Wednesday, December 18, 2013
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:07:04] <Tobias> Kev, why was the agenda titled 17-12-2013?
[14:07:25] <Kev> Because it was the 17th when I wrote it, and I'm not very smart.
[14:07:32] <Tobias> ahh..ok
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[15:56:59] <Tobias> i'll probably have to leave shortly after begin of the meeting. i'll post my votes on the list
[15:58:06] <Kev> Ta.
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[16:00:02] <stpeter> howdy
[16:00:07] <stpeter> bbiaf, need tea
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[16:02:22] <Tobias> fippo, what's latching?
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[16:05:00] <fippo> tobias: similar to TURN, i.e. a relay in the media path
[16:05:12] <Tobias> ahh..ok
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[16:06:25] <stpeter> hi Ralph!
[16:06:29] <ralphm> hi!
[16:06:30] <stpeter> and bear! :-)
[16:06:42] <bear> morning
[16:06:51] <ralphm> bear: better train your cat
[16:06:52] *stpeter fires up some Glenn Gould to start the work day
[16:07:04] *bear teleports to Peter's house
[16:07:34] <bear> ralph, he's about as trained as you can make a cat - he no longer orders from Amazon via 1-click
[16:07:42] <stpeter> heehee
[16:07:52] <ralphm> :-)
[16:10:20] <Kev> Nearly time, it is.
[16:10:42] <Kev> 'tis time, 'tis time.
[16:11:03] <stpeter> are we almost there yet? ;-)
[16:11:13] <ralphm> Jingle on!
[16:11:18] <Kev> 1) Bread products()
[16:11:22] <Kev> I'm here.
[16:11:30] <Lance> here
[16:11:41] <ralphm> Croissant.
[16:11:52] <fippo> semmel
[16:12:10] <Kev> Tobias / MattJ.
[16:12:17] <Tobias> I'm not
[16:12:21] <MattJ> Here
[16:12:27] <Kev> 2) http://fippo.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jingle-sources.html
Accept?
[16:12:32] <Kev> +1
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[16:12:32] <MattJ> +1
[16:12:39] <Lance> +1
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[16:12:58] <fippo> oh, this still says the example was taken from 5576
[16:13:05] <fippo> I can fix that before publication
[16:13:21] <Kev> I thought I checked the diff and it didn't any more.
[16:13:23] <Kev> Oops.
[16:13:30] <MattJ> I trusted you, fippo!
[16:13:37] <stpeter> trust, but verify!
[16:13:39] <Kev> Anyway, yes, please remove before publication.
[16:14:02] <Kev> 3) http://fippo.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jingle-grouping.html
Accept?
[16:14:28] <Lance> +1
[16:14:38] <Kev> +1
[16:14:40] <MattJ> +1
[16:15:02] <Kev> I'm casually assuming fippo is +1
[16:15:18] <fippo> kev: thanks (-:
[16:15:41] <Kev> 4) Date of next.
[16:16:12] <ralphm> 8
[16:16:12] <Kev> 8th Jan?
[16:16:20] <Lance> lgtm
[16:16:22] <fippo> WFM
[16:16:33] <Peter Waher> I wonder what is missing for eventlogging to be approved as experimental and get a number?
[16:17:05] <MattJ> wfm
[16:17:11] <Kev> Peter Waher: That's done, isn't it?
[16:17:13] <MattJ> sorry, my ethernet cable fell out
[16:17:20] <Kev> Ah, no.
[16:17:22] <Peter Waher> well, it hasn't been published
[16:17:28] <Kev> Needs Fippo and Matt to not object.
[16:17:32] <stpeter> Kev: I think we were waiting for Council members to vote
[16:17:32] <Kev> There's another week for them to do so.
[16:17:39] <fippo> kev: no objections
[16:17:54] <fippo> (didn't I say that before?)
[16:18:04] <Kev> fippo: Not in response to the minutes, at least.
[16:18:11] <Kev> Just MattJ, then.
[16:18:13] <Kev> 5) AOB?
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[16:18:27] <stpeter> I mentioned another vote on XEP-0152
[16:18:34] <fippo> any new votes on colibri?
