Wednesday, July 03, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[07:54:59] <Kev> Ralph: Thanks.
[07:55:10] <Kev> Reminding everyone that we're starting 10mins later today (and limiting ourselves to 20mins).
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[15:03:43] *ralphm waves
[15:04:23] <m&m> T - 6 minutes?
[15:04:29] <ralphm> affirmative
[15:04:52] <m&m> hmm … the XSF calendar doesn't reflect it
[15:05:47] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:06:06] <stpeter> no, I didn't update the calendar
[15:06:08] <stpeter> yet
[15:08:42] <Kev> T - 4 minutes.
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[15:11:04] <Kev> It is time.
[15:11:17] <Kev> 1) Roll call
[15:11:19] <Kev> I'm here!
[15:11:20] <stpeter> Harpier cries, 'tis time, 'tis time!
[15:11:22] <m&m> presente
[15:11:23] <ralphm> aye
[15:11:34] <MattJ> I'm here
[15:11:38] <Kev> I can't see a Tobias to poke.
[15:11:56] <m&m> we still have quorum
[15:12:02] <Kev> We have.
[15:12:07] <Kev> 2) HTTP over XMPP.
[15:12:21] <Kev> I didn't catch up on this (RTT took me a while!) will vote on list.
[15:12:50] <ralphm> No objections.
[15:13:03] <MattJ> No objection here either
[15:13:31] <MattJ> But I'm waiting for UPnP over XMPP
[15:13:31] <m&m> I've no objections to Experimental
[15:13:37] <Kev> OK.
[15:13:43] <Kev>
3) Chat Markers
Discuss Kev's concerns
[15:13:56] <ralphm> MattJ: I'm pretty sure I remember people doing exactly that.
[15:13:58] <Kev> So, I wanted to discuss this because I'm surprised that everyone else is OK with it :)
[15:14:22] <MattJ> I'm not, I'm rather behind on the new stuff
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[15:14:37] <Kev> MattJ: You've 'no objectioned it', I thought?
[15:14:53] <MattJ> Markers?
[15:14:56] <Kev> Yes.
[15:15:15] *MattJ loads a previous week's brain dump
[15:15:44] <Kev> It seems to me that the current proposal is kinda broken, and that just doing what 184 does but s/delivered/read/, combined with MAM/carbons would solve the discussed issues.
[15:16:08] <MattJ> Ok, yes
[15:16:19] <MattJ> I did, and I did read the new version, I somehow forgot that
[15:16:33] <Kev> I'd like to block it on this basis, so would like everyone else who wants to publish it to tell me I'm wrong :)
[15:16:59] <MattJ> On the basis that it's in the style of XEP-0184, but doing things that 184 cannot?
[15:17:31] <Kev> MattJ: On the basis that it's doing stuff similar to 184, in a different way to 184, such that the proposed way is broken and just copy/paste of 184 wouldn't be.
[15:17:56] <ralphm> Kev: I'm not sure what you mean with 'OK with it'. I make a pretty big distinction between allowing a proposal become experimental and moving it to Draft. We have had multiple (slightly overlapping) proposals on several topics before, and I am entirely fine with that.
[15:18:14] <stpeter> Kev: as in, define 184+ which covers "read" instead of "delivered"? or augment existing 184 to add "read">
[15:18:16] <Kev> It's not the overlappingness that bothers me with this one, it's that it's broken.
[15:18:25] <MattJ> Oh, right - you have a point... in that if we mandate Carbons+MAM as part of the solution, XEP-0184 can work?
[15:18:32] <Kev> stpeter: Either way. But exactly 184 syntax other than s/delivered/read/.
[15:18:40] *stpeter nods to Kev
[15:18:41] <MattJ> I think there was some justification of this on the list
[15:18:46] <Kev> MattJ: 184 can work, as can s184/delivered/read/
[15:18:56] <Kev> And that these /would/ work, while the proposal doesn't.
[15:19:30] <waqas> Chat Markers is also tied to UI interaction, which is extremely rare for a XEP
[15:19:51] <MattJ> Then I guess the next step is for some more concrete proposals (even just to the list) on how XEP-0184 could be used/adapted for this purpose
[15:20:39] <stpeter> MattJ: right
[15:21:07] <Kev> Please don't say I've volunteered myself :/
[15:21:16] <MattJ> Too late :)
[15:21:32] <m&m> you're the one objecting the strongest
[15:21:43] <ralphm> So yeah, maybe this spec currently doesn't do the most desirable thing (if at all). I awarded it no objections, because of the attempt to solve a problem people are experiencing. It might very well be that indeed using XEP-0184 is better a approach combined with Carbons+MAM. This could be done either in an updated version of this spec or as modifications to XEP-0184.
[15:21:47] <Kev> True. I'm not entirely sure why everyone else isn't, which is what bothers me.
[15:22:08] <Kev> i.e. am I wrong about it being broken?
[15:22:09] <m&m> I am in the same position as Ralph
[15:22:15] <stpeter> I admit that I haven't paid close attention to the Chat Markers discussion
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[15:22:20] <m&m> And I don't see this being fundamentally broken
[15:22:25] <ralphm> m&m: right
[15:22:40] <m&m> particularly the assumption that:
you're always going to be sending them to a contact you're already in
a chat with, and therefore will be bound to the full JID.
[15:22:46] <m&m> I think is false
[15:23:18] <MattJ> I'm in the same position as m&m and Ralph, but I do think Kev's proposal has merit, it just needs a bit more elaboration
[15:23:39] <Kev> OK, but that wasn't the fundamental brokenness. The fundamental brokenness was saying "I have seen everything up to X" - when you have no idea what was up to X.
