Wednesday, August 14, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:04:55] <Kev> Same as last week's unmeeting, the only thing I see in the agenda for today is http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dynamic-forms.html
[14:05:45] <Tobias> ok
[14:06:05] <Zash> Will m&m be around for that IETF summary?
[14:09:25] <m&m> I will try
[14:09:37] <Zash> :D
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[14:10:01] <m&m> I started the day quadruple-booked for meetings … now I'm down to double-booked (-:
[14:10:09] <Tobias> heh
[14:15:32] <m&m> if I'm not here … I am −1 on dynamic forms, unless the author can explain why ad-hoc commands is not suitable
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[15:00:21] <Kev> Meeting in 9 minutes.
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[15:01:10] <Kev> m&m: Do you believe that dynamic-forms can be done using -50 then, without all the extra business logic that's the core bit of the proposal?
[15:01:32] <m&m> yes
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[15:02:30] <Kev> I don't see it.
[15:02:54] <Kev> I mean, I can see how you could build the same stuff on top of 50 that this builds on top of 4, but it still seems to be building stuff on top of XX.
[15:03:31] <ralphm> Present
[15:03:44] <Kev> ralphm: You've got 6mins yet :)
[15:05:27] <Kev> m&m: I don't see how -50 gives you ways of the client telling the server "I've got a value in this field now, but the form's not complete yet" or of the server replying with "Oh, OK, add these fields to the form, then".
[15:06:00] <m&m> -50 supports multiple stages, which could fulfill the same role
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[15:06:30] <Kev> Yes and no.
[15:06:52] <Kev> Because if you want the -50 stages to support that, you then lose the ability for -50 stages to support multiple stages.
[15:07:43] <Peter Waher> hello
[15:07:46] <m&m> that makes no sense
[15:07:47] <Kev> Peter Waher: Howdy.
[15:07:53] <Kev> m&m: It makes lots of sense :)
[15:08:04] <m&m> why can't the next stage send the form up to the point it knows of?
[15:08:07] <m&m> I've done this in the past
[15:08:17] <m&m> and now I'm in my next meeting
[15:08:27] <Kev> m&m: If you use multi-stage to be used for incomplete data submission, like the proposal needs, you can't also use multi-stage for multi-stage forms in their traditional sense.
[15:08:28] <m&m> don't know if I'll be paying enough attention here … sorry
[15:08:31] *stpeter is indeed on a conference call and won't have much attention for the Council meeting
[15:08:39] <ralphm> stpeter: booh
[15:08:54] <Kev> Because you lose the ability to say "This is the next stage and I really mean it this time, please give me the next stage not the updated version of this stage".
[15:08:59] <Kev> And ding, it's time.
[15:09:06] <Kev> So
1) Roll call.
[15:09:12] <Tobias> here
[15:09:17] <m&m> not really heere
[15:09:20] <Kev> m&m is absent with apologies in a strange manner.
[15:09:37] <m&m> double-booked meetings
[15:09:42] <m&m> I can't help it today
[15:09:45] <m&m> nor next week
[15:09:58] <ralphm> here
[15:10:06] <Tobias> maybe we should find a different time then, at the end of this meeting?
[15:10:15] <Kev> MattJ: Poke.
[15:10:23] <Kev> I'm amenable to other times.
[15:10:39] <Kev> Or other days, at least. The time slot is probably as good as we'll get.
[15:11:44] <Kev> MattJ only just joined, he can't be not here can he?
[15:11:55] <stpeter> ralphm: it seems that the UPnP folks might be interested in using XMPP to cloud-enable their technology, so I'm helping them through some of the issues they're facing
[15:12:21] <Kev> I guess he's not.
[15:12:32] <Kev> 2) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dynamic-forms.html
Accept as Experimental.
[15:12:37] <ralphm> stpeter: nice
[15:12:40] <Kev> m&m is -1, to post to list.
[15:13:04] <Kev> So I guess that makes everyone else irrelevant :)
[15:13:14] <Peter Waher> not necessarily
[15:13:32] <Peter Waher> since it might be relatively easy to respond to m&m's objections
[15:13:34] <Kev> Peter Waher: A single -1 is blocking, so it doesn't matter what the rest of us think.
[15:13:42] <Peter Waher> it would be good to hear what all think
[15:14:03] <MattJ> Present
[15:14:10] <Tobias> i'm +0, post-back is some strange term (don't know a better one off hand) and if xep-0050 is not suitable it could at least mentioned in the introduction why not, since data-forms and ad-hoc are deployed and used
[15:14:13] <MattJ> Sorry, clock I was watching seems to be a few mins out
[15:14:21] <ralphm> for what it is worth, I am not really convinced that the dynamic stuff needs additional protocol wrappers
[15:15:27] <Kev> I don't see how this stuff can be done with what we have without a spec of some sort or another (be it significant business logic on top of existing protocol, or new protocol). So I'm not objecting.