[16:18:34] <MattJ> Sorry, didn't know that was waiting on me - though I know BOSH is
[16:18:45] <MattJ> I'll get to it
[16:18:46] <stpeter> the previous Council did not complete its voting, and I made changes to address Council feedback
[16:19:16] <Kev> stpeter: I think the procedure, given xep1, is for another if Council doesn't finish voting by the end of term.
[16:19:22] <fippo> stpeter: is 0152 referenced by cusax?
[16:19:23] <Kev> Although I'm happy to skip that if everyone else is.
[16:19:31] <stpeter> fippo: yes
[16:19:41] <stpeter> Kev: yes, another vote for sure
[16:19:52] <MattJ> I'm happy with 152
[16:19:57] <Kev> fippo: No, that's still pending me to review it (colibri), I have a TODO.
[16:19:58] <Lance> +1 on 152
[16:20:04] <stpeter> but that can wait until the next meeting, I think (for 152)
[16:20:05] <Kev> stpeter: There was an "LC" missing from that sentence.
[16:20:17] <fippo> i'll review 0152 tomorrow, but it looked good
[16:20:22] <stpeter> Kev: ah, that I'm not completely sure of, but either way is fine with me
[16:20:28] <stpeter> and yes, it is referenced by RFC 7081
[16:20:38] <Kev> That is - I think xep1 says to LC again if Council doesn't finish voting by the end of term, but I'm not opposed to skipping it if everyone's happy to.
[16:20:44] <stpeter> (informationally, anyway)
[16:21:10] <Kev> Shall we schedule to vote on it on the 8th?
[16:21:22] <stpeter> Kev: you are right...

If the XMPP Council does not complete voting on a XEP before the end of its term, the XMPP Extensions Editor shall issue a new Last Call on the Standards list and the newly-elected Council shall vote anew on the XEP after completion of the Last Call. This provides an opportunity for any member of the previous Council who had voted -1 to voice his or her concerns in a public forum before the new Council votes on the XEP.
[16:21:37] <ralphm> Did we even start voting?
[16:21:38] <stpeter> so let's follow our process :-)
[16:22:15] <Kev> stpeter: WFM.
[16:22:18] <Kev> Any other AOB?
[16:22:23] <stpeter> (BTW I also plan to ask the Council for a LC on XEP-0279)
[16:22:25] <stpeter> one AOB
[16:22:28] <stpeter> or 2 perhaps
[16:22:51] <ralphm> (i.e. 0152 is not listed in the tally for the 12th council)
[16:22:52] <stpeter> (1) are we OK with accepting proposals (like Philipp's) that have not gone through the inbox?
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[16:23:21] <Kev> stpeter: Not in general, no.
[16:23:24] <fippo> stpeter: the xml is in the inbox actually
[16:23:26] <Peter Waher> So, am I waiting for input on eventlogging to continue?
[16:23:28] <MattJ> What practical difference does it make?
[16:23:33] <MattJ> Peter Waher, yes
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[16:23:41] <MattJ> (from me, it seems)
[16:23:42] <Peter Waher> when can I expect this input?
[16:23:51] <Kev> Peter Waher: Within a week.
[16:23:52] <ralphm> Section 5 of XEP-0001 clearly shows that it is not ok.
[16:23:53] <stpeter> (2) see discussion about the liaison relationship with UPnP Forum, but that's before the XSF membership right now so no action required for the Council
[16:24:00] <Peter Waher> thanks
[16:24:13] <Kev> (People who don't vote in a meeting get a fortnight to do so on-list before they're DNV)
[16:24:31] <stpeter> MattJ: it doesn't make a practical difference, so I think it's fine to have people request publication in a less formal way, I just want to make sure we're all clear that this is fine :-)
[16:24:53] <ralphm> Although I am no longer on the council, I prefer we stick to the procedure
[16:25:06] <MattJ> If I can see rendered versions easily before voting, I'm not too concerned about what the URL is :)
[16:25:11] <ralphm> because it is a single location and notification to the standards@ list is part of it
[16:25:24] <Kev> I think this was a special case, as it was put in inbox, and there was a non-technical change needed when Council voted on it.
