Wednesday, January 25, 2017
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:59:07] <moparisthebest> I figured I should show up for this council meeting since you'll be discussing advancing XEP-0368, I'll just stay quiet unless someone highlights me :)
[16:00:16] <Tobias> seems it's about time
[16:00:20] <Tobias> 1) Roll call
[16:00:31] <daniel> here
[16:00:48] <Dave Cridland> Here, but not be for long.
[16:00:55] <Dave Cridland> (Daughter has a doctor's appt)
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[16:01:04] <Tobias> Link Mauve, SamWhited?
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[16:03:18] <Tobias> maybe they'll join later
[16:03:28] <Tobias> 2) Minute taker
[16:03:38] <Tobias> I offer to do it, if nobody else wants
[16:03:56] <Link Mauve> I’m here.
[16:04:03] <daniel> i was just about to say that it's my turn again. but I can do it next time
[16:04:38] <daniel> oh no actually I can't because i'm probably going to be on a train to brussels
[16:04:45] <Tobias> ok..last week we didn't clearly indicate that we wanted to vote on things..so here explitily again
[16:04:50] <Tobias> 3) Voting to Advance XEP-0333 to Last Call
[16:05:00] <SamWhited> Sorry, here
[16:05:12] <Tobias> +1
[16:05:15] <daniel> +1
[16:05:19] <SamWhited> +1
[16:05:34] <Link Mauve> +1
[16:06:19] <Tobias> Dave Cridland, still there?
[16:06:37] <Dave Cridland> Yes, sorry. +1.
[16:06:56] <Tobias> perfect
[16:07:14] <Tobias> 4) Voting to Advance XEP-0233 to Last Call
[16:07:31] <Tobias> +1
[16:08:00] <daniel> on list
[16:08:17] <Dave Cridland> +1.
[16:08:39] <Dave Cridland> Still confused as to why Mili Verma's not listed as an author, mind.
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[16:08:54] <Link Mauve> On list too, I started reading the referenced specifications but I still don’t grasp all of the mechanisms there.
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[16:09:05] <SamWhited> +1; Mind you, I don't feel that I have enough knowledge of Kerberos to know if this is a valid way to do things, or if it's used anywhere or if there have been deployment issues, etc. but I figure that's what LC is for.
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[16:09:32] <Dave Cridland> SamWhited, Mili's edits basically were in response to developing this on WIndows and UNIX.
[16:09:42] <Dave Cridland> SamWhited, So I think it's well past ready.
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[16:10:27] <Tobias> 5) Voting on moving XEP-0368 forward (issuing LC)
[16:10:32] <Link Mauve> +1
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[16:10:42] <Tobias> +1
[16:10:43] <daniel> +1
[16:10:44] <SamWhited> +1
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[16:11:13] <Dave Cridland> +1
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[16:12:11] <Tobias> 6) Short update on XEP-0300 fixing
[16:13:05] <Tobias> I've updated XEP-0300 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/2f21fbef22d484d1651596aeb279b3386398c183 would be nice if people could give a quick overview sometime if they see issues with that, if not we can issue an LC to move that to draft in a couple weeks
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[16:14:03] <Tobias> 7) Voting on moving 2010 compliance suites to obsolete to prevent confusion while we work on the 2017 ones
[16:14:06] <Tobias> +1
[16:14:10] <SamWhited> +1
[16:14:16] <daniel> +1
[16:14:27] <SamWhited> for background, I plan on writing the 2017 ones on the flight to Brussels and withdrawing the 2016 ones
[16:14:28] <Link Mauve> I’ve read it earlier, I was wondering whether making sha3-256 and blake2b-256 mandatory is that sensible before every crypto library is well updated to support them.
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[16:14:36] <Link Mauve> Re: 6)
[16:14:42] <Link Mauve> Tobias, +1.
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[16:14:55] <Link Mauve> Tobias, also obsoleting the 2012 ones.
[16:15:03] <Dave Cridland> -0
[16:15:20] <SamWhited> Oh are there 2012 ones too? Yah, +1 to obsoleting both of them.
[16:15:21] <Dave Cridland> I don't really care, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
[16:15:34] <Dave Cridland> But absolutely not a hill for me to die on.
[16:16:11] <Tobias> Link Mauve, something for the next meeting to vote on then...don't want the topics/voting issues to change mid-meeting, especially not mid-voting
[16:16:18] <Link Mauve> Sure.
[16:16:33] <Tobias> 8) Date of next
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[16:16:52] <Tobias> Does next week work for everyone, or do we want to skip a week?
[16:16:58] <Link Mauve> I won’t be here next week, I’ll be on the train to Brussels.
[16:17:05] <Dave Cridland> I'm not here next week.
