Wednesday, October 09, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[11:42:08] <Tobias> anything on the agenda for today?
[11:42:44] <Kev> No new things. And I think I'm the only person with outstanding votes. I'll try to get the minutes for last week out first, but might fail.
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[11:58:43] <MattJ> Am I allowed to submit a XEP a couple of hours before the meeting? :)
[12:00:24] <Tobias> as long as you don't expect any of us to read it by then
[12:00:42] <MattJ> What if it's short?
[12:01:23] <Kev> The same stands :)
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[15:03:11] <m&m> T - 10 minutes
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[15:04:31] <stpeter> greetings
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[15:04:43] <ralphm> MattJ: sure you can :-D
[15:06:43] <ralphm> stpeter: hi
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[15:08:23] <Tobias> howdy
[15:10:38] <Kev> Howdy.
[15:11:36] <Kev> Every so often I realise that I really do like the diff tool :)
[15:11:49] <stpeter> I'm sorry if I've gotten people started on saying "howdy" - I think it's a Western America thing
[15:12:01] <stpeter> Kev: a big +1 to that
[15:12:06] <stpeter> many thanks to Tobias
[15:12:13] <Tobias> i've heard people prefer rfcdiff like diffs
[15:12:20] <Kev> That was the implication, I just can't quite come out to say it :D
[15:12:40] <Kev> Tobias: With which I'm not familiar. But these work for me.
[15:12:51] <Kev> (these = extensions/diff/)
[15:12:56] <Kev> Righty, 'tis time.
[15:12:56] <ralphm> stpeter: no problem, I know how y'all be doing them things
[15:13:00] <Tobias> it's basically two column full text with changes highlighted
[15:13:08] <Kev> 1) Roll call.
[15:13:11] <stpeter> ralphm: hey, y'all is a Southern America thing
[15:13:18] <stpeter> I used to say that when I lived in Atlanta :P
[15:13:21] <ralphm> stpeter: I'm just mixing the whole lot
[15:13:31] *ralphm is here
[15:13:41] <Kev> I'm here too :)
[15:13:45] <stpeter> my favorite construction is "y'all'll"
[15:13:45] <Tobias> so am i
[15:13:57] <stpeter> but anyway
[15:14:05] <ralphm> stpeter: what about cyall?
[15:14:42] <Tobias> MattJ, ping
[15:15:08] <Kev> m&m: ping
[15:15:15] <MattJ> Pong
[15:15:17] <MattJ> Presence
[15:15:19] <MattJ> t
[15:15:36] <Kev> Looks a bit like trying to verb presence.
[15:15:50] <Kev> Yeah, I'm, like, totally presenced.
[15:16:11] <stpeter> :)
[15:16:13] <m&m> pong
[15:16:17] <m&m> sorry, got caught in something
[15:16:21] <Kev> Excellent. We're all here to not discuss anything.
[15:16:35] <Kev> I have nothing on the agenda (although a 301 vote I need to place).
[15:16:38] <ralphm> Kev: except for the MattJ proposal
[15:16:48] <Tobias> haven't seen it on the list
[15:16:49] <Kev> ralphm: The one he didn't send? :)
[15:16:50] <ralphm> I'd like to accept that as experimentall
[15:16:53] <m&m> I see no proposal
[15:17:00] <m&m> therefore it doesn't exist (-:
[15:17:03] <ralphm> hmm
[15:17:09] <ralphm> MattJ: what's up with that?
[15:17:11] <stpeter> I received it but didn't have time to process it
[15:17:16] <stpeter> so it's not in the inbox
[15:17:16] <MattJ> It was only submitted to the editor a matter of hours ago
[15:17:22] <ralphm> :-(
[15:17:23] <MattJ> It's http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html
[15:17:24] <Kanchil> MattJ: http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html:
XEP-xxxx: JSON container
[15:17:26] <stpeter> yeah this stuff like commuting got in the way
[15:17:30] <Kev> Next week. Or the week after, or whatever.
