Wednesday, August 28, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[13:04:06] <Tobias> meeting today?
[13:08:31] <Kev> Yes.
[13:09:26] <Tobias> k
[13:12:47] <Kev> Agenda is all of the stuck-at-proposed XEPs, plus your patch.
[13:13:03] <Tobias> ahh
[13:18:16] <Kev> I fear I'll have reviewed none of it and have to vote on list.
[13:18:27] <Kev> Especially the 301 changes. Has anyone other than me reviewed that properly?
[13:19:55] <Tobias> haven't yet..but can do so till next week
[13:20:09] <Tobias> if that's still worth anything
[13:22:45] <Kev> Got a fortnight to vote after today.
[13:23:05] <Tobias> ok..will do that then
[13:23:33] <MattJ> Likewise
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[15:02:41] <m&m> so are we on like Donkey Kong?
[15:03:17] <Tobias> in 9 minutes i think
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[15:03:31] <m&m> right
[15:03:54] <ralphm> m&m: quoting Ice Cube, huh?
[15:03:55] <MattJ> I pretend it's still 15:00
[15:03:55] <maineboy> howdy
[15:04:05] <ralphm> MattJ: me too
[15:04:06] <MattJ> Howdy maineboy
[15:04:10] *maineboy is really stpeter but this is a backup backup account ;-)
[15:04:14] <MattJ> Guessed :)
[15:04:15] <m&m> I am a child of the 80's
[15:04:26] <ralphm> :-D
[15:04:40] <Tobias> maineboy, still haven't fixed your prosody instance?
[15:04:46] <maineboy> Tobias: not yet
[15:05:11] <MattJ> Yes, very strange stuff going on there...
[15:05:21] <maineboy> Tobias: I need to make that a priority, but I have so many priorities...
[15:05:35] <maineboy> MattJ: I might need to reinstall the OS ;-)
[15:05:51] <Tobias> heh
[15:08:18] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:09:25] <maineboy> I suppose I could at least have joined the room using my @cisco.com account to be semi-official
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[15:09:54] <ralphm> maineboy: are you the real stpeter?
[15:10:10] <stpeter> ralphm: yes, just a different account
[15:10:11] <ralphm> stpeter: and how can we tell?
[15:10:20] <stpeter> right, that's the question
[15:10:52] <stpeter> I can update a page at https://stpeter.im for you or send a PGP-signed message to council@xmpp.org if you'd like :-)
[15:11:14] <ralphm> stpeter: what's the single must-visit attraction while in Brussels?
[15:12:01] <stpeter> of course, someone else could have gotten control over stpeter's machine, learned his 40+ character PGP password, and is now sending messages as him :-)
[15:12:16] <Kev> Blip.
[15:12:17] <stpeter> but I did send a PGP-signed message to council@ for you ;-)
[15:12:19] <stpeter> of course
[15:12:23] <ralphm> pfft
[15:12:26] <stpeter> how do we really know who people are?
[15:12:26] <ralphm> let's start
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[15:12:31] <m&m> time
[15:12:32] <ralphm> I'm here
[15:12:37] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[15:12:42] <stpeter> identity is hard :-)
[15:12:44] <Kev> ralphm: hoorah for pipelining? :)
[15:12:48] <m&m> actually present for once
[15:12:54] <MattJ> Here
[15:12:56] <Tobias> here
[15:12:59] <Kev> I'm here!
[15:13:17] <Kev> 2) Tobias did http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0082/diff/1.0/vs/1.1 ages ago. OK if we raise that one now?
[15:13:33] <Kev> Where 'now' means 'on list in the next fortnight', I imagine.
[15:13:49] <Kev> Actually, it's so short, we can just read it now.
