XMPP Council - 2013-06-26


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  11. Kev I'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon.
  12. Kev Is there a meeting as usual?
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  15. MattJ I need to not use a fixed resource
  16. MattJ Seems I was a ghost here, but poezio just let me know I was receiving unexpected messages
  17. Kev :)
  18. Kev Doesn't really answer my question, though.
  19. MattJ I've no idea what your question was :)
  20. MattJ I see no room history
  21. MattJ for some reason
  22. Kev I'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon. Kev @ 13:44 Is there a meeting as usual? 13:44
  23. MattJ I think poezio has hidden it
  24. Kev I'm not sure that answered the question either :p
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  28. Kev Well, I assume there is and I'll try and be here, although timing is going to be even tighter than usual.
  29. Kev I may need to consider asking to move Council a little in the future.
  30. m&m yes, there is a meeting today
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  34. stpeter brb
  35. stpeter back
  36. Dave Cridland has joined
  37. m&m it looks like we're missing a Kev
  38. m&m well, lacking the attention of a Kev (-:
  39. stpeter hehe
  40. Dave Cridland You can get one on Amazon, I think.
  41. Tobias but don't get one of the used ones
  42. m&m of course not!
  43. m&m it also looks like we're lacking the attention of a MattJ
  44. Dave Cridland Yeah, you want a new one, not the dodgy ones on Marketplace.
  45. MattJ I'm here now
  46. m&m and we're missing a Ralphm
  47. Kev I'm here.
  48. Kev I dropped MattJ a mail saying I was going to be 5mins late.
  49. stpeter is Ralph on holiday?
  50. Kev he was the only person I had the address of in my phone.
  51. m&m I don't recall
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  54. Kev We don't actually have anything to discuss today though, do we?
  55. Peter Waher http over XMPP
  56. Kev Other than a shedload of outstanding stuff from last week, probably, that I've not even got to opening the mail of.
  57. Peter Waher color field type
  58. m&m haha
  59. Dave Cridland Kev, Basically we can fill you in on what happened last week.
  60. Dave Cridland Kev, We volunteered you for lots of stuff when you weren't looking. ;-)
  61. m&m TL;DR — you are now responsible for deciding our future with Jingle
  62. m&m and the rest of the Free World™®
  63. stpeter heehee
  64. Kev Excellent.
  65. Kev I feel suitably qualified for this responsibility.
  66. m&m we thought you would
  67. m&m (-:
  68. Kev I have, after all, used Fippo's web demo thing.
  69. m&m also, you're now XEP Editor, reporting to stpeter
  70. stpeter laughs
  71. Kev Excellent, I see no problems with that either.
  72. Kev Anything else?
  73. Dave Cridland Kev, My kitchen
  74. stpeter oh, and I'm now Executive Director Emeritus, you're in charge!
  75. Dave Cridland ... needs mopping.
  76. m&m ok ok ok
  77. m&m in all seriousness
  78. fippo has joined
  79. Kev http://dibbledabblesdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/i-want-the-moon-on-a-stick.png
  80. m&m 1) we formed a SIG to determine how media ought to be signaled in the future
  81. m&m 2) Peter isn't able to keep up, and was to report to us (council? board?) on what he thinks we can do about it
  82. Dave Cridland m&m, Well, you guys agreed to form a SIG; I'm awaiting Kev's input there before claiming we've actually formed it.
  83. Kev I assume this is in the minutes and I just need to find sufficient time to read some of my mail from the last week and vote on stuff.
  84. m&m Kev: yes, but since we having a low latency connection to you now ...
  85. stpeter right
  86. Kev True enough.
  87. m&m Dave Cridland: fair point
  88. Kev OK, let's find that mail as I have 30mins assigned to Council now anyway.
  89. Kev Oh, that's surprising. Still on my first page.
  90. m&m heh
  91. Kev 5.3) SIG sounds like a good idea.
  92. Kev I have a significant interest in this, albeit little useful knowledge.
  93. Dave Cridland Kev, Happy with me as chair? Not that I have a *clue* what a SIG chair ought to be doing, so I'll make that one up on the fly if there's nothing in bylaws or XEPs about it.