[15:17:37] <Tobias> MattJ, you could have back dated it a couple weeks ^^
[15:17:44] <MattJ> Y'all have to commit to accepting it now, though ;)
[15:17:59] <ralphm> Kev: you can read it in 30 seconds
[15:18:04] <ralphm> really
[15:18:46] <Kev> ralphm: I don't think any harm is going to come of doing it next week :)
[15:18:52] <Kev> 2) Date of next meeting.
[15:19:00] <ralphm> Kev: or from doing it this week
[15:19:29] <ralphm> I won't be available next week
[15:19:33] <ralphm> I'll be on a plane
[15:19:35] <Kev> Me neither.
[15:19:48] <Kev> (Although not on a plane)
[15:19:54] <Kev> Week after that is summitish?
[15:20:13] <m&m> yes
[15:20:24] <ralphm> Week after I'm on a plane again, I believe
[15:20:33] <Kev> And we can't schedule for the 30th anyway, because we won't be Council then.
[15:20:41] <Kev> (Vote is on the 29th according to the calendar)
[15:20:42] <ralphm> Kev: hence my proposal
[15:20:44] <stpeter> MattJ: published to the inbox
[15:20:51] <Kev> OK, I'll read it now.
[15:20:51] <MattJ> Thanks!
[15:21:20] <stpeter> http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json-containers.html
[15:21:21] <Kanchil> stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json-containers.html:
XEP-xxxx: JSON Containers
[15:21:25] <m&m> MattJ: your JSON specification reference is incorrect (-:
[15:21:35] <MattJ> Oh?
[15:21:54] <MattJ> Oh.
[15:22:07] <m&m> depending on which standards body you talk to, its either RFC 4627 or ECMA-404
[15:22:16] <MattJ> Yeah, I can fix it to point to the RFC
[15:22:22] <ralphm> Not objecting to publish as a XEP.
[15:22:25] <m&m> 4627bis is in progress
[15:22:29] <stpeter> heh
[15:22:39] <Tobias> or define a new standard...not only Base64 can have tons of standards
[15:22:44] <m&m> no objections to publishing, but not terribly excited about it either
[15:23:07] <m&m> MattJ: Oh, and specication
[15:23:11] <Kev> So, I don't really understand half of this.
[15:23:33] <ralphm> m&m: I've been promoting this idea before, wasn't aware that MattJ had written this spec (or I forgot) and Justin Karneges has just published an article about doing the same.
[15:23:35] <stpeter> I could definitely see people using JSON containers
[15:23:41] <Kev> Shoving it in other protocol namespaces: Understood. Shoving it directly into messages: not understood.
[15:23:50] <ralphm> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6520524
[15:23:54] <MattJ> People *already* shove JSON into <body/>
[15:24:05] <Kev> MattJ: Not in standards, though.
[15:24:10] <ralphm> *that* is horrible
[15:24:10] <MattJ> I have had to deal with such "APIs" in the past
[15:24:15] <stpeter> heh
[15:24:16] <stpeter> yeah
[15:24:21] <m&m> I agree with Kev
[15:24:22] <stpeter> let's at least make it clean
[15:24:24] <Kev> If we're telling people how do Do This Right, why not say "And always namespace it according to use"?
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[15:24:50] <MattJ> SHOULD?
[15:25:02] <m&m> why not MUST?
[15:25:02] <stpeter> nod, the pure message stuff seems strange, IMHO it usually needs some context
[15:25:07] <ralphm> Kev: my motivation to accept this is along the same lines as the other payload format XEPs (User Mood, etc)
[15:25:25] <MattJ> m&m, the context may be provided elsewhere
[15:25:29] <ralphm> I'm not to keen on direct embedding in messages like this
[15:25:38] <ralphm> More interested in the pubsub use
[15:25:40] <MattJ> Ok, happy to amend it then
[15:25:52] <m&m> MattJ: I don't think it will kill them to re-iterate the context
[15:26:15] <Kev> I'm happy to accept 0.0.2 as experimental, which says to use contexts.
