Wednesday, September 11, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:04:06] <stpeter> la la la
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[15:07:43] <m&m> ho ho ho
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[15:08:50] <stpeter> T-3 minutes?
[15:08:53] <Tobias> meeting today?
[15:08:54] <m&m> ayup
[15:09:01] <stpeter> I know Kev sent his regrets
[15:09:06] <m&m> there is one agenda item, I think
[15:09:11] <Tobias> the protoxep?
[15:09:17] <m&m> http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-sdp.html
[15:09:19] <Kanchil> m&m: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-sdp.html:
XEP-xxxx: Jingle SDP Content
[15:09:24] <Tobias> the one that said we have to find technical arguments to decline it :P
[15:09:46] <Dave Cridland> Yes, Fippo's even more unhappy about how it turned out than he thought.
[15:10:27] <stpeter> it = ?
[15:10:33] <Tobias> is "SDP has cooties" technical enough?
[15:10:37] <m&m> I only glanced at it, but it is a little smelly
[15:10:44] <stpeter> Tobias: :-)
[15:10:59] <m&m> SDP has enough cooties, this really multiplies them
[15:11:40] <m&m> it looks like the pairing of the worst parts of two things
[15:12:15] *m&m pings one of the MattJ's
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[15:12:37] <Tobias> i don't see ralph online
[15:12:48] <m&m> he's away
[15:12:50] <Tobias> ahh
[15:13:10] <m&m> well, tis time
[15:13:18] *m&m bangs gavel
[15:13:23] <m&m> 0) Roll Call
[15:13:35] <MattJ> Here
[15:13:40] <Tobias> present
[15:13:43] <m&m> presente
[15:13:46] <m&m> we at least have quorum
[15:14:01] <m&m> 1) <http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-sdp.html>; Accept as Experimental?
[15:14:37] <m&m> I'm disinclined to accept this if the author doesn't want it
[15:15:06] <stpeter> the author doesn't want it? I missed that
[15:15:15] <Tobias> that was the tone of his last message
[15:15:34] <m&m> From Philipp Hancke:
council: please reject this (with a technical argument, not just because it's ugly)


[15:15:38] <MattJ> We're supposed to reject it for technical reasons though :)
[15:16:01] <Dave Cridland> I think you should accept it.
[15:16:10] <MattJ> I was waiting for someone to say that
[15:16:11] <Dave Cridland> Think how annoyed he'd be.
[15:16:23] <m&m> then he can retract it
[15:16:26] <m&m> or not
[15:16:34] <stpeter> isn't the Jingle / RTC SIG supposed to be deciding what to do here?
[15:16:39] <Dave Cridland> Forgot this'd be in the logs, though. :-)
[15:16:43] <MattJ> I believed so
[15:16:52] <m&m> that was my understanding
[15:17:14] <MattJ> I'm not sure what the consensus is yet (author's opinion aside)
[15:17:16] <Dave Cridland> We've had virtually no list activity in a few weeks; I was hoping that people would have come back with the work they offered to do by now.
[15:17:29] <m&m> you have to prod
[15:17:48] <Dave Cridland> Yes, I know. But a combination of summer and IETF has meant I haven't.
[15:17:53] <stpeter> everyone is rivited by ongoing security scandals and has no energy for trivialities like RTC :P
[15:18:02] <MattJ> :D
[15:18:04] <m&m> best with something electrified
[15:18:25] <Dave Cridland> This submission is going to be my key to reinvigorating things, I hope.
[15:18:41] <m&m> then "no objections" from me
[15:18:52] <m&m> I don't have a good technical argument against it at this time
[15:19:13] <m&m> Tobias? MattJ?
[15:19:44] <MattJ> I...
[15:19:55] <stpeter> if we're going to publish Jingle-SDP, then IMHO we also need to publish SoX -- I'm not fond of either, but they're just about equally hideous
[15:19:55] <MattJ> don't object
[15:20:05] <Dave Cridland> I think the principle problem with the proposal is that the only thing it really adds is SDP syntax - it gains nothing in terms of interop.