[15:14:09] <MattJ> +1
[15:14:11] <Kev> +1
[15:14:12] <MattJ> I just read it
[15:14:14] <Tobias> +1
[15:14:24] <stpeter> ah, that's better, yes
[15:14:34] <ralphm> +1
[15:14:43] <m&m> nrm
[15:15:01] <ralphm> actually, many of my contacts appear to live in california, as all their mail comes in PDT
[15:15:21] <stpeter> PDT is the new GMT
[15:15:22] <m&m> this is better .. but I do wonder if "SHOULD covert" would be better than "are advised to convert"
[15:15:59] <m&m> but, this is a definite improvement, so I'm +1
[15:16:00] <ralphm> m&m: that would make it normative
[15:16:04] <m&m> right
[15:16:07] <ralphm> m&m: a bit too strong, I think
[15:16:25] <m&m> given it's a security concern, I don't think it's too strong
[15:16:26] <Kev> I don't think SHOULD is strictly needed, although I don't have terribly strong feelings on the matter.
[15:16:35] <MattJ> Hmm
[15:16:50] <Kev> Given a full house of +1, let's publish this, and it can be further wordsmithed in 1.2 :)
[15:16:57] <m&m> exactly
[15:16:59] <MattJ> A client might want to change to a random timezone for security purposes
[15:17:07] <m&m> heh
[15:17:08] <Kev> So, on the the XEPs-stuck-at-proposed:
[15:17:16] <ralphm> MattJ: Like +0:19
[15:17:23] <stpeter> heh
[15:17:27] <Kev> 3) XEP-0301: In-Band Real Time Text
Move to Draft?
[15:17:42] <MattJ> Why this one first? :P
[15:17:47] <Kev> I need to go through this and check the responses to all my comments from last time.
[15:17:48] <MattJ> I'll vote on-list
[15:17:56] <m&m> same as MattJ
[15:17:56] *Tobias will vote on list within a week
[15:18:01] <ralphm> AOL
[15:18:17] *m&m wants to use the IST timezone
[15:18:21] <Kev> I would recommend that anyone who hasn't yet done a full review of this version schedules it early in the cycle, because I've spent man-weeks on it at this point, it's not fast.
[15:18:31] <Kev> 4) XEP-0297: Stanza Forwarding
Draft?
[15:18:31] <m&m> right
[15:18:44] *stpeter likes the reverse-numerical order
[15:18:47] <m&m> I had an outstanding comment that was not addressed … but I cannot remember where that is now
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[15:18:51] <Kev> I have doubts about the authors for this one, but it seems ok despite that disadvantage.
[15:18:57] <MattJ> Story with 297... last call happened, feedback was received, and I incorporated it into a new version (0.5)
[15:19:12] <MattJ> Then Dave gave some more feedback on that version: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027623.html
[15:19:21] <Kev> MattJ: OK, so that's punting this and bringing 0.5 later, OK.
[15:19:22] <m&m> maybe that's my problem … I didn't read 0.5 yet (-:
[15:19:26] <Tobias> Kev, does it have implementations?
[15:19:33] <Kev> Tobias: anyone doing MAM.
[15:19:40] <Tobias> ah..ok
[15:19:43] <MattJ> I don't know whether it should still head to draft, or wait for me to address these concerns (which I haven't fully reviewed)
[15:20:05] <Kev> MattJ: At least 0.5 should be published first :)
[15:20:13] <Kev> So we can Deal With This Later.
[15:20:13] <MattJ> It is
[15:20:19] <Kev> Hmm.
[15:20:19] <ralphm> so the author doesn't think it is ready. Cool
[15:20:25] <Kev> I see 0.4 on xmpp.org
[15:20:34] <MattJ> It isn't!
[15:20:34] <stpeter> BTW, the issue of forwarding (and max-forwards / loop prevention) came up in the STOX WG at the IETF, since SIP has loop-prevention methods in place but XMPP doesn't
[15:20:58] <stpeter> hmm, yeah, was the XEP Editor remiss about http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html ?
[15:20:59] <MattJ> stpeter, you should have stayed anonymous :)
[15:21:00] <Kanchil> stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html:
XEP-0297: Stanza Forwarding
[15:21:19] <MattJ> stpeter, http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027620.html
[15:21:47] <Kev> Mooooving on :)
[15:21:48] <stpeter> MattJ: OK!
