Wednesday, January 06, 2016
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[08:41:13] <Kev> Right, that's MUC2 (MIX) finally submitted.
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[08:55:56] <Dave Cridland> \o/
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[09:17:29] <fippo> \o/\o/
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[09:19:14] <Flow> was about time :)
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[10:14:22] <Kev> I took the slightly unusual approach of annotating in the ProtoXEP those points that I thought most needed list discussion. Partly in order to provoke that discussion, but mostly as a warning to early implementors so they think about both cases and don't write code that makes switching later hard.
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[10:33:11] <Dave Cridland> That's useful, I think. The TODO in the XML comments possibly less so.
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[14:57:13] <SamWhited> Woot! Catching up on this mornings conversations… Kev++
[15:21:14] *Dave Cridland does his school run duty prior to Council.
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[15:38:14] <Kev> Lance: I seem to be here, so as long as someone says my name to summon me, I'm happy to spare 30mins to be a poor imitation of SamWhited if that's useful.
[15:38:56] *SamWhited steals covert glances at his computer while in another meeting.
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[16:00:04] *Lance summons Kev
[16:00:07] <Lance> it is time
[16:00:10] <Lance> 0) Roll call
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[16:00:31] <Kev> I assume that's "Yep, please scribe" :)
[16:00:41] <Lance> yep :)
[16:00:44] <psa> hi
[16:00:49] <Dave Cridland> Afternoon.
[16:01:12] <Lance> MattJ Tobias ?
[16:01:20] <Tobi> here
[16:01:28] <Lance> ah, different nick
[16:01:48] <Tobi> yeah...too lazy to move to the other machine or start another swift instance
[16:01:54] <Lance> 1) Update XEP-0080 <https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/128>
[16:02:27] <Tobi> +1
[16:02:44] <psa> +1
[16:02:45] <Lance> I'm +1
[16:02:49] <Tobi> finally a change that you cna read during the meeting :)
[16:03:20] <psa> heh
[16:03:23] <Dave Cridland> While this looks OK, does this imply that consumers of this format need to handle unexpected elements?
[16:03:39] <Tobi> Dave Cridland, isn't that always the case?
[16:03:53] <Tobi> you are supposed to ignore tags you don't understand
[16:04:08] <Dave Cridland> I hadn't thought about this until just now; happy to raise this on the list, mind.
[16:04:37] <MattJ> Here
[16:04:38] <Dave Cridland> Tobi, Not always; ISTR a lengthy discussion about cases where there was a single element expected, and multiple elements were forbidden.
[16:04:40] <Lance> We've added elements before, such as the timezone info
[16:04:56] <Dave Cridland> Lance, Since Draft?
[16:05:00] <Lance> yes
[16:05:22] <Dave Cridland> Lance, As I say, not against the change, I just noticed now there's no warning to clients that new elements may be added.
[16:05:45] <Dave Cridland> So I'll vote +1, but with food for thought for the future.
[16:06:29] *Lance nods
[16:06:35] <Lance> 2) ProtoXEP Mediated Information eXchange (MIX): Accept as Experimental? < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mix.html >
[16:06:40] <Dave Cridland> +1
[16:06:42] <Lance> +1
[16:07:06] <Tobi> haven't read it yet..will do so tomorrow and vote on list
[16:07:11] <SamWhited> +1…
[16:07:44] <Dave Cridland> SamWhited, I'd +2 if I could.
[16:07:53] <Lance> psa MattJ?
[16:08:02] *Kev tries to decide whether to record Sam's +1 in the minutes :)
[16:08:09] <psa> +1 - let the discussion begin!
[16:08:24] <Kev> (Matt didn't vote on item 1 either, that I recorded)
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[16:08:56] <MattJ> +1 to altaccuracy
[16:09:07] <MattJ> +1 to MIX
[16:09:11] <Lance> 3) Summit technical agenda
[16:09:18] <psa> well, that is, let the long overdue public discussion begin ;-)
[16:09:18] <Lance> This was requested by Dave
[16:09:44] <psa> good idea to establish a bit of an agenda ahead of time
[16:10:10] <Dave Cridland> Yes, I'd at least like to have a few topics we'd like to get covered.