[15:15:28] <MattJ> I'm +0, since I haven't read the document yet, I'll read it and post my concerns to the thread if I have any
[15:16:46] <Kev> ralphm: So you're blocking it too, or not?
[15:17:09] <ralphm> That said, I am not objecting to publishing.
[15:17:13] <Peter Waher> the ad-hoc command was considered in the beginning, but was too different for the purpose. If m&m objects on list I can respond to why
[15:17:21] <Peter Waher> considered writing something about it in the xep
[15:17:25] <Peter Waher> but didn't
[15:17:34] <Peter Waher> can easilly add why it was not used
[15:17:46] <Kev> OK.
[15:17:51] <Kev> So, 3) Date of next meeting.
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[15:18:29] <Kev> Given m&m's the person with the conflicts, and he's not here, I don't see much point changing the date. Let's go for next week at 15:10UTC as usual, and we can change during the week if we want.
[15:18:32] <ralphm> Peter Waher: design choices are always great to have inside specs like this
[15:18:38] <ralphm> +1
[15:19:00] <Tobias> Kev, fine with me
[15:19:23] <Peter Waher> yes, I see that now. Thought about it, but for some reason I didn't add it. I'll correct that in my response to m&m on list
[15:19:36] <Kev> OK.
4) AOB?
[15:20:08] <Tobias> none here
[15:20:29] <MattJ> None here
[15:20:41] <Kev> Good enough.
[15:20:47] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:20:50] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[15:20:55] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[15:21:10] <Tobias> thanks
[15:21:11] <ralphm> Thanks!
[15:21:23] <Tobias> ralphm, you planned some changes to XEP's HTML rendering?
[15:21:33] <ralphm> oh, right
[15:21:46] <Tobias> in what direction?
[15:21:50] <ralphm> basically some additional CSS
[15:22:09] <Peter Waher> there are problems with rendering of images
[15:22:20] <Tobias> Peter Waher, got an example?
[15:22:24] <Peter Waher> img tags are rendered with width="" height=""
[15:22:35] <Peter Waher> since width and height attributes are forbidden according to the schema
[15:22:39] <Peter Waher> this works in FireFox
[15:22:45] <Peter Waher> but makes images invisible in IE
[15:22:54] <Peter Waher> (it's treated as width="0" height="0")
[15:23:30] <Tobias> Peter Waher, ah..right
[15:23:44] <Tobias> wonder if we can do something about that :)
[15:23:44] <Peter Waher> if you want, I can mail you a mail I sent to Peter Saint-André earlier
[15:24:14] *Tobias also needs to check how that looks in the pdf rendering :)
[15:24:43] <ralphm> you probably need to look at extensions/xep.xsl, where the attribute is rendered
[15:25:00] <Peter Waher> yes, I've proposed a correction
[15:25:05] <Tobias> great
[15:25:18] <Peter Waher> to whom do I mail it?
[15:25:50] <Tobias> can mail it to me
[15:25:55] <bear> if you cc me then I can look into fixing it
[15:25:56] <Tobias> tm@ayena.de
[15:27:13] <Peter Waher> bear: What's your mail address?
[15:27:22] <bear> bear@bear.im
[15:27:58] <Peter Waher> mail forwarded
[15:28:52] <Tobias> thx
[15:30:03] <bear> got it
[15:30:22] <Peter Waher> (y)
[15:30:36] <Zash> delivery receipts over xmpp! :D
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[15:34:54] <bear> tobias - I pushed the static site to the XSF github repo
[15:35:14] <bear> I am using the github repo just as a working area, the final repo will be our normal one
[15:35:39] <bear> i'll be adding more to the README to document what each area is
[15:35:54] *bear realizes he is spamming the wrong folks and will send email
[15:36:08] *stpeter promises to read the meeting log once he's finished with this conferene call...
[15:36:21] <Tobias> bear, we want to mix standards and our website repo?
[15:36:31] <bear> mix?
[15:36:45] <Tobias> well..do both stuff in a single repo
[15:37:15] <bear> that probably needs to be talked about - a lot of it has just been a few of us just doing things
[15:37:44] <bear> my reasoning for using github right now is just pure convienence, i'm in it every day
[15:37:52] <Tobias> heh
[15:38:12] <bear> and this test site needs some serious css love
[15:40:04] <Tobias> MattJ, got a link to that repo?
[15:40:05] <ralphm> Tobias: I see the gen.py depends on mercurial for versioning information?
[15:40:10] <MattJ> Which?
