Wednesday, July 24, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
July
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
       
             
XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

[00:15:49] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[00:21:20] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[00:56:44] *** m&m shows as "online"
[01:01:51] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[01:12:38] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[01:49:40] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[01:54:36] *** m&m has left the room
[01:59:40] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[02:21:02] *** m&m has joined the room
[02:21:27] *** m&m has left the room
[02:21:32] *** m&m has joined the room
[02:21:54] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[02:24:54] *** Tobias has left the room
[02:24:59] *** Tobias has joined the room
[02:25:03] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[02:31:54] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[03:01:35] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[03:01:37] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[03:02:37] *** Tobias has left the room
[03:11:47] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[03:21:47] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[04:13:11] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[04:23:11] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[04:31:14] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[04:45:05] *** m&m has left the room
[04:45:05] *** m&m has joined the room
[04:47:04] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[04:55:14] *** m&m has left the room
[05:09:18] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[05:19:32] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[05:28:04] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[05:38:59] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[05:43:43] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[06:12:19] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[06:22:31] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[06:32:32] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[06:38:55] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[06:49:15] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[06:52:43] *** Kev has joined the room
[06:52:43] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:10:19] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[07:11:05] *** Kev shows as "away"
[07:27:19] *** bear has left the room
[07:43:09] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[08:00:25] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:02:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:28:48] *** Kev shows as "away"
[09:37:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[09:37:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:39:17] *** Kev shows as "online"
[09:50:48] *** Kev shows as "away"
[09:56:11] *** Kev shows as "online"
[10:09:01] *** Kev shows as "away"
[10:28:15] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[10:38:15] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of being idle"
[10:46:54] *** Tobias has left the room
[10:47:15] *** Tobias has joined the room
[10:47:16] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[11:00:27] *** Kev shows as "online"
[12:01:57] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[12:05:01] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[12:05:04] *** MattJ has left the room
[12:05:04] *** MattJ has joined the room
[12:05:21] <MattJ> Meeting today? Do we have an agenda?
[12:06:19] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[12:06:30] <Kev> Yes, meeting today. I even have something for the agenda.
[12:06:52] <Kev> Which is that Fippo thinks the deferred 'you don't want to do this' text is too strong, so we should discuss.
[12:08:14] <MattJ> +1
[12:08:20] <MattJ> What's next? :D
[12:13:38] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[12:14:01] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[12:14:37] <Kev> I disagree, incidentally :)
[12:14:45] <Kev> But I do have a counter-proposal.
[12:15:03] <Kev> That's all I have for the Council meeting. I don't think there are any protoXEPs waiting.
[12:15:23] <MattJ> None that I know of
[12:16:57] <Tobias> hopefully i can produce a bit more work for the council over the next weeks :)
[12:17:34] <Kev> "thanks"
[12:30:49] *** m&m has joined the room
[13:07:14] *** Tobias has left the room
[13:21:02] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[13:24:20] *** fippo has joined the room
[13:25:15] *** m&m shows as "online"
[13:30:47] *** Tobias has joined the room
[13:30:50] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[13:49:57] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:11:16] <Tobias> m&m, possible use of posh would require DNA support in the server, right?
[14:11:58] <m&m> it would … although DNA is a framework, not an actual protocol
[14:12:08] <m&m> at least for the connecting/verifying server
[14:12:16] <m&m> (or client)
[14:28:39] <fippo> tobias: well, that depends on the verifying server
[14:28:49] <fippo> it might be just another way to do dial-back
[14:29:21] <Tobias> fippo, just wondering what, most likely, will be the standard way of doing it so i can implement it as a prosody module :)
[14:30:06] <fippo> tobias: just try everything before actually doing <db:verify/> :-)
[14:31:04] <Tobias> that smells like brute force :)
[14:31:25] <m&m> there's not really a better way to go right now, though
[14:31:34] <m&m> although, there are only 3 options
[14:31:46] <m&m> 1) just check the PKIX (-:
[14:31:50] <m&m> 2) DANE/DNSSEC
[14:31:53] <m&m> 3) POSH
[14:33:02] <fippo> 4) cridlands samecert
[14:33:11] <fippo> 9999) <db:verify/>
[14:33:57] <m&m> db:verify is not a prooftype
[14:35:30] <ralphm> Unfortunately, I have to pick up my car from repair right about now. I cannot attend the Council meeting in time.
[14:35:42] <m&m> arrgh!
[14:35:53] <ralphm> I sent a message to the list regarding our notices above Deferred XEPs.
[14:36:13] <ralphm> I should be back in time for the Jingle SIG meeting.
[14:39:50] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "I'm out enjoying life"
[14:47:26] <Kev> ralphm: Thanks.
[14:47:56] <Kev> m&m: Why is db:verify not a prooftype?
[14:49:31] <Kev> I should rather say. I think db:verify is reasonable as a prooftype, as we'd be better off getting adoption by rolling what's actually used in, rather than trying to bootstrap based on things we've yet to manage to achieve.
[14:50:53] <m&m> hold on
[14:53:48] <m&m> the problem with treating db:verify as a prooftype (as defined in draft-ietf-xmpp-dna) is that you are bootstrapping from untrustworthy sources (DNS)
[14:54:43] <m&m> DNSSEC makes those sources more trustworthy, but at that point you've already confirmed the identity
[14:59:15] *** stpeter has joined the room
[14:59:23] *** stpeter shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[14:59:51] <fippo> m&m: sure. but this offers an upgrade path.
[15:00:07] <fippo> and fwiw, I think it can be totally eliminated thanks to samecert
[15:00:13] <fippo> (which isn't a prooftype either)
[15:00:40] <stpeter> howdy
[15:01:05] <stpeter> brb
[15:02:57] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:04:16] <MattJ> There was something I didn't like about samecert
[15:04:20] <MattJ> but I can't remember what
[15:05:06] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:06:03] <fippo> mattj: it's about the same level of proof as <db:verify/>
[15:06:09] <fippo> just less roundtrips
[15:06:34] <fippo> it still has the problem that it works and therefore hides problems instead of breaking
[15:07:33] <stpeter> what is samecert?
[15:08:08] <MattJ> stpeter, instead of looking up DNS, check that the certs on the originating and the authoritative are the same
[15:08:09] <Kev> I assume, from the name, was the incoming stream negotiated with the same cert I get if I connect to that server.
[15:08:15] <fippo> http://jabber.soup.io/post/88601075/Dave-Cridland-Dialback-Now-without-dialback
[15:09:00] <fippo> the paragraph that starts with "My first suggestion"
[15:09:10] *stpeter checks in for his flight to Berlin tomorrow
[15:09:53] <fippo> re berlin i might have gotten some of the free software foundation europe people interested in joining the hackfest
[15:10:02] <stpeter> fippo: cool
[15:10:25] <Kev> Right. It is time, it is time.
[15:10:27] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[15:10:41] <Tobias> hereo
[15:10:44] <Kev> I am here. Ralph is not, as he is seeing to a sick car, and sent apologies just up there ^
[15:11:10] <m&m> presente
[15:11:17] <MattJ> Here
[15:11:52] <Kev> Righty.
[15:12:14] <Kev> 2) Fippo thought that the deferred text was confusing to people who don't know better, and maybe it shouldn't say that people shouldn't implement.
[15:12:22] <Kev> Ralph posted the following suggested text to the list:
[15:12:32] <Kev> The above is just one example of confusion about our standards process I've encountered recently, specifically the 'Deferred' state. The current notice reads:

