XMPP Council - 2017-01-18


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  22. Link Mauve Hmm, I will be on a coach today during the meeting, I don’t know if they have wifi there so I might be unable to join. :/
  23. Tobias Link Mauve, thanks for letting us now :)
  24. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiBI3A2WcrE
  25. daniel I wont be able to attend either.
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  41. Tobias seems it's about time
  42. Tobias 1) Roll call
  43. SamWhited waves
  44. Tobias Link Mauve and daniel sent apologies earlier today
  45. Tobias Dave Cridland?
  46. Tobias .
  47. Tobias has left
  48. Dave Cridland Hiya
  49. Tobias 2) Minute Taker
  50. Tobias happy to do it if nobody else wants
  51. SamWhited I'll do it
  52. Tobias ok
  53. Tobias 3) Move XEP-0153: vCard-Based Avatars to "Obsolete"
  54. Tobias seems the discussion pretty much died
  55. Tobias but hey..let's vote anyway
  56. Tobias -1
  57. SamWhited +1
  58. Dave Cridland I think there's no concensus to do this, so -1.
  59. Dave Cridland Ugh. Consensus.
  60. Dave Cridland Actually I don't even know how to spell anything at all today.
  61. Kev 'anything'
  62. SamWhited Dave Cridland: Not to worry, that's me every day :)
  63. Tobias the rest will vote on list, if they want to i assume
  64. Dave Cridland What about the 'at all'? See? Fraught with complexity.
  65. Tobias 4) XEP-0300 fixing, and Jingle FT
  66. Tobias according to latest news, Swift does Jingle FT :4 with base64 and Salut-a-toi does Jingle FT :4 with hex encoding
  67. Tobias everyone in agreement that bumping versions, fixing examples and explitly specifing what encoding to use is the right way to go from here?
  68. Dave Cridland Which namespaces are getting bumped?
  69. Dave Cridland Jingle FT *and* hashes?
  70. Tobias Jingle FT and hashes, yes
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  72. SamWhited +1 for namespace bump and specifying an encoding
  73. Dave Cridland Does Jingle FT need it? I thought bumping hashes would be sufficient?
  74. Link Mauve Dave Cridland, that was my understanding too.
  75. Tobias Kev suggested this would be neede
  76. Tobias *needed
  77. Link Mauve I found some wifi at the first stop, but no wifi in the coach itself. :(
  78. SamWhited You'd have to bump the version that Jingle FT used for hashes, wouldn't that break Jingle FT compatibility if two things were advertising ft:4 but using different hashes versions?
  79. SamWhited So I think that means you'd have to bump FT too
  80. Kev What Sam said.
  81. Kev Unless he and I have both misunderstood Jingle FT.
  82. Dave Cridland Does Jingle FT mandate hashes? I thought they were optional.
  83. SamWhited "REQUIRED when offering a file, otherwise OPTIONAL"
  84. Tobias Kev, although XEP-0300 version is discoverable via caps, so clients could send the version the other side supports
  85. Dave Cridland Ah, no, REQUIRED when offering.
  86. Dave Cridland Also, it requires a specific namespace.
  87. Dave Cridland So yeah, bump away.
  88. Link Mauve Indeed, then +1 to bumping both.
  89. Tobias ok..great
  90. Tobias will prepare the required PRs over the week
  91. Tobias 5) Sam's elaborate topic "A bit late, but let's have a vote on moving the 2016 compliance suite forwards. Even if we get vetoes or people think it doesn't make sense, that will give me a place to start on changes to the 2017 ones."
  92. Tobias i think it'd make more sense to ship out a compliance suite XEP for 2017 at this point
  93. SamWhited heh, sorry, that description got a bit out of hand
  94. SamWhited In that case, what differences should there be for 2017?
  95. Dave Cridland Um. I'll have to go on list for this. But I don't *think* 2016 is ready, quite, yet from what I recall.
  96. Tobias SamWhited, my idle XEP..but yeah...i'll post more on the list
  97. SamWhited Sounds good; I'll start a list topic about what we want for a 2017 list then, and people can reply with fixes there.
  98. SamWhited Unless someones already done it or is drafting an email, in which case I'll wait for that
  99. Tobias SamWhited, sounds like a plan
  100. Tobias 6) Accept https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bind2.0.html as experimental
  101. SamWhited One more thing
  102. SamWhited before we move on
  103. Tobias ok
  104. SamWhited On this topic: can we go ahead and deprecate the 2010 ones and just not have compliance suites for a bit? I still feel like it's confusing to have them hanging around when we have no new alternative and many of the things in them are probably out of date.
  105. SamWhited Especially if we're going to be starting over again on 2017 ones which will presumbaly take a while to get right.
  106. Dave Cridland Is no current compliance suite better than an out of date one?
  107. SamWhited I think so
  108. Tobias SamWhited, probably makes sense...although i think we should have at least a new one before deprecating the old one
  109. Dave Cridland I think I'd want to review them again to understand why.
  110. SamWhited We've had a new one for a while, it just didn't get advanced. I suspect a new-new one would be the same way
  111. SamWhited If 2010 (or whatever it is) is up to date, I think it's fine, but otherwise I think it's better to have no recommendation than to have old ones that may be wrong
  112. Tobias SamWhited, true...the 2016 is experimental, so fine my be deprecating the 2010 one
  113. Dave Cridland I don't think they're likely to be wrong. But in any case, I'll review and get back to you.
  114. SamWhited I wouldn't want someone to go implement, eg. SI file transfer or something if everything is moving to Jingle just because they saw it in an old document
  115. SamWhited Yah, if they're not wrong I suppose it's fine to leave them
  116. SamWhited I haven't actually looked; although it still looks bad that the current up to date recommendations are from 2010
  117. SamWhited Might be better to deprecate just for image
  118. Tobias SamWhited, any other points on that topic?
  119. SamWhited Nope, that's it. Thanks.
  120. Tobias 6) Accept https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bind2.0.html as experimental
  121. Kev "I wouldn't want someone to go implement, eg. SI file transfer or something if everything is moving to Jingle just because they saw it in an old document" Sounds sound to me, FWIW.