  94. Kev 5.2) I suspect having a nominated XEP Editor, but a team of minions who just get on and do stuff would be sensible, and have editor@ be an alias to go to several (Possibly including Council Chair).
  95. MattJ Dave Cridland, I don't think anyone else is really clear, so you get to decide what to do
  96. Kev Dave Cridland: Getting a Rough Consensus™ opinion and reporting it to Council. That's about as far as it goes, I think.
  97. m&m essentially hearding cats
  98. m&m herding
  99. Kev And yes, You're welcome to herd as many cats as you wish.
  100. Dave Cridland Kev, And on (5.2), my concern would be ensuring that Peter is happy both delegating tasks and similarly herding the resultant cats.
  101. Kev Peter gets to say what he wants, I just have an opinion on what would be sensible.
  102. stpeter I've been causing delays, so it might be reasonable to have a triumvirate of folks who can do things like push new proposals to the inbox
  103. m&m stpeter: that sounds reasonable, and I'm happy with whatever collection of individuals you decide on
  104. Kev 5.1 - I thought we had approved Color Forms. HTTP I'll need to review again, I haven't read the new version yet.
  105. Kev But if they're not on the agenda for today, I guess that's next week anyway.
  106. Dave Cridland I'd suggest that the micro-editor folks should not be council, and ideally should be relatively new blood in order to pull some new faces into this end of the XSF.
  107. Kev stpeter: Any reason for a triumvirate, other than it being a fun word?
  108. stpeter no :-)
  109. Dave Cridland Kev, It may be his Word Of The Day. Last week it was "Atramentous".
  110. Kev Well, I have no idea what the meaning of that is to know if he's misusing it :)
  111. Kev Ah. My dictionary claims it doesn't exist. I feel vindicated.
  112. stpeter ok, any action items here? Kev, did you have opinions on SoX?
  113. stpeter Kev: the solution to that is, get a better dictionary
  114. Kev stpeter: I'd have thought SoX it would be sensible to hold off while the Special Group Of Daves form opinions.
  115. stpeter Kev: so I take it you're -1 on publishing as a XEP, then :-)
  116. Kev I'd rather not, but can be talked around if people feel I'm being unreasonable
  117. stpeter shrugs
  118. stpeter it's one input to the SIG
  119. stpeter other proposals might emerge, I'd think
  120. fippo kev: sox is different from the whole jingle topic
  121. Kev fippo: Is it, though?
  122. fippo kev: if you read it, that is even what the authors say
  123. Dave Cridland fippo, I think given that it's a VOIP thing, it's certainly related to some degree.
  124. Kev fippo: The preamble says about needing to do it because you can't map the SDP inside a browser to Jingle. That seems quite heavily related.
  125. fippo right. i do think that sox is very useful for dealing with sip hardware (deskphones)
  126. fippo and i don't think jingle will ever be successful there
  127. Dave Cridland It'd be nice to see if we could address this.
  128. Tobias is this an official meeting or just bringing kev up to date?
  129. Kev It's an official meeting.
  130. Kev Although we've moved into getting Kev up to date, what we're discussing seems pertinent.
  131. Kev Unless people would like us to officially finish and carry on post-meeting.
  132. stpeter is, shockingly, coding and thus not paying the closest of attention
  133. m&m 0.o
  134. Peter Waher I have a small question before you finish
  135. Kev So, I'm largely of the opinion that before pushing out more XEPs about the interaction between SIP/SDP/Jingle or just VOIP in general, we should see what the Band Of Daves have to say.