[15:40:30] <Tobias> ralphm, yes
[15:40:45] <ralphm> so you can't even build the XEPs from the git checkout
[15:41:28] <Tobias> you can using XSLT
[15:41:45] <ralphm> right
[15:41:53] <Tobias> gen.py renders the last version of a XEP that doesn't have an <interim/> tag in it
[15:42:07] <ralphm> or all
[15:43:31] <bear> part of why I spoke up to help - this needs to be "solved" for the static site generation
[15:43:57] *bear notes email sent
[15:44:34] <ralphm> for some reason the XEP generated from the repo have a smaller font size than on the web site
[15:52:25] <Tobias> ralphm, basically i went with hg in python because of the easy py api, i think back then there wasn't a good one for git
[15:54:13] <Tobias> i can try changing it to dulwich, but that's at the end of my todo :)
[15:54:36] <ralphm> I have a personal preference to hg, too
[15:54:45] <ralphm> but our generation process should depend on it
[15:55:00] <Tobias> should?
[15:55:10] <ralphm> not. I pull and push from github using mercurial with ease
[15:55:51] <Kev> Let's not go changing our repo format :)
[15:55:57] <Tobias> Kev, hahaha
[15:56:24] <Tobias> Kev, ever used dulwich?
[15:56:40] <Kev> I don't have a problem with the 'official' generation having dependencies, either. It's easy to generate the XEPs yourself when you're editing them.
[15:57:10] <Kev> Tobias: No.
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[16:33:37] *m&m finally has time to catch up …
[16:35:59] <m&m> 2) I will post my objections to the list by tomorrow (MDT)
[16:37:28] <m&m> 3) apologies for next week; conflicts with JSON WG interim meeting
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[16:38:18] <m&m> 4) I can send a summary of the POSH BoF to some list, if people care
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[16:46:17] <bear> m&m - please do send POSH summary
[16:46:24] <Zash> +1
[16:47:31] <m&m> ok, I'll send that at least to council@, fwd standards@ … sometime this week
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[20:25:43] *stpeter finally reads http://logs.xmpp.org/council/130814/ and sees that he has no action items so moves on ;-)
[20:26:00] <Kev> I need to do minutes. Probably several sets.
[20:26:30] <stpeter> I think at this point you probably need to sleep :P
[20:26:39] <m&m> sleep is for the weak
[20:26:39] <Kev> It's only 21:30.
[20:26:42] <m&m> (-:
[20:26:47] <Kev> I'll try and get minutes done tomorrow.
[20:26:52] <stpeter> Kev: thanks
[20:26:53] <Kev> The reason I've missed them is almost comical.
[20:27:01] <Kev> It's been hot in the UK (although not any more).
[20:27:23] <Kev> So I had my VM server shut off to save heating my study more than I needed. My TODO lives on one of the VMs. So I had nothing telling me to do minutes :)
[20:27:42] <stpeter> hehehe
[20:27:53] <m&m> sounds perfectly logical to me (-:
[20:28:16] <stpeter> and yes, m&m and I experienced the tail end of the heat when we were in Berlin
[20:28:24] <m&m> ugh
[20:28:43] <stpeter> we Americans are spoiled by the ubiquitous and excessive Air Conditioning™
[20:29:57] <m&m> in our defense, it approached 37C outside …
[20:30:51] <Tobias> just one day :)
[20:31:11] <m&m> it wasn't that much colder the rest of the week! *
[20:31:27] <m&m> * not including the deluges
[20:32:06] <Tobias> not much but a bit, one day was quite rainy though
[20:32:24] <m&m> it was interesting how walking through the InterContinental, there were definite climate zones
[20:32:36] <Tobias> heh
[20:32:47] <Tobias> saw a tornado or so?
[20:33:03] <m&m> a few steps one way, and it went from fairly warm to chilly
[20:33:05] <stpeter> fascinating and totally off-topic: http://twistedsifter.com/2013/08/maps-that-will-help-you-make-sense-of-the-world/
[20:36:57] <Tobias> i find 9 particular surprising
[20:40:18] <stpeter> I liked the literal translations of Chinese names for European countries :-)
[20:42:39] <Tobias> moral-land, hahaha
[20:43:35] <m&m> Braveland!
[20:49:35] <MattJ> That's us!
[20:50:10] <stpeter> cf. map #3 :P
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[20:54:55] <stpeter> heh, http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/08/12/the_1931_histomap_the_entire_history_of_the_world_distilled_into_a_single.html is cool too
[20:55:14] <stpeter> although it seems to end in 1931
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[20:59:35] *stpeter wonders who ever dreamed up the idea that PowerPoint was a good way to define technical architectures and protocols and such -- yikes!
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[21:15:03] <Kev> I'm not convinced that claiming the UK uses the metric system is entirely right.
[21:15:22] <stpeter> the UK is in transition, I suppose
[21:15:30] <MattJ> "transition" :)
[21:15:42] <Kev> It's not, though, in any meaningful sense, transitioning.
[21:15:45] <Kev> It's halfway and stuck.