[16:10:35] <Lance> I'll take a chance here, and say MIX :)
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[16:10:45] <Dave Cridland> I think MIX is one thing that warrants discussion. Possibly e2e, given the momentum in this area might yield some fruitful discussion.
[16:11:06] <Tobi> E2E also feels sensible with OMEMO and Flow's recent post
[16:11:09] <Kev> I think Flow (if he's attending) might like to say something about the E2E discussions at the GSoC summit.
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[16:11:27] <Kev> I say "might like", but I mean "should be encouraged to" :)
[16:11:38] <Dave Cridland> I don't know if Flow is attending; I think he isn't. But we can figure something out.
[16:12:01] <Tobi> but OMEMO folks are i think
[16:12:06] <Tobi> = daniel
[16:12:33] <Kev> I'd suggest whatever happens that we don't put too many topics on the table that we can't go off-piste (behave) if something interesting comes up. But otherwise, setting some goals for the summit sounds like a good idea to me (having thought about it overnight).
[16:12:36] <Dave Cridland> Also, Kev suggested encouraging someone to take proper minutes, even at the cost of spnsoring someone's attendance. I'd like to know if the Council supports this before raising it at the Board meeting.
[16:13:19] <Tobi> i like the idea..more communication is good
[16:13:21] <Lance> I think having MIX and E2E as target topics is reasonable to me.
[16:13:34] <psa> Proper minutes would be very desirable - it seems that we could crowdsource that via etherpad
[16:13:35] <Lance> +1 to sponsoring a minute taker
[16:13:55] <Kev> psa: I think that generally unless one or two specific people who are good/motivated at that have attended, it's not been done.
[16:14:01] <psa> we actually had decent minutes for the last summit until I dropped off
[16:14:06] *psa nods to Kev
[16:14:14] <Dave Cridland> But it sounds like E2E and MIX are the big ones. I don't think we have sufficient IoT people, otherwise I'd suggest that.
[16:14:20] <psa> right
[16:14:40] <SamWhited> RE minutes: If you want, enso.me (similar to Talky, which we used last time) has a shared notepad built in which works pretty well. No idea how it compares to etherpad, but it's in the same window as the people dialing in, which is nice.
[16:14:45] <psa> and I think the Jingle stuff is mostly done - those are smaller fixes anyway and probably don't require broader discussion
[16:15:06] <psa> SamWhited: same for Jitsi Meet, no? ;-)
[16:15:22] <SamWhited> psa: I don't think Meet has notes? Maybe they've updated that since I last used it though
[16:15:30] <SamWhited> Since they're effectively just different frontends on the same platform
[16:15:55] <SamWhited> mett.jit.si doesn't make you sign in, which is nice; wish it did have notes.
[16:16:17] <SamWhited> Oh hey, nope, psa is right. Ignore me, it totally has notes.
[16:16:21] <Lance> Ok, I think we have a good target agenda then
[16:16:30] <Lance> 4) Date of next
[16:16:34] <Lance> sbtsbc?
[16:16:36] <Kev> I don't think I have a suitable summary to minute for the minutes discussion.
[16:16:37] <MattJ> wfm
[16:16:41] <Tobi> wfm
[16:17:00] <Lance> Kev: Council recommends discussing MIX and E2E at the summit
[16:17:15] <MattJ> Kev, "various options for taking minutes were discussed" - I don't think there was a conclusion reached about which we'll take :)
[16:17:17] <psa> SamWhited: click "shared document" in the top bar and that brings up etherpad in Jitsi Meet ;-)
[16:17:18] <Kev> Lance: I've captured that. It was the second point about minutes that I don't think had any conclusions
[16:17:34] <MattJ> That will probably be made on the day, as usual
[16:17:50] <Dave Cridland> Lance, Does the Council want minutes? Does the Council want the Board to Do Something about it?
[16:18:25] <Tobi> i'd say yes to both
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[16:19:27] <Kev> Can I suggest treating this as a pseudovote and getting a +1/-1 from everyone?
[16:19:36] <Lance> Yes
[16:19:38] <Lance> +1
[16:19:39] <psa> +1
[16:19:41] <Kev> I suggest treating this as ...