[16:17:19] <daniel> i have to check my train schedule again. but i'm fairly certain i'm on a train at 1600Z
[16:17:28] <SamWhited> We could have a small impromptu meeting a little bit later in the day next week
[16:17:30] <Dave Cridland> I'll be driving to Bristol. To take a plane to Amsterdam. To take a train to Brussels.
[16:17:36] <SamWhited> Or on the 2nd
[16:17:40] <Tobias> right, so it'll probably make sense to skip a week
[16:17:42] <Dave Cridland> How many of us are in Brussels on Thursday?
[16:17:42] <daniel> either move it back a couple of hours or skip it
[16:18:05] <daniel> Thursdays yes. also wednesday
[16:18:06] <Tobias> Dave Cridland, i guess everyone
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[16:18:10] <Dave Cridland> We have had a Council meeting in the Summit before, could be fun to do again - might get someone else to take minutes.
[16:18:21] <Link Mauve> Finally! \o/
[16:18:43] <SamWhited> Find a pub and rope someone in to take minutes with the promise that I'll buy them a beer :)
[16:19:31] <Tobias> sure..so sometime thursdays next week?
[16:19:53] <Link Mauve> Wfm.
[16:20:20] <daniel> yes
[16:20:42] <Tobias> great...even if we fail to arrange it, there'll still be a week afterwards :)
[16:20:52] <Tobias> 9) AOB
[16:21:55] <Tobias> doesn't look like it
[16:21:58] *Tobias bangs the gavel
[16:22:02] <SamWhited> Thanks!
[16:22:03] <Tobias> thanks everyone
[16:22:13] <daniel> thank you
[16:22:17] <Link Mauve> Thank you.
[16:22:46] <SamWhited> Tobias: RE 0300, I had the same thought as Link Mauve — how wide spread is sha3? I know the Go standard library has an implementation, but it tends to be ahead of other things. Eg. does Java have one? I don't think Rust does yet (not that that's very relavant, but it's the only other thing I really pay attention too)
[16:22:52] <Tobias> Link Mauve, what environments do you know of with bad sha3 support?
[16:23:24] <Link Mauve> None actually, but probably older openssl don’t have it yet.
[16:23:32] <Tobias> for anything C/C++ related it's probably a little issue as there's ready to use reference impementation code for sha3 and blake
[16:23:35] <SamWhited> Does stable Debian OpenSSL?
[16:23:38] <Zash> OpenSSL doesn't
[16:23:42] <Zash> There's code, but it's not exposed
[16:23:43] <Tobias> recent openssl has blake, they should have sha3 too, not?
[16:24:39] <SamWhited> Oh hey, I lied, Rust has sha3 in the standard library already.
[16:24:48] <Tobias> bouncycastle also has SHA3
[16:25:33] <SamWhited> or rather, it has an implementation already.
[16:25:50] <Link Mauve> OpenSSL apparently still doesn’t have it, according to https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/439
[16:26:10] <SamWhited> Personally I think it would be good to leave it as a SHOULD at least until OpenSSL has it.
[16:26:12] <Tobias> Oracle Java seems to have it since, earlier this month https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8004078 ^^
[16:26:41] <Zash> There's a keccak1600.c in the sources, however it's not used by anything
[16:26:42] <Link Mauve> daniel, any information about Android?
[16:27:03] <daniel> Link Mauve, not from the top of my head
[16:27:10] <SamWhited> If bouncy castle has it would it not work on Android?
[16:27:36] <daniel> SamWhited, if bc has it everything is fine
[16:27:43] <Link Mauve> Ok.
[16:28:14] <Link Mauve> Fyi, Python got both sha3 and blake2 only in 3.6.
[16:29:01] <Tobias> also the idea was having multiple algorithms set to MUST, so implementations strive to support as many of the MUST ones as possible...the it's more likely that there is matching support between two entities
[16:29:35] <Link Mauve> I’m not against it, I was just wondering whether it wouldn’t be a bit too early.
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[16:31:15] <Tobias> Link Mauve, considering how rarely we seem to have updated XEP-0300 the idea was to make it more future proof :) but happy either way...but we should at least aggree on it before voting on it to LC
[16:31:50] <SamWhited> Hmm, I could go either way now. Future proof sounds good; I wouldn't want to block either way.
[16:32:03] <Link Mauve> Same, I’m fine with LC as is.
[16:32:42] <Zash> Isn't there some RFC / BCP you can point to for recommendations, so we don't need to update it as best practices change?
[16:32:58] <Tobias> great...also added a table for the textual names of the new hashes...IANA is a bit slow there, as their table was last updated 2006
[16:33:33] <Tobias> Zash, i don't know of one
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[16:38:05] <Tobias> Zash, I imagine the TLS spec has hash recommendations
[16:38:30] <Tobias> Zash, then again, RFCs don't get updated..only replaced by other RFCs
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