XMPP Council - 2013-11-06

And five minutes to spare. Excellent.

hi!

Howdy.

'Tis time, tis time.

1) Roll call.

yepper!

here

I am here.

here

here

here

Here

Fabulous.

2) Welcome

Hi all, welcome to class of 2013. Or 2014. Or something.

3) New Chair.

the lucky 13th council :-)

We should choose a chair. I'm happy to do it again, or does anyone else fancy it?

stpeter, uh-oh :)

heh

Kev, what does it involve, other than running the meeting and posting minutes?

triskaidekaphobics beware!

Tobias: running the meeting and posting minutes

That, keeping track of what needs to go on the agenda, pretty much.

Kev, you were getting rather busy towards the end of the term - sure you can manage it? If yes, I'm happy with you as chair

Trying to keep to time, etc.

MattJ: Yeah. I need to get less busy than I was for my sanity as much as anything else. But I think things are better now.

ah..ok

And will be better soon once I get a Swift hire :D

I'm happy with Kev as chair if he's up to it

'+1 for ke as chair

Kev: indeed

i'm happy with Kev, if he has the time for it

Fab, ta.

4) 156. Peter wanted to talk about this.

and Kevin Smith survives the no-confidence vote! ;-)

oh yes

156

so

that was the alternative connection one, right?

the XMPP Over Websocket references 156

yes

XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0156.html

Lance and I have provisionally updated it to also have a web method

Kev: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0156.html: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

instead of the DNS TXT method (ick)

http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html

stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Primarily because in a browser, we can't do DNS lookups

http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http

stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

heh

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

kick the bot!

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

I don't have rights to kick.

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

BRB.

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Kanchil: http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0156-1.1.html#http::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: XEP-0156: Discovering Alternative XMPP Connection Methods

Destroyed the process.

yay

whew

ok

(as a side remark, it would be pretty helpful if people would include titles along with XEP numeric references in e-mail (subjects))

as I was saying

our long nightmare is over

so

ralphm: +1

revenge of the colon

ralphm: or the shortname at least

So, I'm not able to demote, which seems like it might be a Prosody bug and we should upgrade. And I should fix Kanchil.

Ben Campbell (XMPP WG chair) mentioned that the 156 reference only talks about DNS TXT now

which we'll fix

right

the question is how to handle the WebSocket-related registrations

I'm inclined to leave 156 as it will be, but register the WebSocket entries from the RFC instead of putting them directly into 156

because all 156 1.1 does is say "here's a format for the URIs"

So leave 156 with the 1.1 .well-known stuff.

in fact, I think the XMPP Over WebSocket RFC can register its desired .well-known URI directly with IANA, now that I think about it

yes

stpeter: And by 'registrations' you mean the protocol registrations, not user registration.

stpeter: so the XMPP Registrar doesn't need to be involved

I mean urn:xmpp:alt-connections:websocket

sorry, I mis-spoke

Right. And that just goes into the links in 156, right?

yes

as 156 1.1 says: Because the link relations specified here are extension relation types rather than registered relation types (see Section 4 of RFC 5988), this document requires no interaction with the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) [9].

So I think this is orthogonal to 156.

Ah, well, that's slightly inconvenient, but not a problem, I think. Websockets-xmpp can just give the right URI.

so I think the X.O.W. RFC can register urn:xmpp:alt-connections:websocket with the XMPP Registrar, which is novel at least

well, we can just add a back reference in the registry

given some of the discussion in past XMPP WG sessions (notably the lack of SRV in a number of registrars), would it be worth adding the equivalents for the existing SRV-based one?

that seems fine to me

stpeter: Or we just allow free use of URIs in 156.

yay for distributed standardization

or of course the IETF could define its own URIs

Kev: "free use"?

Not say these are special extension relation types, and allow more than urn:xmpp:alt-connections:httppoll urn:xmpp:alt-connections:websocket urn:xmpp:alt-connections:xbosh

ah

sure

But I'm fine with XOW registering too, I think it's a non-issue.

agreed

moving on, then?

which is already the case. 156 is using the host-meta file, which would potentially include other services

And we don't have so many of these that we seem to have scalability problems.

Kev: right

I'm sure our Registrar doesn't mind adding one or two things later

Lance and I can communicate this to the XMPP WG on Friday

Fab, ta.

Moving along, then.