  136. Kev Unless someone has a pressing technical or political reason to publish SOX now.
  137. Kev Peter Waher: Shoot
  138. fippo stpeter: maybe joe has to give kev the talk he gave us in brussels ;-)
  139. Peter Waher if the color field type xep has been approved, is it possible to assign it a number?
  140. Peter Waher Also a small comment: I've addressed all comments and suggestions in the HTTP over XMPP XEP. It would be nice to be able to move it to Experimental
  141. Tobias Kev, just asking since i didn't see roll call and stuff
  142. Peter Waher when you're ready
  143. stpeter fippo: yeah
  144. Kev Peter Waher: If I'm right, and no-one objected, we can give it a number. For HTTP it needs another vote.
  145. Peter Waher thanks
  146. Kev Oh, I owe comments on RTT too, for the LC. Bother.
  147. m&m |-:
  148. stpeter Peter Waher: I think you're correct about the color spec, let's check the history here....
  149. Kev Ah, I see that stpeter did publish the new http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/http-over-xmpp.html - I just didn't notice it inside another thread.
  150. stpeter Kev: yes
  151. Kev That's one to vote on next week, then.
  152. Kev Anyway, we're at time.
  153. Kev Tobias: m&m called Roles at the start.
  154. Kev Date of next meeting?
  155. Kev I'm going to be continually late from now on if we keep them at 15:00, I think.
  156. Kev Moving somewhere 15:15 or 15:30 would be much easier for me.
  157. Tobias Kev, ahh..didn't notice it then...nvm
  158. stpeter at http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2013-June/003716.html I see: > 3) ProtoXEP: Data Forms - Color Field Type < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/color-parameter.html > > Accept as Experimental? > > RM, TM, MW have no objections. MM has objections (prefixing of XEP-0122 elements). Author(s) to submit a revision correcting XEP-0122 use. > KS have one fortnight to note objections. (KEV:) Not relevant as MM has blocked.
  159. stpeter m&m: were your concerns addressed?
  160. m&m yes, and I said as much on one of the lists
  161. Peter Waher I responded to the standards list and MM revoked his objection
  162. Kev Ah, yes. I didn't have objections to this.
  163. MattJ I can't do 15:30
  164. MattJ I can probably do 15:00
  165. Kev MattJ: 15:00 is what we do now.
  166. Dave Cridland MattJ, UTC.
  167. MattJ That is so
  168. m&m anything at 16:00 or later is too difficult for me
  169. stpeter would another day work better for your gentlemen?
  170. MattJ My gentlemen would be ok with another day
  171. MattJ they said
  172. Kev Pretty much any time in the work week other than 14:00 to 15:15 on a Wednesday would probably be fine for me.
  173. m&m My gentlemen do not exist, but my hooligans think Monday or Thursday works fine
  174. Kev Is there anyone that couldn't do it if we simply moved it back (later) 15mins?
  175. MattJ +15 is fine with me
  176. stpeter Peter Waher: verified at http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html
  177. Kev None of the 'can't do' above covered this, I think.
  178. Dave Cridland When's the Board meeting these days?
  179. m&m 15:15 would overlap other meetings I have
  180. Kev Dave Cridland: Nonexistent? :)
  181. stpeter m&m: even if Council is 15 minutes? ;-)
  182. Dave Cridland Kev, Ah.
  183. Tobias +15 wfm
  184. Kev How about 15:10, and keep it to 20mins?
  185. m&m IFF council were switched to a 15 minute meeting, then I think it would usually work
  186. Kev I'm only ever so slightly not able to make 15:00, 10mins would cover it.
  187. Peter Waher Regarding color field type: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html
  188. m&m 15:10 works for me
  189. Kev Peter Waher: Yes, stpeter linked that a few minutes ago.
  190. Peter Waher saw that too late :)
  191. Kev OK. Let's go for 15:10 and hope I can be less rubbish at that than at 15:00.
  192. Kev Any other business?
  193. Tobias ok
  194. MattJ Ok
  195. Dave Cridland Oh, two things for this SIG - it doesn't have a name, currently, nor any terms of reference beyond "We should look at Jingle properly and see about making it work better with WebRTC".