[15:21:57] <Kev> 5) XEP-0288: Bidirectional Server-to-Server Connections
[15:22:00] <Kev> Draft?
[15:22:01] <ralphm> Kev: so is it really Rejected now?
[15:22:07] <Kev> I need to -onlist.
[15:22:15] <Kev> ralphm: Presumably so :)
[15:22:21] <MattJ> I think I'm +1, but it's been a while so I'll say on list
[15:22:28] <m&m> I will vote on list for −0288
[15:22:34] <ralphm> Kev: I'd like that, we don't have many of those
[15:22:42] <Tobias> vote on list for that too
[15:22:43] <ralphm> I have to review all the s2s stuff still
[15:22:55] <Kev> I keep wanting to do a clean-room implementation of 220 and 288, but I keep failing to find time. Which is a shame.
[15:23:09] <Kev> 6) XEP-0220: Server Dialback
On list.
[15:23:12] <fippo> i still have a patch for 0288 to address the feedback from zash and need to pester my co-author about the other issue raised by michal vaner. but those don't touch the substance
[15:23:14] <Kev> Or rather.
[15:23:18] <Kev> 6) XEP-0220: Server Dialback
[15:23:19] <ralphm> Kev: same. I have a dial back implementation in Wokkel, but it sucks
[15:23:22] <Kev> I need to vote on-list.
[15:23:27] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
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[15:23:34] <m&m> Kev: same
[15:23:36] <MattJ> Is 220 still ready for draft?
[15:23:47] <MattJ> I still see lots of discussion going on
[15:23:49] <stpeter> IMHO 220 is ready for Final :P
[15:23:52] <MattJ> Heh
[15:24:09] <Kev> I did review 220 the other week, but I'll do it again.
[15:24:13] <stpeter> I still think it should've been Draft when we copied it over from a Proposed Standard RFC, but hey
[15:24:18] <Kev> stpeter: Well, I found an issue during last review :p
[15:24:20] <fippo> kev: your schema bug was fixed
[15:24:26] <Kev> fippo: Yep, ta :)
[15:24:33] <stpeter> Kev: there are issues with RFC 6120, too ;-)
[15:24:41] <Kev> Don't tell anyone.
[15:24:43] <MattJ> stpeter, when you put it that way, you're right.... what are we even discussing?
[15:25:00] <Kev> 7) XEP-0152: Reachability Addresses
[15:25:04] <Kev> I will also on-list this one.
[15:25:07] <stpeter> well, I'd like to make sure it's in good shape, but perfection is not necessary for Draft status
[15:25:10] <m&m> ditto
[15:25:17] <MattJ> Kev, incomplete last call I think? Only Lance replied
[15:25:32] <stpeter> and dialback has certainly been deployed for almost 13 years now ;-)
[15:25:36] <Kev> MattJ: Ah, still?
[15:25:40] <MattJ> afaict
[15:26:05] <MattJ> m&m, did I imagine that you were using this for something?
[15:26:38] <m&m> I was using reachability?
[15:26:40] <Kev> I thought we had a protoxep to vote on, but I can't find it. Maybe I'm thinking of dynamic forms. M&M: Did you send your objections on-list for that one?
[15:26:47] <MattJ> m&m, if not than I imagined it :)
[15:26:52] <m&m> I have not yet, but I am doing it now
[15:27:09] <Kev> OK, thanks.
[15:27:13] <stpeter> reachability addresses are relevant to any CUSAX client, but I haven't yet convinced developers of CUSAX clients at Cisco to add the feature
[15:27:15] <m&m> I can see uses for reachability, but I don't have anything concrete
[15:27:32] <m&m> and what maineboy said
[15:27:44] <Kev> I think that takes us to 9) Next meeting.
[15:27:57] <MattJ> +1
[15:27:58] <Kev> SBTSBC? We seem to just about cope with 20 minute meetings.