  122. SamWhited (note that I'm not sure that SI File Transfer is in there; that was just the first thing that was sort of superseded that came to mind)
  123. SamWhited +1 to accept bind 2.0
  124. Dave Cridland +1 on Bind 2.0.
  125. Dave Cridland SamWhited, It isn't.
  126. Tobias +1, although it's missing tons of specific references to the standards and extensions it talks about
  127. Dave Cridland SamWhited, The only "old" thing is Privacy Lists.
  128. SamWhited Dave Cridland: I definitely think we should deprecate it then
  129. Dave Cridland SamWhited, Only applies to Advanced Server, actually.
  130. Tobias 7) Deferring lots of XEPs
  131. Tobias SamWhited, why did you put that on the agenda?
  132. SamWhited Just wanted to mention that I'd done this in the notes (in case it wasn't obvious)
  133. Dave Cridland Tobias, I think he likes deferring things and has run out?
  134. SamWhited If you notice anything wrong, or want to push something forward please do so
  135. SamWhited I do like deferring things :)
  136. Tobias we used to have a calendar that had the dates in for when XEPs expire or are deferred
  137. Tobias but people thought we needed a new website instead :P
  138. SamWhited Zash suggested a bot that deferred things automtaically; I doubt anyone has the bandwidth, but I liked the idea
  139. Tobias ok..guess that's noted then
  140. Tobias 8) Consider advancing XEP-0333: Chat Markers to LC
  141. SamWhited Related; this is the only deferred thing that stood out to me as in wide spread use (I think?) and that hasn't been changed because it appears to be working.
  142. Tobias is it in wide spread use?
  143. Kev Is it in widespread use? :)
  144. SamWhited I thought so? Conversations does it anyways, and I tend to see it for all my contacts (only a few of which use Conversations), but I don't have a lits.
  145. Dave Cridland Is it in... Oh, wait.
  146. SamWhited Maybe no action is necessary
  147. Dave Cridland LC it. If it's good enough to implement, and seems to be working, it's probably ready for a Last Call.
  148. Dave Cridland And if nobody responds and/or people flag issues, then that was what LC was for.
  149. Tobias happy to LC it , yes
  150. Dave Cridland In particular, "widespread use" is for Draft->Final, really, not Experimental->Draft.
  151. Kev Might be worth LCing 233 while we're at it.
  152. Dave Cridland Kev, Hmmm. Why is Mili's name not on that? She wrote/rewrote quite a chunk of that, didn't she?
  153. Tobias happy to have an LC on that too
  154. Dave Cridland Happy to LC it, mind. Just glanced at it and was surprised.
  155. Tobias 9) Date of next
  156. Tobias same time next week?
  157. SamWhited Cool, I'll issue LCs on both of those then.
  158. SamWhited WFM
  159. Tobias wfm
  160. Dave Cridland Tobias, WFM, noting that I'll be travelling the week after.
  161. Tobias 10) AOB (probably none because of all the discussions in between)
  162. Tobias no AOB it seems, YAY
  163. Tobias bangs the gavel
  164. Tobias thanks everyone
  165. SamWhited Thanks all!
  166. Tobias SamWhited, thanks for wrtiting up the minutes
  167. SamWhited sure thing; sent
  168. SamWhited actually, how does LC work? I guess that needs to be pending votes too
  169. SamWhited Or would the absentees just vote on the LC itself?
  170. Zash Or do they vote after the LC?
  171. SamWhited Process is hard.
  172. SamWhited goes to try and find a reference
  173. Zash To the XEP 1 machine!
  174. Tobias "Before an Experimental XEP may be proposed to the XMPP Council for advancement to Draft (Standards Track XEPs) or Active (Historical, Informational, and Procedural XEPs), the XMPP Council must agree that the XEP is ready to be considered for advancement. Once the Council so agrees, it shall instruct the XMPP Extensions Editor to (1) change the status of the XEP from Experimental to Proposed and (2) issue a Last Call for open discussion on the Standards list. The Last Call shall expire not less than fourteen (14) days after the date of issue."
  175. SamWhited "Once the council agrees", so I guess that needs a vote
  176. Tobias SamWhited, we first vote on it (probably the safest to show we're all in agreement)
  177. SamWhited Fixed; marking us all as +1
  178. Tobias SamWhited, so...let's vote on it next week?
  179. SamWhited Oh, or that; I'm doubly getting ahead of myself
  180. Tobias or do the minutes include a record for voting so others know they'll have to vote on it
  181. Tobias otherwise it'll look a bit odd
  182. Kev > Kev, Hmmm. Why is Mili's name not on that? She wrote/rewrote quite a chunk of that, didn't she? Probably because adding oneself to the author list is unseemly, and no-one else did it.
  183. SamWhited It says that we all agreed
  184. Tobias considering how long they were ignored one week more or less probably doesn't matter
  185. SamWhited yah, WFM
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