  196. m&m Jingle: The Next Iteration?
  197. Kev Name, rose, sweet, etc.
  198. Kev "Future Jingle SIG"
  199. Dave Cridland SOunds good.
  200. Kev Anything else?
  201. Tobias or short Fingle
  202. m&m Future Understanding of Signalling (FUS)
  203. MattJ "Life After Google"
  204. Kev I suggest that the SIG can choose a suitable name as its first item and we can avoid doing it here :)
  205. fippo i'd prefer FUSS ;-)
  206. Kev But, for the record, blue.
  207. Kev Right, I think we're done.
  208. Kev Thanks all.
  209. Kev bangs the gavel.
  210. m&m Future Understanding of Signaling Specifications
  211. m&m there
  212. MattJ Thanks Kev
  213. Dave Cridland (I'm trying to figure out a backronym for FUJ, now)
  214. m&m goes on to json
  215. Tobias yay
  216. m&m Future Undermining of Jingle
  217. MattJ Fear, Uncertainty and Jingle
  218. stpeter heh
  219. m&m nice
  220. stpeter Peter Waher: the color XEP will be published imminently
  221. Peter Waher thanks :)
  222. stpeter done
  223. Lance has joined
  224. stpeter Lance: aw, you missed all the fun! ;-)
  225. jabberjocke stpeter: could you add the key for me to keep it updated as work proceed
  226. stpeter jabberjocke: I would prefer for Peter to update his own specifications -- if he would like to make you a co-author on all of the specs, then I'd be happy with having you do the check-ins, but if not then it would be best for Peter to learn about git so that he can check in his own changes
  227. stpeter it feels strange to me for someone who is not an author to be checking in code/text for someone else
  228. jabberjocke ok we'd better do some education :)
  229. stpeter hehe
  230. stpeter it's good to know about source control anyway
  231. stpeter source control is your friend :-)
  232. jabberjocke would gladly help out in some of that tedious work you have, which you mentioned last council
  233. stpeter wow, I just received my first-ever spam message in Latvian
  234. stpeter jabberjocke: yes, I need to think about how we can structure the work, and I really appreciate the fact that you've volunteered!
  235. stpeter jabberjocke: I will report about that at next week's meeting
  236. stpeter or before, on the standards@ list
  237. Lance stpeter: i always miss the fun meetings :/
  238. fippo lance: we can have a fun meeting where we decide how to remote-control a camera over jingle (-:
  239. Lance adhoc commands. done
  240. stpeter goes back to his Python coding
  241. fippo doh, i hadn't considered that one
  242. Lance that would fit nicely with the existing remote controlling clients xeps
  243. stpeter nods to Lance
  244. jabberjocke stpeter throw an email a bit busy next week or i just check the loggs
  245. stpeter jabberjocke: ok!
  246. fippo right, but it's part of and associated with the jingle session. heh, we now have an sig where we can discuss that
  247. Peter Waher fippo: PS: Just as a side comment: Controlling web cameras is one of the use cases of the IoT-control XEP, and is more documented on the soon-to-be-published-but-available-on-the-wiiki protoXEP IoT Interoperability.
  248. stpeter Peter Waher: cool :-)
  249. fippo yai!
  250. dwd has joined
  251. dwd Folks, The XMPP Council has formed a new SIG as per XEP-0002. The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider. SIGs have a chair role and some leaders - roughly equivalent to Kevin Smith and the XMPP Council's roles respectively - this leadership is chosen, and serves, at the Council's discretion and currently comprises of: Dave Cridland (Chair) Philipp Hancke Ralph Meijer Lance Stout The leadership is primarily there to act as a final judge of the technical quality of the directions the SIG gives, and ensure that suggestions and comments do not slip below the radar. Since it is subject to change, if you'd be able to pitch in, please let either me or the XMPP Council know.