[16:25:43] <Kev> But in just about all cases, I think it should go through the inbox+Peter.
[16:25:46] <ralphm> I thought this was about the generic case, not this one.
[16:26:15] <Peter Waher> the tables in IM discussion, I would also appreciate some feedback on this issue
[16:26:31] <Kev> (I note we sometimes pre-approve stuff, too, which is ~= the same as this case)
[16:26:33] <stpeter> (as to inbox+Peter, I was thinking last night that we might want to turn the editor's role into a standing XSF Work Team, but I'll ponder that a bit more before suggesting it to the membership... :-)
[16:26:43] <Peter Waher> especially from Peter, since he's the author of XHTML-IM, and recommended a separate XEP in favor of using XHTML-IM
[16:26:44] <Kev> stpeter: That seems like a sensible thing to do.
[16:27:06] <stpeter> Peter Waher: yes, I will review your proposal and the email thread after the Board meeting
[16:27:12] <Kev> Peter Waher: I'll try to get to it when I'm trying to clear out my XSF stuff when I get back from holiday in the new year.
[16:27:29] <Peter Waher> excellent, thanks :)
[16:27:49] <ralphm> Lance mentioned some confusement on his part regarding tables, and I have the same.
[16:28:03] <Kev> I think we're done for the Council meeting, then?
[16:28:10] <ralphm> Was it really suggested it would not be another profile of XHTML in a different XEP?
[16:28:17] <stpeter> Kev: yes
[16:28:27] <Kev> Marvellous, thanks all.
[16:28:31] *Kev bangs the gavel.
[16:28:44] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[16:29:14] <Kev> ralphm: I thought the suggestion (I've not looked at that thread in a while) was to have a discoverable feature that meant "And I also accept xhtml-im tables", and that was about it.
[16:29:23] <ralphm> Kev: right
[16:29:28] <Lance> Kev: ok, that was my take away too
[16:29:28] *stpeter nods
[16:29:42] <ralphm> Kev: so I don't really understand why Peter Waher went for a separate thing.
[16:30:11] <Kev> I've not looked at it in a while, I need to catch up.
[16:30:15] <Peter Waher> I understood it that way
[16:30:29] <Peter Waher> because so many did not want to change the XHTML-IM implementation
[16:30:33] <Peter Waher> thinking it was too complex
[16:30:38] <Peter Waher> with rendering
[16:30:55] <Kev> I don't think it was a case of complexity, it was a case of not shoving new stuff into a Draft XEP.
[16:31:05] <Kev> Or, at least, that would be my complaint.
[16:31:24] <ralphm> IMO we could amend XHTML-IM to allow for (discoverable) extensions and then have the XHTML Basic Tables Module.
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[16:31:45] <stpeter> ralphm: quite possibly, yes
[16:32:26] <Kev> ralphm: Although XHTML-IM itself doesn't need to allow for discoverable extensions, I think, if another XEP just says "If you advertise feature X, also accept tables".
[16:32:45] <ralphm> Kev: the XEP forbids it currently
[16:32:56] <ralphm> so at least some word smithing is in order
[16:33:07] <Kev> Nothing is forbidden by negotiation :)
[16:34:32] <Peter Waher> the problem with the XHTML table module is that it is rather complex, and there was a desire to have a reduced set also
[16:35:13] <Peter Waher> and then there was the discussion about blacklisting vs. whitelisting which made me feel the XHTML-IM was a topic some didn't want to touch
[16:42:22] <Lance> the black/whitelisting issue is mainly just client implementation details we've found to occur in practice (where using only a blacklist is insecure against creative attackers). we just have to ensure that things work when only a whitelist is in use, since that's the safer route
[16:51:02] <ralphm> People will otherwise simply map the new stuff to HTML. Badly.