WARNING: Consideration of this document has been *Deferred* by the
XMPP Standards Foundation. Implementation of the protocol described
herein is not recommended.

I propose the following instead:

WARNING: This document has been automatically *Deferred* after 12
months of inactivity in its previous *Experimental* state.
Implementation of the protocol described herein is not recommended
for production systems. However, exploratory implementations are
encouraged to resume the standards process.
[15:12:45] *fippo likes the text ralph sent.
[15:13:12] <m&m> it's a definite improvement
[15:13:14] <fippo> i think we had the reason for deferring it closer to that line before we moved all the changelog stuff to the end
[15:13:22] <Kev> I'd like a reference to XEP-0001 for each of the states, not just deferred. I thought Ralph's text was a reasonable base. I'd like to tweak further, but a definite improvement.
[15:13:31] *stpeter nods
[15:14:25] <Kev> Actually, I'm not sure how much I'd like to tweak it further, that text is pretty good.
[15:15:13] <Kev> I think we could reasonably wordsmith Experimental too, in similar ways.
[15:15:24] <stpeter> quite possibly
[15:15:35] <stpeter> I haven't actually read any of that text in quite a while
[15:15:46] <MattJ> Yes, Ralph's text is fine
[15:15:47] <Kev> Anyway. Would everyone be happy with making the Ralph change + xep1 reference? (Including Peter)
[15:16:01] <MattJ> I was wondering about the last sentence, but I think it's ok
[15:16:04] <Tobias> i'm okay with ralph's text too...it sure is an improvement
[15:16:13] <Kev> I think the last sentence is important in purpose.
[15:16:24] <m&m> yes
[15:16:27] <stpeter> all of those informational status paragraphs ought to include links to XEP-0001
[15:16:30] <Kev> Because 'deferred' is scary when people think it means 'retracted'.
[15:16:32] <MattJ> Me too, but I was thinking perhaps s/encourag/welcom/
[15:16:33] <Kev> or 'rejected'.
[15:16:57] <MattJ> But as I said, I think I've changed my mind, I like it as-is
[15:17:00] <Kev> I think we could make this chance and further wordsmith as time goes on.
[15:17:06] <Kev> s/chance/change/
[15:17:09] <m&m> exactly
[15:17:27] <Kev> fippo: And this resolves your complaint, right?
[15:17:34] <fippo> kev: absolutely
[15:17:38] <Kev> Marvellous.
[15:17:45] <Kev> I don't think we had anything else on the agenda, did we?
[15:17:49] <Kev> 3) Date of next meeting.
[15:17:59] <Kev> Next week's presumably going to clash clash with some other thing that's going on.
[15:18:09] <m&m> quite possibly
[15:18:30] <Kev> Week after, then?
[15:18:36] <Tobias> wfm
[15:18:36] <stpeter> heh
[15:18:37] <m&m> that works for me
[15:19:09] <stpeter> I will not be working the following week, but do feel free to have a fun meeting on the 7th
[15:19:32] <Kev> If Peter's not working, that probably means we're not going to have new things to talk about.
[15:19:50] <Kev> Assuming them popping up next week is unlikely
[15:19:54] <Kev> Should we skip a fortnight?
[15:20:32] <m&m> I'd rather not skip that long, even if there's nothing much to do
[15:20:38] <Kev> OK.
[15:20:38] <stpeter> yeah
[15:20:42] <Kev> Fortnight today, then.
[15:20:44] <stpeter> I'm just a figurehead anyway :P
[15:21:06] <Kev> stpeter: If you don't push protoXEPs, we have no work. Having no Council work to do appeals to me :)
[15:21:10] <Kev> 4) Any other business.
[15:21:17] <stpeter> heehee
[15:21:55] <MattJ> No other business, but a praise of the people (re)working on Jingle :)
[15:21:58] <fippo> kev: i think you might have explained your -1 on sox with your last post to jingle@
[15:22:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:22:07] <MattJ> Good to see the interest
[15:22:08] <ralphm> back
[15:22:22] <stpeter> I need to catch up on jinglish things before the meeting 9 minutes from now
[15:22:24] <Kev> fippo: As in "My post explained it" or "When I posted, I should have also explained..."?
[15:22:43] <Kev> ralphm: We decided to make you chief blurb-writer. That's about it.
[15:23:11] <fippo> kev: somewhere in between. i'd note that the sox authors actually have no intention to replace jingle though :-)
[15:23:17] <Kev> And yes, I'm very happy that people are working on Jingle in earnest. If only I had time to meaningfully contribute, other than snide remarks here and there.
[15:23:35] <ralphm> yay!
[15:24:00] <Kev> I think we're done?
[15:24:07] <MattJ> +1
[15:24:10] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:24:13] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[15:24:14] <Tobias> thank you
[15:24:15] <ralphm> Thanks!
[15:24:31] <ralphm> that was pretty efficient :-D