[15:26:18] <m&m> this isn't alg:none bad, but I'm not keen on it
[15:26:19] <ralphm> that said, I know some developers have embedded Atom entries in messages as well
[15:26:22] <MattJ> If people continue to use JSON in <body/>, I'll mark the date this was decided :)
[15:26:24] <ralphm> arguably without context
[15:26:46] <Kev> MattJ: If people continue to use <body/>, then demanding context isn't going to be what stops them.
[15:26:47] <m&m> MattJ: people put all sorts of things into <body/> — that doesn't make them correct
[15:26:52] <ralphm> and I have gotten suggested if we could do something where you'd have the pubsub notification meta data *next to* the payload
[15:27:17] <Kev> The spec already says 'shove it in the json namespace'. I don't see "shove the json namespace somewhere relevant" as any harder.
[15:27:45] <stpeter> hmm
[15:27:47] <MattJ> It's also more about defining the json element, than dictating what you do with it
[15:27:49] <ralphm> Kev: I suppose you can supply context with a sibling element
[15:27:55] <ralphm> it doesn't have to be wrapping it
[15:28:07] <Kev> ralphm: Using siblings for context is pretty ugly, though.
[15:28:10] <MattJ> I don't see why we need rules about where it MUST NOT be embedded
[15:28:26] <stpeter> well, I could see that people would know the context from the application they've developed (closed network kind of thing), and entities just pass around json blobs to their heart's content
[15:28:30] <Kev> I have a preference for MUST put it in a context, I'll settle for SHOULD and form a concrete opinion before Draft.
[15:28:38] <Kev> Or new Council can, rather.
[15:28:41] *stpeter nods to Kev
[15:28:48] <m&m> wfm
[15:28:50] <MattJ> I'm ok for compromising to SHOULD
[15:28:58] <stpeter> rough consensus! ;-)
[15:29:00] <MattJ> :)
[15:29:00] <ralphm> yay
[15:29:07] <Kev> OK.
[15:29:09] <ralphm> and we have another XEP
[15:29:11] <ralphm> :-D
[15:29:20] <MattJ> I'll update it ASAP
[15:29:38] <Kev> ralphm: I don't think we have a Tobias opinion yet.
[15:29:40] <Kev> At least, I can't find it.
[15:29:41] <m&m> MattJ: don't forget to change the namespace to end with ":0" instead of ":tmp"
[15:29:59] <Zash> ... Mam
[15:30:00] <Tobias> Kev, i'm fine with SHOULD for now too
[15:30:04] <m&m> Kev: we're still pending MattJ's update, though
[15:30:16] <Kev> m&m: I'm happy to pre-approve this one.
[15:30:21] <Kev> But I'm not pushing anyone else to do so.
[15:30:36] <ralphm> m&m: I strongly believe in publish, then discuss details
[15:30:38] <m&m> I've already stated non-objection
[15:30:39] <Kev> I think this is our last meeting, so I think we're punting for next Council if we don't decide today.
[15:30:47] <Kev> (Not that this is a problem)
[15:30:49] <ralphm> m&m: right
[15:31:06] <Kev> Ok, so everyone is non-objecting the pending 0.0.2?
[15:31:12] <m&m> as long as something doesn't smell like duplication (without justification) or have very obvious flaws, I don't object
[15:31:22] <MattJ> Yay
[15:31:27] <ralphm> Kev: I think I've seen no objections from everyone(!)
[15:31:29] <Kev> OK.
[15:31:33] <Kev> 3) Date of next.
[15:31:39] <Kev> I think we're saying that this was our last meeting.
[15:31:41] <m&m> it sounds like "none"
[15:31:46] <m&m> /agreed
[15:31:49] <Tobias> wfm
[15:31:55] <Kev> In which case
[15:31:57] <Kev> 4) Ta.
[15:31:59] <MattJ> ok, me too
[15:32:00] <ralphm> Thanks all!
[15:32:04] <Kev> I'd like to thank everyone for their work this year.