[17:08:09] <stpeter> Peter Waher: well, we have "profiled" the other modules (some of which are also complex), so I don't see that as a showstopper
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[17:09:22] <Peter Waher> ok
[17:10:09] <Peter Waher> so, if you could revise the previous communication and then let me know in detail how you would like to see this extended, I can write an extension accordingly
[17:10:50] <Peter Waher> if you feel the proposal is not in accordance to what you prefer
[17:11:54] <stpeter> Peter Waher: yes, I will look at it in more detail here very soon
[17:12:12] <Peter Waher> (y)
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[18:29:52] *** Lance has left the room
[18:29:54] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:38:14] *** bear shows as "away"
[18:39:53] *** bear shows as "online"
[18:41:09] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:43:27] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:44:34] *** Lance has left the room
[18:44:35] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:45:11] *** Lance has left the room
[18:45:12] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:45:28] *** Lance has left the room
[18:45:32] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:45:48] *** Lance has left the room
[18:45:49] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:47:58] *** Lance has left the room
[18:47:59] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:48:05] *** Lance has left the room
[18:48:08] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:49:58] *** Lance has left the room
[18:49:59] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:50:07] *** bear shows as "away"
[18:50:09] *** Lance has left the room
[18:50:12] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:50:54] *** Lance has left the room
[18:50:57] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:51:17] *** Lance has left the room
[18:51:20] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:51:36] *** Lance has left the room
[18:51:39] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:51:49] *** Lance has left the room
[18:51:56] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:54:24] *** Lance has left the room
[18:54:25] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:54:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:54:48] *** Lance has left the room
[18:54:50] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:55:13] *** Lance has left the room
[18:55:17] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:55:36] *** Lance has left the room
[18:55:39] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:55:48] *** Lance has left the room
[18:55:52] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:56:30] *** Lance has left the room
[18:56:31] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:56:57] *** Lance has left the room
[18:57:01] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:57:06] *** Lance has left the room
[18:57:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:57:42] *** Lance has left the room
[18:57:49] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:58:40] *** Lance has left the room
[19:03:37] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:03:44] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:04:27] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:05:05] *** Lance has left the room
[19:05:10] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:08:14] *** bear shows as "online"
[19:08:48] *** bear shows as "away" and his status message is "Away"
[19:12:45] *** Lance has left the room
[19:14:25] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:14:33] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:19:40] *** Lance has left the room
[19:19:47] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:20:23] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is "Away as a result of being idle"
[19:20:57] *** Lance has left the room
[19:21:04] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:22:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:22:39] *** Lance has left the room
[19:23:33] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:23:40] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:25:11] *** Lance has left the room
[19:25:18] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:26:38] *** Lance has left the room
[19:26:43] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:27:12] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[19:27:20] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:27:36] *** Lance has left the room
[19:28:57] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[19:29:23] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:30:44] *** Lance has left the room
[19:30:48] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:31:27] *** Lance has left the room
[19:31:28] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:31:51] *** Lance has left the room
[19:31:53] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:32:14] *** Lance has left the room
[19:32:17] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:32:40] *** Lance has left the room
[19:32:43] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:32:49] *** Lance has left the room
[19:32:50] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:33:19] *** Lance has left the room
[19:33:22] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:33:30] *** Lance has left the room
[19:33:35] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:34:34] *** Lance has left the room
[19:34:37] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:37:08] *** Lance has left the room
[19:37:11] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:38:09] *** Lance has left the room
[19:38:10] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:38:17] *** Lance has left the room
[19:38:20] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:38:39] *** Lance has left the room
[19:38:42] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:38:56] *** Lance has left the room
[19:38:59] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:39:24] *** Lance has left the room
[19:39:27] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:39:35] *** Lance has left the room
[19:39:36] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:42:00] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:43:27] *** Lance has left the room
[19:43:30] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:43:39] *** Lance has left the room
[19:43:43] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:44:09] *** Lance has left the room
[19:44:51] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:45:10] *** Lance has left the room
[19:45:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:48:52] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is "I'm out enjoying life"
[19:49:25] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:49:32] *** MattJ shows as "away"
[19:50:55] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[19:51:52] *** Kev shows as "away"
[19:52:02] *** Dave Cridland has left the room
[19:52:04] *** Dave Cridland has joined the room
[20:01:49] *** Lance shows as "away"
[20:06:17] *** MattJ shows as "online"
[20:09:49] *** stpeter shows as "away" and his status message is "wandered off..."