[15:28:01] <ralphm> stpeter: jbox
[15:28:01] <stpeter> see for instance http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ivov-xmpp-cusax-07#section-3.3
[15:28:02] <Kanchil> stpeter: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ivov-xmpp-cusax-07#section-3.3:
draft-ivov-xmpp-cusax-07 - CUSAX: Combined Use of the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP)
[15:28:27] <m&m> Kev: +1 on 9)
[15:28:34] <stpeter> ralphm: hehe, I was just talking about jbox the other day with temas ;-)
[15:28:37] <Kev> stpeter: I wonder if you could get any CUSAX people to express an opinion, then?
[15:28:39] <Tobias> Kev, wfm
[15:28:52] <Kev> and item 10) Any other business?
[15:28:59] <ralphm> stpeter: how many implementations are there?
[15:29:00] <stpeter> Kev: I've also poked the Jitsi folks about it, but will do so again
[15:29:01] <Kev> Other than kicking us all out and replacing us with newer, younger versions.
[15:29:09] <Peter Waher> I have one question
[15:29:13] <Kev> Although I think that's probably not really Council business as much as Alex's.
[15:29:14] <Kev> Peter Waher: shoot.
[15:29:30] <ralphm> Kev: us roolz
[15:29:37] <Peter Waher> I received a mail from UPnP members forum, stating a cooperation between UPnP+cloud and XMPP was underfoot
[15:29:43] <Peter Waher> any information you can share?
[15:29:46] <fippo> stpeter: i might implement it if your @cisco account announces it ;-)
[15:29:52] <Peter Waher> I would be interested to participate in any such work
[15:29:52] <Kev> Peter Waher: stpeter's your man, I think.
[15:29:59] <ralphm> Peter Waher: that's nice
[15:30:29] <fippo> kev: no, he's his (maine)boy
[15:30:33] <Peter Waher> it relates to the IoT-effort we're working on
[15:30:44] <Kev> fippo: Ho ho ho.
[15:31:59] <Kev> stpeter: Weren't you involved in this?
[15:32:07] <Peter Waher> any information you could share would be appreciated
[15:32:08] <stpeter> Peter Waher: as far as I know that is not public information yet, so I haven't said anything
[15:32:21] <Kev> OK.
[15:32:28] <Kev> I guess that means we're done, then?
[15:32:28] <stpeter> Peter Waher: is there something published on their website about it?
[15:32:44] <Peter Waher> for UPnP members
[15:32:48] <stpeter> http://upnp.org/news/press_releases/ hasn't been updated yet
[15:32:52] <Kanchil> stpeter: http://upnp.org/news/press_releases/:
UPnP Forum
[15:32:59] <stpeter> sure, but we're not UPnP members here
[15:33:10] <stpeter> as soon as they go public with it, I'd be happy to talk
[15:33:42] <Kev> Right, I'll take that as done for the meeting.
[15:33:44] <Kev> Thanks all!
[15:33:49] <MattJ> Thanks Kev :)
[15:33:51] *Kev bangeth the gavel
[15:33:52] <Tobias> thnaks Kev
[15:33:57] <Tobias> thanks Kev
[15:34:18] <Peter Waher> ok
[15:34:31] <Peter Waher> I'll be waiting for any comments on the dynamic forms also
[15:34:40] <Peter Waher> waiting to respond
[15:34:46] <Kev> Peter Waher: Thanks.
[15:35:10] <stpeter> Council calendar updated with meetings for September
[15:35:40] <stpeter> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html updated too
[15:35:41] <Kanchil> stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html:
XEP-0297: Stanza Forwarding
[15:36:07] <Kev> stpeter: Ta.
[15:36:41] *m&m awaits minutes, so he can add a smorgasbord of TODOs
[15:36:45] <m&m> (-:
[15:36:50] <Tobias> stpeter, do all initials in the change history need to be listed in the authors section?
[15:37:01] <m&m> /-:
[15:38:58] <stpeter> Tobias: are you asking as a general policy matter and do you have an example?