[21:15:50] <stpeter> ah
[21:16:38] <MattJ> As a result, I'm hopeless at kilometres, but useless at yards
[21:16:53] <stpeter> many years ago one used to seek some road signs in kilometers in America, but not often any longer -- and that won't change until Satan buys a snow shovel
[21:16:55] <Kev> Driving distances/speeds are always imperial. Weight of a person is usual imperial. Cooking is a mix. Most things you buy are metric, but often in imperial round numbers. You buy a pint of beer (if your tastebuds are broken). Short distances could be either. Etc.
[21:17:15] <stpeter> s/seek/see/
[21:18:06] <stpeter> I'm looking forward to visiting England again for the IETF meeting next spring (although at the same time I'm working hard to finish up all my IETF work!)
[21:18:23] <MattJ> I'm looking forward to that too, I might finally make it
[21:18:38] <stpeter> I'll definitely plan an XMPP hackfest of some kind
[21:18:43] <MattJ> Excellent :)
[21:18:56] <stpeter> maybe I'll stay busy with IETF stuff through the Hawaii meeting ;-)
[21:19:05] <Tobias> stpeter, hehe
[21:20:49] <Tobias> stpeter, who around the IETF do we have to nag about updating jabber.ietf.org?
[21:21:05] <stpeter> updating the website or the xmpp server?
[21:21:10] <Tobias> xmpp
[21:21:18] <Tobias> they are running some ancient ejabberd
[21:21:28] <stpeter> I'll ping my friends at AMS about that
[21:21:52] <Tobias> thanks :)
[21:21:53] <stpeter> I offered to help them
[21:22:17] <Tobias> they don't have to switch to prosody...but they could at least update to the current ejabberd release
[21:22:26] <ralphm> stpeter: you have people living at the airport?
[21:22:36] <stpeter> switching to Prosody is the plan
[21:23:12] <ralphm> Kev: for what it is worth, even though the Netherlands is mostly metric, there are various things measured in non-round values
[21:23:44] <MattJ> stpeter, maybe poke when 0.9 is out
[21:24:11] <stpeter> MattJ: good plan -- I know they have some hardware migrations to finish first
[21:33:48] <stpeter> note to self: don't set passwords longer than 40 characters, they might be easy to remember but they're hard to type
[21:37:20] <Neustradamus> stpeter: About XSF servers, have you news about updates?
[21:37:30] <stpeter> hmm
[21:37:36] <stpeter> what kind of updates?
[21:37:48] <Neustradamus> Debian 7, M-Link...
[21:38:05] <stpeter> M-Link isn't an XSF matter
[21:38:11] <stpeter> but that's being worked on
[21:38:28] <stpeter> Jonathan Siegle has been working on Debian upgrades
[21:38:54] <Neustradamus> it is on it like ejabberd before... ;)
[21:39:01] <Neustradamus> ok !
[21:39:59] <ralphm> stpeter: I recently learned that three simple dictionary words, separated by spaces, should have enough bits of entropy to be reasonably secure
[21:40:11] <ralphm> Wonder if that's true
[21:40:13] <Kev> I think the usual pattern is four.
[21:40:20] <Kev> But I'll believe that three is sufficient.
[21:40:42] <Kev> Four certainly has more entropy than an 8character alphanumberspecial using the usual rules.
[21:40:48] <stpeter> ralphm: well, this password is for my PGP key, so I was being paranoid :-)
[21:40:56] <ralphm> right
[21:41:09] <Kev> But I think the maths is fairly easy.
[21:41:30] <Kev> Assume 100 valid chars in the usual passwords, so that's 100^8 combinations.
[21:41:35] <Kev> sigsegv:devel/swift/swift/> wc -l /usr/share/dict/words 8:59pm
235886 /usr/share/dict/words
[21:41:48] <Kev> Assume four words, so that's 235886^4 combinations.
[21:42:09] <Kev> >>> 100**8
10000000000000000
>>> 235886**4
3096054976816887360016L
[21:42:49] <ralphm> http://xkcd.com/936/
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[21:42:56] <Kev> Yes.
[21:43:11] <ralphm> for those visual learners
[21:46:02] <stpeter> heh, someone pinged just now about an XMPP implementation that doesn't really handle presence correctly for multiple resources -- but it seems that we're not clear about such things in RFC 6121, perhaps because we just assumed that clients would do the right thing about displaying presence correctly (or perhaps we need a XEP on this topic)
[21:46:37] <stpeter> things like "don't show the user as offline just because one of the user's resource sent unavailable"
[21:46:43] <ralphm> hah
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[21:47:06] <ralphm> I've heard many people refer to our priority stuff to bat shit crazy, too
[21:47:10] <Tobias> stpeter, hehe
[21:47:37] <Tobias> i think i stumbled upon that strange sentence while reading up probes stuff
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