[20:17:03] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:22:15] *** stpeter shows as "online"
[20:29:18] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:29:19] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:34:41] *** Lance has left the room
[20:34:54] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:36:58] *** Lance has left the room
[20:37:00] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:37:32] *** Lance has left the room
[20:37:35] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:37:55] *** Lance has left the room
[20:37:56] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:38:03] *** Lance has left the room
[20:38:04] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:38:10] *** Lance has left the room
[20:38:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:39:54] *** Lance has left the room
[20:39:55] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:41:25] *** Lance has left the room
[20:41:28] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:41:40] *** Lance has left the room
[20:41:43] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:42:00] *** Lance has left the room
[20:42:04] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:42:22] *** Lance has left the room
[20:42:24] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:43:13] *** Lance has left the room
[20:43:14] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:46:03] *** Lance has left the room
[20:46:04] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:46:39] *** Lance has left the room
[20:46:40] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:47:16] *** Lance has left the room
[20:47:19] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:47:25] *** Lance has left the room
[20:47:28] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:47:55] *** Lance has left the room
[20:47:56] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:48:15] *** Lance has left the room
[20:48:16] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:48:45] *** Lance has left the room
[20:48:46] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:48:54] *** Lance has left the room
[20:48:55] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:49:58] *** Lance has left the room
[20:49:59] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:50:10] *** Lance has left the room
[20:50:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:51:07] *** Lance has left the room
[20:51:08] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:53:28] *** Lance has left the room
[20:53:32] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:58:27] *** tato has joined the room
[21:00:14] *** tato has left the room
[21:01:16] *** tato has joined the room
[21:20:15] *** Lance shows as "away"
[21:28:06] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:33:02] *** Lance has left the room
[21:33:06] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:35:07] *** tato has left the room
[21:36:22] *** Lance has left the room
[21:36:26] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:36:43] *** Lance has left the room
[21:36:44] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:37:19] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:38:08] *** Lance has left the room
[21:38:09] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:38:41] *** Lance has left the room
[21:38:42] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:40:31] *** Lance has left the room
[21:40:32] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:41:24] *** Lance has left the room
[21:41:25] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:41:56] *** Lance has left the room
[21:41:57] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:42:14] *** Lance has left the room
[21:42:15] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:43:28] *** Lance has left the room
[21:43:30] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:45:07] *** Lance has left the room
[21:45:09] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:45:26] *** Lance has left the room
[21:45:29] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:46:41] *** Lance has left the room
[21:46:42] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:46:53] *** Lance has left the room
[21:46:56] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:48:22] *** Lance has left the room
[21:48:23] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:49:10] *** Lance has left the room
[21:49:11] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:49:14] *** Lance has left the room
[21:49:15] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:49:34] *** Lance has left the room
[21:49:37] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:51:07] *** Lance has left the room
[21:51:08] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:52:22] *** Lance has left the room
[21:52:23] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:52:28] *** Lance has left the room
[21:52:29] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:52:46] *** Lance has left the room
[21:52:49] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:53:20] *** Lance has left the room
[21:53:21] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:54:40] *** Lance has left the room
[21:54:41] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:55:38] *** Lance has left the room
[21:55:41] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:56:51] *** Lance has left the room
[21:56:53] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:58:02] *** Lance has left the room
[21:58:03] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:58:45] *** Lance has left the room
[21:58:46] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:01:42] *** Lance has left the room
[22:01:44] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:01:53] *** Lance has left the room
[22:01:55] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:02:00] *** Lance has left the room
[22:02:02] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:02:11] *** Lance has left the room
[22:02:13] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:06:28] *** Neustradamus has left the room
[22:06:30] *** Neustradamus has joined the room
[22:10:03] *** Lance has left the room
[22:10:04] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:11:42] *** Lance has left the room
[22:11:44] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:18:43] *** Lance has left the room
[22:18:44] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:20:44] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:28:42] *** Tobias has joined the room
[22:28:43] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "Available"
[22:31:41] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "gaming"
[22:44:05] *** Zash shows as "away"
[23:38:43] *** stpeter has left the room
[23:47:47] *** Kev has left the room