[15:32:07] <MattJ> ++
[15:32:07] <Tobias> thank you
[15:32:09] <ralphm> You've been a pleasure to work with.
[15:32:13] <Kev> 5) Any other business
[15:32:13] <Tobias> Kev, thanks for chairing
[15:32:16] <m&m> gracias
[15:32:18] <ralphm> +1
[15:32:26] <Zash> Thanks yall
[15:32:36] <m&m> I've decided not to run again
[15:32:52] <Kev> m&m: You can always come back later, you've done it before :)
[15:33:03] <ralphm> :-D
[15:33:03] <m&m> I've struggled to keep up as it is (-:
[15:33:08] <Tobias> and for those reappliers, there are a couple days left to put yourself on the wiki page
[15:33:11] <m&m> but I also think it would be best for there to be new blood
[15:33:24] <MattJ> After swinging to and fro for a while, I finally decided to run again
[15:34:27] <Kev> I think we're guaranteed at least some new blood next year then, and yes, I agree this is healthy.
[15:34:34] *stpeter checks http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013
[15:34:35] <Kanchil> stpeter: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013:
Board and Council Elections 2013 - XMPP Wiki
[15:34:37] <Kev> But despite that, I decided to run again :)
[15:34:47] <Kev> Anyway.
[15:34:50] <stpeter> heh
[15:34:52] <Kev> I think we're out of other businesses?
[15:34:59] <Kev> In which case...
[15:35:00] <m&m> I could always vote "no" for you (-:
[15:35:03] <m&m> none from me
[15:35:12] <Kev> m&m: So can everyone else :)
[15:35:17] <Kev> ...Thanks y'all.
[15:35:19] <stpeter> all hail the 12th council :-)
[15:35:21] *Kev bangs the final gavel.
[15:35:21] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[15:35:36] <m&m> thanks very much everyone
[15:35:38] <stpeter> indeed, thanks Kev!
[15:35:51] <stpeter> I have a sense that m&m might be back someday :-)
[15:35:58] <m&m> heh
[15:35:59] <m&m> possibly
[15:36:01] <stpeter> heck, even I might run for the Council again sometime
[15:36:10] <m&m> I always find myself drawn to legacy JSON
[15:36:11] <m&m> (-:
[15:36:18] <stpeter> heehee
[15:37:05] *m&m goes back to I-Ds and cross-SDO shinanigans
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[16:19:07] <Kev> stpeter: And I'm +1 on 301.
[16:20:35] <stpeter> ok!
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[20:38:04] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[20:38:31] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:41:21] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[20:43:17] *** m&m shows as "online"
[20:48:43] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[20:50:43] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[20:51:31] *** Tobias has left the room
[20:52:41] *** m&m shows as "online"
[20:53:07] *** Tobias has joined the room
[20:53:10] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[20:53:35] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "playing games"
[21:02:45] *** m&m has left the room
[21:03:26] *** m&m has joined the room
[21:18:26] *** Kev shows as "away"
[21:20:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[21:21:50] *** m&m shows as "dnd" and his status message is "In a meeting!"
[21:30:31] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of being idle"
[21:30:55] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:37:13] *** m&m has left the room
[21:55:24] *** m&m has joined the room
[22:00:16] *** m&m shows as "online"
[22:04:52] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[22:06:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[22:07:14] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[22:16:23] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "Not available as a result of being idle"
[22:22:53] *** stpeter has left the room
[22:23:14] *** m&m shows as "away" and his status message is "stuffage"
[22:25:55] *** m&m shows as "online"
[22:28:40] *** stpeter has joined the room
[22:30:29] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[22:30:37] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[22:31:17] *** stpeter has left the room
[22:39:50] *** Tobias has left the room
[22:44:59] *** Tobias has joined the room
[22:45:01] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:45:54] *** m&m has left the room
[23:07:24] *** ralphm has left the room
[23:16:18] *** Tobias shows as "away" and his status message is "Available"
[23:53:44] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"