[16:19:56] <Tobi> +1
[16:20:24] <Kev> Thanks folks, your minutetaker is once again satisfied. :)
[16:20:54] <Dave Cridland> Thanks,#
[16:20:59] <Tobi> thanks
[16:21:00] <Lance> Thanks Kev
[16:21:20] <Lance> psa, Dave: sbtsbc?
[16:21:26] <Dave Cridland> Yes, that's fine.
[16:21:39] <psa> WFM
[16:21:42] <Lance> 5) AOB
[16:21:53] <Tobi> none here
[16:21:56] <psa> I have a question
[16:22:02] <psa> about how we'd like to handle the Jingle updates
[16:22:12] <psa> which are somewhat coordinated across 4 XEPs
[16:22:31] <psa> would the Council prefer to consider those all together at the same time?
[16:22:37] <psa> or trickle out the spec updates?
[16:22:45] <Dave Cridland> Yes.
[16:22:46] <Lance> How coordinated do they need to be?
[16:23:10] <Dave Cridland> I'd like to trickle out the spec updates, but then trigger the formal approval and update simultaneously.
[16:23:11] <Kev> Jingle-XEP-Trickle. I see what you did there.
[16:23:26] <Dave Cridland> Kev, (n)Ice joke there.
[16:23:37] <Kev> Also good.
[16:23:46] <psa> Dave Cridland: sure, that works for me
[16:23:59] <psa> I'll start pushing toward that goal
[16:24:20] <psa> having the Jingle ICE XEP published will help
[16:24:30] <psa> that's enough for me to proceed, thanks
[16:24:35] <psa> </aob>
[16:24:43] <Lance> thanks Peter
[16:24:47] <Lance> Any other AOB?
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[16:25:17] <Dave Cridland> I'd just like to thank Kev for both the minutes and MIX.
[16:25:28] <psa> indeed, thanks Kev!
[16:25:32] <Kev> Welcome, and Peter did most of the MIX wording.
[16:26:15] <Lance> Thanks Kev
[16:26:23] <Dave Cridland> It's the submission that makes me particularly happy, though.
[16:26:38] <Lance> Looks like no other AOB
[16:26:43] *Lance bangs gavel
[16:26:45] <Lance> thanks all
[16:26:51] <Kev> Yes. Although now I'll have to try to find someone to implement it in our codebases :)
[16:26:53] <Kev> Thanks all :)
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[16:32:22] <psa> SamWhited: I'm still thinking about your i18n question ;-)
[16:32:49] <Kev> I want special recognition for managing to write 2016 not once, but twice in the minutes without writing 2015 first.
[16:33:01] <Lance> ^5 Kev
[16:33:09] <Kev> Thank you, thank you.
[16:33:25] <Tobi> is there an award for that?
[16:33:32] <SamWhited> psa: Yah, no worries; I actually avoided it all together by just not having a preparation step and always doing enforcement (at least with existing profiles, the benchmarks I wrote were plenty fast)
[16:33:38] <Kev> I'm hoping the award is Tobi +1ing MIX :)
[16:34:55] <psa> hehehe
[16:35:04] <psa> SamWhited: interesting!
[16:35:33] <Dave Cridland> Lance, I think you mean ^6.
[16:36:12] <Kev> Two observations after taking minutes (neither of which need any actions, they're just observations). 1) Writing the minutes as you went along was easier that waiting until afterwards (possibly I should have always done this instead of doing it post-meeting). 2) I think it helps to be thinking of the minutes to ensure stuff that means actions gets definite conclusions (which was my argument for not having non-chair minute takers, but in this case as long as people don't mind the minute taker moaning until there's a resolution that seems to not matter).
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[16:37:38] <psa> Kev: good points, both
[16:37:45] <Dave Cridland> Indeed. In real meetings, when I'm taking minutes, I've tended to halt discussion in order to read out my suggested summary if I can't figure it out, or it it's unclear.
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[16:41:37] <Lance> Kev: good feedback, thanks
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[16:48:21] <Lance> For the record then: anytime a minute taker wants to request a +/-1 vote to clarify things or get a summary, I'll allow it :)
[16:48:31] <Lance> SamWhited ^
[16:49:02] <SamWhited> Ack
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[18:41:07] *** psa shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:42:20] *** Flow shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[20:00:23] *** Tobias shows as "online" and his status message is "crypto coding…"
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