[15:20:08] <m&m> stpeter: agreed
[15:20:16] <MattJ> Can we change the text for "experimental" back again? :)
[15:20:33] <Dave Cridland> SoX clearly does have some merit - in as much as it can be used to tunnel SIP though an XMPP network.
[15:21:48] <m&m> well, I've no problems publishing both
[15:21:49] <Tobias> m&m, if it doesn't provide any value why accept it? like dave says...it adds nothing in terms of interop
[15:22:03] <MattJ> Interop with whom?
[15:22:26] <stpeter> I didn't say Jingle-SDP has no merit, I just say it's ugly :-)
[15:22:59] <MattJ> Dave Cridland, will it help or hinder the Jingle SIG to have this accepted?
[15:23:04] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Anyone. You can't use jingle-sdp except to talk to other jingle-sdp speakers, of course, but in order to use it you need to parse and understand SDP; you can't just blindly take an SDP (or SIP) blob and throw it across the network.
[15:23:24] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, I don't think it'll make any difference.
[15:23:58] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, The only complication would be if people treated it as anything more than a discussion point.
[15:23:58] <MattJ> So it won't make any difference, and we're not convinced it's a good approach to the problem, there are no existing implementations (right?)...
[15:24:17] <MattJ> and there is a risk of someone implementing it while experimental
[15:24:32] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, Right.
[15:24:33] <m&m> Dave Cridland: as the not-a-chair for the Jingle-SDP, is your opinion to publish or not?
[15:24:41] <MattJ> Especially since we just changed our text to encourage them to :)
[15:25:01] <MattJ> In which case I think I'd rather not publish
[15:25:43] <Dave Cridland> m&m, If we had a true equivalent of a published draft, I'd stick with that. As it is, having it in the protoxep record is sufficient for the SIG's need, and a real XEP may confuse the issue.
[15:26:37] <m&m> so, on the advice of the SIG, we can reject this proposal at this time
[15:26:54] <Tobias> +1 on that
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[15:27:23] <m&m> ok. I suppose Kev and Ralph have a fortnight to respond, but that might be moot
[15:27:48] <m&m> who wants to send the notice of non-acceptance to the list?
[15:28:21] <MattJ> I can
[15:28:34] <m&m> gracias
[15:28:41] <m&m> 2) Next Meeting
[15:29:18] <stpeter> SBTSBC?
[15:29:21] <Tobias> +1
[15:29:39] <m&m> SBTSBC is assumed, unless anyone has apologies to note now
[15:29:51] <MattJ> None
[15:30:00] <m&m> 3) Any Other Business
[15:30:25] <Tobias> none here
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[15:30:46] <MattJ> Uh-oh
[15:31:06] <MattJ> :)
[15:31:11] <m&m> going once
[15:31:28] <m&m> going twice
[15:31:36] <stpeter> oh
[15:31:39] <Dave Cridland> I'd note as a general item we need to hunt candidates for council and board.
[15:31:43] <stpeter> any input on LC items?
[15:32:00] <m&m> I'm working through −301
[15:32:02] <stpeter> Dave Cridland: agreed
[15:32:06] <m&m> I have a lot of nits
[15:32:07] <Tobias> stpeter, i'll look at the none RTT ones the next days
[15:32:14] <m&m> Dave Cridland: noted!
[15:32:20] <stpeter> recruiting for the Board is always a challenge
[15:32:39] <m&m> maybe if you offered actual cookies
[15:33:23] <Dave Cridland> Oh, and Summit...
[15:33:33] <stpeter> oh yes
[15:33:36] <m&m> status?
[15:33:41] <Dave Cridland> Apparently there'll be four people there.
[15:33:50] <Dave Cridland> I'm wondering whether to make it 5.
[15:34:02] <Dave Cridland> But that may mean finding a bigger table.
[15:34:11] <stpeter> Inky does XMPP? or you just want to visit Portland again? ;-)
[15:34:21] <Dave Cridland> Mostly just like Portland.
[15:34:29] <Dave Cridland> That is, Portland³.
