] <m&m> SIG leaders are Dave Cridland (chair), Philipp Hancke, Lance Stout, and Ralph Meijer?
[15:49:56] <ralphm> I'm sure Kev will be delighted what happened in his absence
[15:50:01] <ralphm> m&m: yeah
[15:50:02] <stpeter> :)
[15:50:04] <m&m> ok
[15:50:04] <Tobias> haha
[15:50:07] <m&m> then I think we're done
[15:50:13] *m&m bang gavel … 15 minutes late
[15:50:16] <Tobias> cya & thanks m&m
[15:50:19] <m&m> thanks to all
[15:50:21] <ralphm> Thanks!
[15:50:25] <m&m> now to work on my other chair (-:
[15:50:55] <m&m> minutes will be out presently
[15:51:05] <ralphm> Talking about chairs, guess who gets to write an e-mail now
[15:51:07] <stpeter> m&m: thanks for chairing!
[15:51:17] <MattJ> +1, thanks :)
[15:51:17] *** m&m shows as "online"
[15:51:35] *ralphm cheers for Dave
[15:51:54] <stpeter> :)
[15:51:58] <Dave Cridland> ralphm, I think I should probably wait until Kev states his opinion.
[15:51:59] <m&m> if I run for the next council, maybe I'll ask to chair that session
[15:52:04] <m&m> (-:
[15:52:30] <ralphm> Dave Cridland: that'd be civil, indeed
[15:52:43] <stpeter> now what I want to know is, what does this have to do with that atramentous software Dave works on these days?
[15:52:57] <Dave Cridland> "atramentous"?
[15:53:00] <ralphm> pretty much nothing
[15:53:02] <stpeter> heehee
[15:53:07] <stpeter> love that word
[15:53:20] <stpeter> it means "inky black"
[15:53:23] *ralphm is in e-mail these days, too
[15:53:37] <Dave Cridland> That's excellent.
[15:53:50] <Dave Cridland> I normally refer to it as Cthulu-Mail, but that's possibly better.
[15:54:40] <ralphm> I'm not sure if I want my e-mail client to be light-sucking
[15:56:21] <stpeter> I'd prefer that a lot of my email disappear on the other side of the event horizon ;-)
[15:57:20] <fippo> stpeter: inky will sort your emails by relevane!
[15:57:24] <fippo> relevance
[15:57:44] <stpeter> Inky does it all, eh?
[15:57:48] <stpeter> might need to give it a try :-)
[15:57:59] <Dave Cridland> stpeter, I'm hurt that you haven't already.
[15:58:34] <stpeter> Dave Cridland: I seem to be stuck in an email rut with Thunderbird :-)
[16:01:07] <MattJ> It's not open-source, is it? :/
[16:01:37] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Nope. It's Cthulu-mail, it'll eat your soul.
[16:01:40] <MattJ> I'm afraid it's going to take quite something to get me move to another hosted provider
[16:02:03] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, It doesn't host your mail; it's just an IMAP client.
[16:02:54] <MattJ> Hmm, ok
[16:03:04] <MattJ> But IMAP from The Cloud?
[16:03:14] <MattJ> or IMAP from my local machine?
[16:04:05] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, IMAP from your machine. Arcode/Inky never gets to see your mail, all the magic processing happens on your laptop.
[16:04:38] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Architecturally, it's all very '90's.
[16:04:38] <MattJ> Then what is the "Cloud-Enabled" part about? :)
[16:04:44] <Tobias> Dave Cridland, any e2ee (PGP/S/MINE) support coming? :)
[16:04:46] <Tobias> *MIME
[16:04:48] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Configuration and things.
[16:04:56] <MattJ> Ok
[16:04:56] <m&m> "and things"
[16:04:57] *stpeter flags http://hancke.name/jabber/jingle-hill for reading after his next conference call
[16:05:03] <Dave Cridland> Tobias, We'd like to.
[16:05:08] <Tobias> Dave Cridland, so ACAP didn't succeed? :)
[16:05:37] *m&m hands Dave a compress for that burn
[16:05:54] <Dave Cridland> m&m, Yeah, we actually keep your credentials in the cloud, encrypted using a key derived from SRP on your Inky password, so we don't even have the ability to read that one.
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[16:06:16] <Dave Cridland> And as for ACAP, I've not yet converted Inky. But soon, soon... Muahahahaha!
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[16:13:06] <fippo> stpeter: i suppose cullen (is he called dr fluffy now?) will really appreciate the request to produce a definition of a webrtc sdp :-)
[16:13:39] <stpeter> fluffy has always been his nick, AFAIK
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[16:33:56] <fippo> stpeter: right, but his bangok slides have a "dr" in front of his realname which he either recently acquired or omitted from other slides.
[16:34:15] <stpeter> yes he has a PhD
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[16:51:19] <Dave Cridland> stpeter, We're considering calling our next release "Atramentous Cephelopod", now.
[16:51:30] <stpeter> most excellent!
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[17:20:07] <fippo> stpeter: you could have told us that stox basically also has an jingle<->sdp mapping issue ;-)
[17:20:48] <stpeter> fippo: yeah, I think that item might get dropped from the charter
[17:21:48] <fippo> well, to me it does make little difference whether it's done at the ietf or the xsf
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[17:34:44] <stpeter> fippo: well, as I said on the STOX list just now, there's a lot of flux here and it will be interesting to see how it all ends up -- but our little SIG at the XSF might be part of the story :-)
[17:35:18] <fippo> right
[17:35:22] <stpeter> I'd like to hear what developers really care about -- e.g., is SDP really going away for end-to-end communication?
[17:35:41] <fippo> i'm not sure what the guys over at rtcweb have for use-cases
[17:36:05] <fippo> but for anything 1-1 telephony, file transfer o/a is the way to go imo
[17:36:31] <fippo> groupchat/conference is harder, but plan b or no plan (my favorite now) provide everything necessary
[17:36:59] <fippo> i doubt that anyone can come up with something that is less painful than sdp
[17:37:25] <stpeter> yeah, agreed!
[17:40:43] <fippo> and heck
[17:40:57] <fippo> it only took me three days to do trickle ice with pranswer
[17:43:17] <MattJ> I think it took me less time to implement dialback
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[17:52:24] <fippo> dialback is sane compared to trickle + pranswer ;-)
[17:52:52] <fippo> stpeter: is STOX meeting in berlin?
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[18:07:26] <ralphm> fippo: IETF 87 is in Berlin, yes
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