Wednesday, March 12, 2014
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[08:56:34] <Tobias> do we have a meeting todayß
[08:56:36] <Tobias> do we have a meeting today?
[08:56:52] <Kev> We do.
[08:57:03] <Kev> I just have to survive until then (not feel great yesterday/today)
[08:57:27] <Kev> We've got the TLS/DNSSEC/Dialback ProtoXEP and killing 27 with fire on the agenda.
[08:57:40] <Tobias> ahh..ok
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[15:52:54] <m&m> meeting in 10?
[15:53:02] <stpeter> yep
[15:53:04] <stpeter> AFAIK
[15:53:17] <m&m> stpeter: I have a question for you
[15:53:25] <stpeter> m&m: I have an answer for you!
[15:53:38] <m&m> how do you deal with the RC versions of Draft XEPs?
[15:53:47] <stpeter> ah
[15:53:50] <stpeter> undocumented :-)
[15:53:56] <m&m> that is not covered in the README (-:
[15:53:59] <stpeter> yeah
[15:54:33] <stpeter> first we make sure that they have <interim/> element the header
[15:54:35] <m&m> we can have this discuss on the editor@ list
[15:54:37] <stpeter> in the header
[15:54:39] <stpeter> sure
[16:03:40] <fippo> oh kev?
[16:04:57] <Kev> Tada
[16:05:19] <Kev> 1) Rolls
[16:05:27] <Lance> here
[16:05:53] <fippo> here, now officially being an &yeti
[16:06:49] <Kev> Congrats :)
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[16:06:54] <Kev> Tobias?
[16:07:39] <Kev> Have poked Matt.
[16:07:49] <Tobias> there
[16:08:05] <Kev> OK.
[16:08:19] <Kev> 2) Do we want to burn 27 with fire?
[16:08:29] *m&m vaguely recalls MattJ sending apologies?
[16:08:54] <Kev> m&m: Thanks. Not sure why I missed that, will check later.
[16:09:06] <Lance> What are the problems with 27?
[16:09:13] <Kev> Lance: It's fundamentally broken.
[16:09:33] <stpeter> it would be good to document those, I suppose, if someone is motivated to do so
[16:09:34] <Tobias> Lance, http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_E2E_Security#Comparative_Overview first row
[16:09:45] <fippo> and the requirements "for privacy and security features in a well-rounded instant messaging system" have changed since 2004.
[16:09:54] <Lance> Quite. I'd just like us to have a list of reasons to note when we kill it with fire
[16:10:05] <Kev> Lance: But, it encrypts but doesn't sign messages, and signs presence but without replay protection.
[16:10:32] <Lance> As long as we can point to 'this is why', +1 fire
[16:10:34] <m&m> PGP doesn't have message integrity protection
[16:10:44] <Dave Cridland> m&m, Really?
[16:10:50] <m&m> from the last I looked
[16:10:59] <Tobias> m&m, PGP in general or the way XEP-0027 uses it?
[16:11:02] <m&m> it was added to CMS fairly recently, but I don't see updates to PGP for that
[16:11:46] <Kev> I /think/ the right path is that it's currently Active, so it should be moved to Deprecated and then Obsolete.
[16:12:02] <Kev> So I think
3) Move XEP-0027 to Deprecated
[16:12:06] <Kev> +1
[16:12:20] <Lance> +1
[16:12:24] <m&m> Tobias: in general, to the best of my knowledge
[16:12:28] <MattJ> Hey
[16:12:33] <Kev> Afternoon.
[16:12:45] <fippo> '+1 as well
[16:12:51] <MattJ> +1 to #2, +1 to #3 :)
[16:12:56] <Tobias> +1
[16:13:08] <m&m> Tobias: let's talk later this week, I can help you update the E2E wiki
[16:13:19] <Kev> 3) Move XEP-0027 to Obsolete
[16:13:24] <Kev> +1
[16:13:31] <stpeter> heh
[16:13:43] <m&m> (-:
[16:13:45] <stpeter> wouldn't that be 4)
[16:13:46] <Dave Cridland> Work that state machine.
[16:13:55] <Tobias> m&m, happy to do that :) i'd be great to have a good overview of what solutions we have and how they all failed :D before we start another one
[16:14:04] <Tobias> Kev, +1 on that
[16:14:10] <fippo> ... +1 to burning it with fire, +1 to deprecating it, +1 to obsoleting it
[16:14:33] <Lance> +1 obsolete
[16:15:47] <Kev> I think that's everyone agreed to obsolete it. It's a shame that only the author can retract, because that seems more appropriate than Obsolete, but there we go.
[16:15:51] <Kev> 4) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/starttls-dialback.html
Accept?
[16:16:03] <Kev> I need to vote on list on this.
[16:16:30] <Lance> +1 accept, but it needs some editing & clarifications
[16:16:52] <Dave Cridland> Kev, Retracted is only moved to from Experimental actually.