[15:35:26] <stpeter> but yes some marketing is needed
[15:35:41] <stpeter> I'll do some more pokage by end of week
[15:36:21] <m&m> I doubt I'd be able to make it
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[15:36:47] <m&m> anything else
[15:36:52] *m&m notes we're 5 minutes over
[15:37:20] <stpeter> nothing else here
[15:37:36] <fippo> thanks for not accepting jingle-sdp ;-)
[15:37:37] *m&m bangs gavel
[15:37:44] <stpeter> heh
[15:37:45] <m&m> fippo: it was close, though
[15:37:58] <m&m> we almost accepted because of your insistence we not
[15:38:34] <m&m> stpeter: will you be in the office later today?
[15:38:38] <fippo> mh... I need to make a note on trying reverse psychology against the current council
[15:38:59] <stpeter> fippo: :)
[15:39:14] <m&m> of course, now that you've noted that, we'll note it ourselves
[15:39:14] <stpeter> m&m: I'm in the office now, but not later :P
[15:39:26] <m&m> stpeter: hrm
[15:39:41] <stpeter> reminds me of the old Mad magazine stuff about spy vs. anti-spy vs. anti-anti-spy...
[15:39:46] <m&m> heh
[15:39:47] <stpeter> m&m: we can chat IRL :P
[15:40:30] <m&m> stpeter: but I like using non-obvious channels! Gives the the various TLAs more places to look!
[15:40:48] <Dave Cridland> m&m, There are four-letter acronyms at play in this space too.
[15:41:00] <stpeter> OK, I'll text you about the smoke signals I would send except it's so rainy today
[15:41:27] <m&m> and I'll start a hangout about the drumbeats in response to your text on the smoke signals
[15:41:41] *stpeter laughs
[15:41:54] <stpeter> brb
[15:41:56] <m&m> then we can tweet it and maybe even like it
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[15:42:27] <Dave Cridland> "I'll post on Facebook and you'll like it." - always sounds like a parent telling off, to me.
[15:46:48] <MattJ> Oh! Forgot AOB - I'm owing a vote on 301
[15:47:02] <MattJ> I'll post to the ist
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[16:20:26] <m&m> all of the votes were pushed off by 1 week
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[16:53:43] <stpeter> BTW, Ralph sent regrets to me on an IM account I hadn't logged into before the Council meeting
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[17:25:48] <Tobias> so..what do you guys think about a xep for pinning certs? http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perrin-tls-tack-02 isn't going to be adapted soon by TLS implementations and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-key-pinning-08 is http specific
[17:25:50] <Kanchil> Tobias: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perrin-tls-tack-02:
draft-perrin-tls-tack-02 - Trust Assertions for Certificate Keys
[17:27:52] <Lance> Tobias: would this be for s2s or c2s?
[17:28:15] <Tobias> why not both
[17:28:20] <Tobias> :)
[17:28:40] <Lance> sure :) i just dont always have access to the needed info for c2s implementations
[17:29:09] *Lance glares at python's incomplete stdlib openssl bindings
[17:29:12] <Tobias> PyTLS (or what's it called) allows access to cert fingerprints
[17:29:15] <Tobias> not?
[17:29:24] <Tobias> or i've been looking at the wrong lib some days ago
[17:29:35] <Lance> oh, ok. i can do fingerprints in python
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[17:30:04] *Lance now glares at browsers for not exposing cert information to JS
[17:30:24] <Lance> so, yeah. +1 go for it
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[18:10:08] <stpeter> heh
[18:10:15] <stpeter> Tobias: yes, does sound interesting
[18:10:32] <stpeter> I need to log off now, will think about it and provide feedback on whatever you propose
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[18:14:13] <Tobias> okay..i'll write something up tomorrow
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[18:22:53] <ralphm> stpeter: oh. it showed online for me
[18:22:59] <ralphm> sorry for not making it
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[19:47:26] <Dave Cridland> FWIW, I think cert pinning is daft.
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[20:27:02] <MattJ> Why?
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[21:06:04] <MattJ> Dave Cridland, why?
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[21:10:11] <m&m> Dave Cridland has left the library. Dave Cridland has been saved.
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