  252. Dave Cridland That's what I have written as a draft to send to the jingle@ list. Any comments or objections?
  253. fippo '+1
  254. Lance +1
  255. stpeter WFM
  256. Dave Cridland Kev, ?
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  258. fippo if emil ivov was awake i would immediately recruit him
  259. stpeter Lance: thanks for the Python feedback, I'm in the midst of a more general refactor at the moment, too ;-)
  260. Kev Dave Cridland: I would note that the desired output is a plan to ensure we can maintain interoperability across device types using XMPP.
  261. Kev Although not necessarily with those words.
  262. Kev That is: My big concern with things like SoX, SDPoJ and legacy Jingle is that we start creating interop zones where phones can interop with SIP but not with Jingle, browsers can only interop with each other, etc.
  263. Kev I would like us to have A Plan, rather than three competing plans.
  264. fippo kev: sox is more for cusax scenarios i think
  265. m&m wow, I think I'll need to declare bankruptcy on this topic sooner than I thought
  266. stpeter bankruptcy?
  267. m&m that I can't follow this topic with the attention it needs (-:
  268. Peter Waher Regarding camera control, using IoT-Sensor-data & IoT-control, check the XMPP.IoT.Media.Camera interface in the Interoperability protoXEP: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/joachimlindborg/XMPP-IoT/blob/master/xep-0000-IoT-Interoperability.html
  269. fippo m&m: you guys might simply merge my pull request on dna and be done with that ;-)
  270. Kev m&m: I really would like to have the cycles this deserves.
  271. stpeter fippo: IMHO, SoX is useful when you have a mixed infrastructure of SIP-only endpoints and XMPP-only endpoints (and perhaps even CUSAX endpoints), and you don't want a stateful gateway / translator in the middle
  272. dwd The XMPP Council has formed a new Special Interest Group ("SIG") as per XEP-0002, called the "Future Jingle SIG". The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon, which will maximize interoperability across a wide range of devices and environments. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider.
  273. Dave Cridland New paras to address Kev's comment. And actually say what a SIG is.
  274. Kev Dave Cridland: That's great by me, thanks.
  275. stpeter personally, I would like to get the SoX proposal published as a XEP, and encourage other proposals as well so that we can have documentation of the various approaches (just as we did years ago for pubsub)
  276. stpeter but I've always been in favor of publishing and not leaving things in the inbox
  277. stpeter shrugs
  278. stpeter back to Python... :-)
  279. jabberjocke fippo: you have a link to the pull request
  280. stpeter oh and hmph, I need to get my Prosody server running again...
  281. fippo jabberjocke: the dna (domain name assertions) one?
  282. Kev stpeter: I'm not opposed to publishing SoX in the same way we did DMUCs with a "This is published as a discussion point to inform the SIG formed for investigation of the future of Jingle. It is not intended to be implemented until/unless the SIG has formed its conclusions" or something.
  283. fippo kev: that reminds me that last friday i had to implement dmuc2 ;-)
  284. Kev fippo: Heh.
  285. fippo maybe a new status "for discussion purposes"?
  286. stpeter fippo: they're all for discussion purposes, IMHO
  287. jabberjocke fippo: missed you where aiming to m&m
  288. Dave Cridland "Experimental, but this time we really mean it"?
  289. fippo btw: we also need to get rid of this scary red line for xeps that have been deferred because of inactivity...
  290. Dave Cridland Having XEPs which are broken in Experimental does both encourage people to get them through to Draft, and also avoids the kind of Proposed-Means-Standard thing that's happened at the IETF.
  291. jabberjocke I alos like that fact
  292. Kev Dave Cridland: It's already happened. Draft means Final.
  293. Kev Experimental means Draft, and Deferred means Experimental :)
  294. Kev (Well, kinda)
  295. jabberjocke we are definitely aiming Draft for IoT Xeps
  296. Peter Waher (at least)
  297. Peter Waher IoT architecture & installations have life spans of +10 years, and need to be stable
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