[15:39:58] <Tobias> stpeter, xep-0082 http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0082/diff/1.0/vs/1.1 i barely added what other people suggested ;)
[15:40:22] <stpeter> ah
[15:40:26] <stpeter> hmm yes
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[15:40:36] <Tobias> ok
[15:40:37] <stpeter> BTW I don't know why I'm listed as an author on XEP-0297 either ;-)
[15:41:10] <Tobias> same goes for quite a lot papers in the scientific community it seems :/
[15:41:16] <stpeter> Tobias: that's a good question — especially for XEPs that are in maintenance mode
[15:42:37] <stpeter> I've certainly fixed things in older XEPs and didn't add myself as a co-author, although usually I'm already an author on all that stuff ;-)
[15:43:15] <Tobias> right
[15:44:38] <stpeter> and sometimes we take over specifications from people who have disappeared, and the new maintainer is added as a co-author if they make some significant changes
[15:44:51] <stpeter> we might want to be clearer about our policies in such cases
[15:45:29] <stpeter> and also figure out how to do more "collective authorship" (e.g., Council members or XSF members or other help out with fixing bugs like the one in XEP-0082)
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[15:46:13] <maineboy> :P
[15:46:32] <Kev> maineboy: Are your other accounts still having issues on the server?
[15:46:36] <maineboy> although Adium (which I'm using here) always shows me as "Peter Saint-Andre"
[15:46:46] <maineboy> Kev: AFAICT yes
[15:47:04] <Kev> Curious. As we had an 'automatic restart' earlier.
[15:47:05] <maineboy> but that's off-topic for this chatroom
[15:48:12] <MattJ> maineboy, you provided the schema for 297 :)
[15:48:26] <maineboy> BTW, I'll note that draft-ietf-precis-framework is now in Working Group Last Call, which means that draft-ietf-xmpp-6122bis (the addressing / i18n stuff) will go to WGLC before too long, too
[15:48:52] <ralphm> maineboy: how did those tests against our stringpreps go?
[15:48:53] <maineboy> MattJ: ah, schemas are purely a mechanical exercise IMHO, just add me to the acknowledgements
[15:48:55] <Kev> maineboy: It is, but you're not my friend on that account :)
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[15:49:42] <maineboy> ralphm: I have some Python code to help me check codepoint handling, but I haven't applied them directly to the XMPP cases yet
[15:50:24] <ralphm> oh
[15:51:00] <maineboy> so I need to dig into the Python again and finish that up
[15:51:17] <maineboy> also need to do some planning for the XMPP Summit
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[15:54:42] <ralphm> ight
[15:54:44] <ralphm> right
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[15:58:54] <MattJ> ralphm, how's FOSDEM looking?
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[16:03:19] <maineboy> sigh, I have a lot of Internet-Drafts to finish up by the end of the year … http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/petersaint-andre.html
[16:03:24] <Kanchil> maineboy: http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/petersaint-andre.html:
Peter Saint-Andre Data (all documents)
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[16:04:09] <maineboy> PRECIS, STOX, 6122bis, 2141bis, 3406bis … yikes
[16:04:24] <maineboy> after that I think I'll take a break from publishing RFCs ;-)
[16:08:30] <fippo> don't forget the DNA drafts
[16:08:39] <maineboy> might not finish those this year
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[16:08:50] <ralphm> MattJ: I just sent out the e-mail. Thanks for the reminder
[16:09:03] <maineboy> Matt and I are working to update the POSH spec, but with the goal of making it easy to implement
[16:09:12] <maineboy> running code and all that
[16:09:46] <fippo> even right... reminds me that I need to fix a couple of bugs in mine (-:
[16:09:50] <maineboy> heh
[16:09:59] <ralphm> bah, code just breaks
[16:10:08] <maineboy> we plan to submit a new version of the POSH spec by the end of next week
[16:10:23] <maineboy> and DNA along with it
[16:10:58] <fippo> remember that there is still an issue in DNA over at github :-)
[16:11:06] <maineboy> ah, will check that
[16:12:52] <fippo> oh, pull request even
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