[15:24:36] <Kev> fippo: That may be obvious to you, but it's not obvious to the rest of (me) where SoX fits into a world where it improves interop rather than harming it.
[15:24:57] <Kev> fippo: And my -1 was provisional until the Jingle SIG produce a coherent argument about where all these things fit, rather than a blanket -1.
[15:25:34] <ralphm> with that, any other comments welcome in 5 minutes next door
[15:49:03] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[15:54:02] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[15:55:23] *** m&m shows as "online"
[15:56:38] *** bear has joined the room
[15:56:40] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[15:56:44] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[16:11:05] *** Tobias has left the room
[16:40:25] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "I'm eating, so leave me a message."
[16:46:33] *** Zash has joined the room
[16:46:34] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:51:22] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[16:56:35] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[17:01:47] *** m&m shows as "online"
[17:21:37] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[17:23:03] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[17:23:44] *** m&m shows as "online"
[17:39:07] *** m&m shows as "dnd" and his status message is "In a meeting!"
[17:40:06] *** m&m has left the room
[17:40:07] *** m&m has joined the room
[17:42:08] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:03:05] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[18:17:18] *** m&m shows as "online"
[18:18:55] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:23:21] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:24:47] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[18:33:44] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[18:35:29] *** m&m shows as "online"
[18:35:30] *** Zash has left the room
[18:44:49] *** Zash has joined the room
[18:44:49] *** Zash shows as "online"
[18:50:30] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[18:57:54] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:00:25] *** Zash has left the room
[19:01:57] *** m&m shows as "online"
[19:02:48] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[19:03:48] *** stpeter shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[19:03:53] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[19:12:48] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[19:49:18] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[19:55:27] *** m&m shows as "online"
[19:59:23] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:00:14] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[20:02:11] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[20:36:55] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "ZZZZzzzzzZZZZZ"
[20:37:38] *** Neustradamus shows as "away"
[20:37:49] *** Kev has left the room
[20:43:27] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[20:44:42] *** stpeter shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[20:58:34] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[21:02:30] *** stpeter shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[21:03:35] *** m&m shows as "dnd" and his status message is "In a meeting!"
[21:14:38] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[21:40:51] *** stpeter shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[21:44:52] *** m&m shows as "online"
[21:46:46] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[21:56:47] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:02:19] *** Tobias has joined the room
[22:02:22] *** m&m has left the room
[22:02:23] *** m&m has joined the room
[22:02:24] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:06:46] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[22:12:41] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:18:36] *** stpeter shows as "dnd" and his status message is "Busy"
[22:20:19] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[22:22:41] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[22:31:13] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:41:30] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[23:15:06] *** m&m has left the room
[23:16:44] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[23:38:21] *** stpeter shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[23:38:46] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[23:40:18] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[23:46:04] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[23:48:46] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[23:50:31] *** bear shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"