[16:16:55] <Lance> in particular, the text in example 16 confused me
[16:17:16] <Kev> Dave Cridland: By the state machine, rather than the text, I think.
[16:17:22] <Tobias> +1 on accepting that
[16:17:44] <Dave Cridland> Lance, I'm certainly not going to claim it's ready for anything more than Experimental.
[16:17:48] <fippo> the text in example should say something along the lines of "capulet ignores the EXTERNAL offer, despite what xep-0178 says, and uses dialback"
[16:18:09] <MattJ> +1 to accept
[16:18:36] <Kev> Assuming Fippo is +1, that leaves me on-list.
[16:18:44] <MattJ> I'll note that I thought it was an informational/best practice document, until it started getting into protocol details
[16:18:44] <fippo> oh well, 0178 only says "Server1 considers EXTERNAL to be its preferred SASL mechanism", not that it should do that
[16:18:53] <Dave Cridland> "In this instance, Capulet ignores the EXTERNAL offer (counter to the advice in XEP-0178), and uses with dialback"
[16:19:11] <Kev> 5) Date of next.
[16:19:26] <Dave Cridland> MattJ, It *could* be Informational; I leant toward Standards Track because it can be tested.
[16:19:27] <Kev> SBTSBC?
[16:19:41] <Lance> wfm
[16:19:49] <Tobias> wfm
[16:19:52] <fippo> wfm
[16:19:54] *stpeter agrees with Dave about testability
[16:19:58] <m&m> Re: starttls-dialback, does the Council want it to be Standards Track or Informational?
[16:20:24] <Lance> given dave's comment, i lean standards track
[16:20:28] <MattJ> time/date wfm
[16:20:41] <MattJ> m&m, as is, standards track
[16:20:42] <Kev> I need to have read it before I commend
[16:20:47] <Kev> Or comment, for that matter.
[16:21:09] <stpeter> I commend you for commenting
[16:21:25] <Kev> I note that other similar things (e.g. 178) are Informational.
[16:21:45] <fippo> so is 0185. I have no strong preference here.
[16:21:46] <stpeter> and they might be better as standards track, but I'd need to look again
[16:21:50] <Dave Cridland> stpeter, When he's commented, he'll command.
[16:22:34] <m&m> I will poll the council again just prior to advancement
[16:22:36] <Kev> I'm happy enough the ST, there isn't a clear Right Answer here, to me.
[16:22:42] <Lance> oh, fippo: is 185 obsoleted by 220?
[16:22:54] <Kev> I'll give it a read and comment/commend/command onlist.
[16:22:58] <Kev> 5) Any other business
[16:23:10] <fippo> lance: no, 0185 is just a nice way to implement 0220
[16:23:14] <stpeter> I'm working on an update to XEP-0138
[16:23:16] <Dave Cridland> Right, XEP-0185 is not required for interop, so Informational seems sensible. XEP-0178 is again testable, but I *think* it's merely expanding on RFC 3920 - I wonder if it's now covered by RFC 6120?
[16:23:24] <stpeter> but no action by Council required at this time
[16:23:34] <Lance> ah, ok. i saw "however, the recommendations in this document have been incorporated into Server Dialback (XEP-0220) [2]." and was curious
[16:24:08] <Tobias> no AOB from me
[16:24:13] <Lance> no AOB here
[16:24:17] <Kev> I think we're done then.
[16:24:19] <Kev> Thanks all.
[16:24:19] <m&m> AOB from XEPs
[16:24:27] <Kev> m&m: Just in time.
[16:24:29] <Kev> What've you got?
[16:24:30] <m&m> XEP-0124 is available now to review
[16:24:48] <Kev> m&m: So you want a vote on that next meeting?
[16:25:10] <m&m> Kev: that's your decision (-
[16:25:20] <m&m> but all of the changes are available in 1.10rc3
[16:25:31] <m&m> http://xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0124-1.11rc3.html
[16:25:34] <Kev> I'm not sure it is, actually.
[16:25:53] <Kev> I think once we get told you want a vote on a new version, we have to do it :)
[16:26:31] <m&m> whether it's the next meeting or sometime later is your decision
[16:26:36] <Kev> Fair.
[16:26:40] <m&m> (-:
[16:26:55] <Kev> OK, that's in my TODO.
[16:27:02] <Kev> Anything else?
[16:27:04] <m&m> it's up for your review, and yes a vote is expected (-:
[16:27:21] <m&m> nothing from me … will get the newest protoXEP up before the end of the week
[16:27:25] <Kev> Ta.
[16:27:28] <Kev> Then we're done.
[16:27:29] <Kev> Thanks all
[16:27:32] *Kev bangs the gavel
[16:27:55] <MattJ> Thanks Kev
[16:27:56] <Tobias> thank you
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