[15:23:57] <Kev> You either need to enumerate what you've seen, or ack individually (like 184).
[15:24:14] <Kev> Otherwise you have the situation of something like
[15:24:32] <ralphm> Kev: so wouldn't it be great to have this proposal as a starting point and then has it out with the authors on the standards list?
[15:24:39] <ralphm> hash it out
[15:24:47] <Kev> <A> Man down, need evac. [gets lost]
<A> And I fancy a cup of tea
<B> I have seen every message up to 'cup of tea'
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[15:25:12] <MattJ> Kev, but it's not designed for ensuring reliability...
[15:25:24] <MattJ> I think that's better left to other parts of the stack
[15:25:26] <Kev> MattJ: You're confirming that you have read a message.
[15:25:44] <Kev> MattJ: That's the strongest form of assertion that a stanza has been delivered.
[15:25:51] <stpeter> hmmmm
[15:25:55] <Peter Waher> Sorry I'm late. If there are any questions/comments on the HTTP over XMPP XEP proposal, I'm happy to answer
[15:26:08] <stpeter> clearly I need to look at Chat Markers more carefully
[15:26:13] <stpeter> not that I have a vote :-)
[15:26:14] <MattJ> Kev, then it's enough to satisfy your concerns with a note in the XEP that it depends on reliable delivery?
[15:26:15] <Kev> Most people don't need that sort of assertion, and those that do would presumably be unhappy if it was unreliable.
[15:26:51] <Kev> MattJ: That it can only be used if 184 is also used for every message? That would work, but boy is it ugly.
[15:27:19] <Kev> Anyway. 3 minutes to go. I'll send objections to the list
[15:27:26] <Kev> Peter Waher: Thanks. I need to vote onlist on that.
[15:27:27] <MattJ> Great :)
[15:27:32] <Kev> 4) RTT - move to Draft
[15:27:36] <ralphm> While I welcome discussion on this spec, I'd rather have this done on the standards list, with a published first spec as basis.
[15:27:48] <m&m> exactly what ralphm says
[15:27:54] <Kev> I'd like to see the current discussion resolved before we move to Draft, as normative language is involved.
[15:28:04] *stpeter is always in favor of publishing stuff as Experimental
[15:28:11] <stpeter> Kev: fine with me
[15:28:22] <ralphm> Kev: above comments were still on Chat Markers
[15:28:23] <Kev> I'm in favour of publishing most stuff to Experimental, unless it's obviously broken, which I think this is.
[15:28:32] <Kev> Yes, I gathered :)
[15:29:23] <Kev> Anyone else want to express an opinion on RTT?
[15:29:24] <stpeter> so hopefully the RTT discussion can be completed soon and then the Council can have a vote
[15:29:31] <ralphm> As for RTT, I think the recent comments on the list should result in an extension of the LC phase.
[15:29:37] <Kev> WFM.
[15:29:38] <m&m> agreed
[15:29:40] <stpeter> nod
[15:29:41] <Kev> Fab.
[15:29:44] <Kev> 5) Date of next
[15:29:50] <Kev> Same 15:10 time, next wek?
[15:29:51] <Kev> +e
[15:29:57] <stpeter> fine here
[15:29:57] <ralphm> Should we set a new date for LC?
[15:29:58] <m&m> let's just assume that's the case
[15:30:03] <MattJ> +1
[15:30:06] <stpeter> ralphm: not needed, I think
[15:30:09] <Kev> OK.
[15:30:10] <ralphm> stpeter: ok
[15:30:13] <Kev> 6) AOB?
[15:30:14] <ralphm> I'm ok with this time
[15:30:22] <m&m> as long as it gets into the calendar!
[15:30:23] <m&m> (-:
[15:30:25] <ralphm> I'll just show up around 15:00UTC as before
[15:30:39] <ralphm> And then wait until a chair shows up
[15:30:43] <m&m> I need my 10-minute warning bell
[15:30:43] <Peter Waher> What was the conclusion about the HTTP over XMPP proposal?
[15:30:44] <stpeter> ralphm: LC often gets "extended" -- in fact I think we have a few specs that the Council hasn't voted on yet and for which the last calls started months ago, right?
[15:30:55] *stpeter checks
[15:30:58] <m&m> Peter Waher: Kevin still needs to weigh in
[15:31:00] <MattJ> Peter Waher, all accepted but Kev, who will vote on the list
[15:31:05] <m&m> which he will do on list
[15:31:06] <stpeter> oh, time for a conference call here, will check later
[15:31:13] <Peter Waher> ok
[15:31:13] <MattJ> Have fun
[15:31:19] <ralphm> As a minor side project I worked on some CSS thingies for a nice side ribbon for XEPs
[15:31:27] <Kev> ralphm: Lovely.
[15:31:30] <Kev> stpeter: Ta, bibi.
[15:31:57] <m&m> back to the official meeting — I've got no AOB
[15:32:05] <Kev> Excellent.
[15:32:15] <ralphm> nothing else from me
[15:32:18] <Kev> Ta.
[15:32:19] *m&m awaits to gavel to get back to JSON
[15:32:22] <Kev> I think we're done then.
[15:32:24] *Kev bangs the gavel
[15:32:25] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:32:28] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[15:32:31] <m&m> grazie
[15:32:32] <ralphm> Thanks!
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[15:33:43] <ralphm> Kev: if you decide to -1 chat markers on list, could you just send your objections to the standards list to go with it?
[15:33:53] <Kev> ralphm: Yes.
[15:33:59] <ralphm> awesome
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[15:35:04] <ralphm> Looks like next FOSDEM will be under a new King.
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[15:36:44] <ralphm> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23167525
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