5) http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ Can people send their new bios along to someone with write access to that page, please?

I have a bad feeling that I have write access, and so that could be me.

I'm looking for an ack :)

will do

ack.

Good enough.

if your don't write your own, I write 'em for you

beware

heh

6) 300 (hashes) Fippo?

I just noticed that I actually served 9 terms.

ralphm: longest running!

right... i would like to get 0300 to draft

fippo: +1

As-is, or do we need changes?

it seems well written and it would solve a problem i in 0320

I haven't looked at it in a while

as-is. there has been little (or rather no) feedback on standards@

OK. Shall we shove LC onto the agenda for next meeting, then?

but matt miller has something in the works which will use it, too

I agree with fippo

stpeter: You happy with reinstating it without changes, or do we need to make a dummy change to move back to Experimental?

as I recall, it didn't solve the problem for all XMPP extensions, but it would be useful for new ones

I seem to recall some issue with 300, I'll double check and post if that's true

Lance: OK, ta.

thanks

I shall review it again as well

Right.I think that was it for this meeting.

7) Date of next.

during the Pervasive Surveillance discussion this morning at the IETF meeting

at one point I wanted some way of having a convention for within data forms, but that's not very important to me anymore

which should be quite entertaining :-)

Next week is one of my 'not good for me' weeks.

live streaming will be available :-)

I'll be on a plane next week

Would anyone like a meeting without me, or skip a week?

I'm proposing 16:10Z 20th November.

WFM

WFM -- no urgent issues

wfm

MattJ/Tobias?

wfm

Dangerously close to time here :)

OK, let's assume MattJ is OK too.

8) AOB?

AOB ... Lance was good enough to gather all the BOSH changes into a single patch, so I will apply that for review by the Council (124 + 206)

I saw that note, I just didn't think it needed discussion until the patch was out :)

yep

Anything else?

nothing here, I think

Good enough!

A minute over, don't want to make a habit of this :)

Thanks all.

:-D

hehe

thank you

good first meeting

I blame it on Kanchil

ralph and me are Waldorf and Statler

ralphm: it looked like a silo...

Sorry folks, power (and my router) went off

m&m: They aren’t half bad.

they aren't half good either!

Everyone loves those guys.

HAR HAR HAR HAR

stpeter: arguably base64 is better than something like 02:1A:CC:54:27:AB:EB:9C:53:3F:3E:4B:65:2E:7D:46:3F:54:42:CD:54:F1:7A:03:A2:7D:F9:B0:7F:46:19:B2

ah, found the issue, and looks like it was resolved. it was use of urn:xmpp:hash-function-textual-names vs urn:xmpp:hash-function-text-names

but what form of base64 ^^

previous version was using both, but latest uses the '-text-' version only

i think it needs a sentence which describes that this is the base64 of the raw output something (i need to look it up) of the hash

XEP-0115 has some text for that

right, in 5.1 bullet 9. perfect

I wonder if "These recommendations ought to be reviewed yearly by the XMPP Council" is a bit optimistic

looks nice and vague to me :-D

it is possible that URNs like "urn:iana:hash-function-text-names:md5" (not urn:xmpp) might be minted at some point

I don't know. Council seem able to turn up to their meetings, which is beating 60% of the new Board :)

I was working with IANA on that for a while

heh

oh is there a Board meeting now? yikes

stpeter: well, not yet, I suppose :-(

hmm

BTW the IETF plenary is live streamed at http://www.ietf.org/live/ if you're interested (the fun technical content hasn't started yet)

when does it start?

the plenary has started, but preliminaries are happening right now

I can tell you when Bruce's talk starts

I have the youtube channel up but it says "Please Stand By"

the text stream is going strong tho

http://ietf88streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf889.m3u is the audio

is the video steam working for any one?

yes but i had to refresh many times

fippo says "http://vancouver.conf.meetecho.com/WebLite/event.jsp?w=plenary might provide an alternative if youtube doesn't work"

that works

tobias: your'e living in a developing country too, eh?

fippo, apparently

for me it just showed "This video is not available.", "Sorry about that" also known as ..."We're sooooo sorryyyy"

fippo, did they geolock the youtube stream? ^^

the audio stream might be good enough

stpeter, the meetecho link worked :)

great

the meetecho guys are cool

plus they like xmpp ;-)

Is GEMA blocking even the IETF now?