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Tobias
moparisthebest, didn't you plan an update on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0368.html security considerations after last week's discussions with SamWhited?
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moparisthebest
Tobias, I updated it
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Tobias
so it's just the editor that hasn't processed it yet, ok
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moparisthebest
he wanted the description updated, and I changed something else too, I think it's good to go
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moparisthebest
I think he did? I'll check
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moparisthebest
yea that's the latest version
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Tobias
ah..ok
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SamWhited
I thought I merged… refresh?
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Link Mauve
Hi~
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Tobias
yeah..seems it's the latest version
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Tobias
ah..seems it's about time
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Tobias
1) Roll call
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daniel
here
- SamWhited nods
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Dave Cridland
Here.
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Link Mauve
Here too.
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Tobias
great
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Tobias
2) Minute taker
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Tobias
seems jc isn't here, so we need a volunteer
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daniel
i can do it
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Tobias
great
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Tobias
3) Outstanding votes
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Tobias
https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda there are 2 ProtoXEPs and 2 other voting issues on the trello, please see recent minute notes and reply on list to vote
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Dave Cridland
I've a few there.
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Tobias
4) Clarify CSI and Carbons state after SM resumption https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/402
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Tobias
Sam added this earlier this month, Flow closed his PR and opened indepenent PRs instead. Please take a look and reply feedback in the PRs.
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Tobias
5) The Last Call for XEP-0333: Chat Markers ended, daniel is taking maintainership and will probably send in an update sometime so we can vote on advancing it
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SamWhited
If daniel plans on making more changes, I will extend the LC by another week.
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Tobias
more changes? haven't seen changes since the LC was issued
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SamWhited
s/more changes/changes/
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Tobias
ah..k
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Tobias
6) Vote on advancing XEP-0368: SRV records for XMPP over TLS, specifically Version 0.1.2, to Draft
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Tobias
I'll vote on list
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daniel
+1
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SamWhited
I still don't like the direct TLS definition text, but that's an editorial change that can be made during draft
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SamWhited
so +1
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daniel
re extending the last call for xep333. please do. i will make changes in the next wee
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Tobias
Dave Cridland, Link Mauve ?
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Link Mauve
Wasn’t there a pending PR to fix the direct TLS definition?
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Link Mauve
Apparently not.
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Link Mauve
Anyway, will vote on list.
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Dave Cridland
I think '368 is ready to go Draft now.
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Tobias
that's probably supposed to be at least a +0
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Tobias
?
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Dave Cridland
+1
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Tobias
great
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Dave Cridland
FTR, I'm sure there's further editorial fixes, but the technical side seems solid.
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Tobias
7) Date of next
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Tobias
I'm probably traveling next Wednesday around this time
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daniel
should we do tuesday?
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daniel
same time?
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Link Mauve
I’m ok with Tuesday.
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SamWhited
WFM
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Tobias
that could work better for me, yeah
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Tobias
does that work for you, Dave Cridland?
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Dave Cridland
I think so.
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Tobias
great..that would be 2017-02-28 16:00:00 UTC then
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Tobias
8) AOB
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SamWhited
Yes
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Tobias
yeah?
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SamWhited
XEP-0233, 0280, 0334, 0352 had their LCs end today. One of them has a pending PR (0280), otherwise do we want to do anything about them?
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Tobias
probably see what the feedback was on them, if there was positive feedback indicating that they are fine and no changes are required, we can vote on them next week
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Tobias
if the feedback indicates changes are required, they should stay proposed until we receive an update on the XEP
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daniel
334 and 352 are probably good to go
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daniel
but we can vote on that next time
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daniel
i think with these widely deployed xeps no feedback is good feedback
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SamWhited
334 I'm a bit torn about, but I agree with 352
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SamWhited
anyways, next week. In the mean time should I extend the LC or move them back to experimental?
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Tobias
i'd request to extend the LC of XEP-0233 and i'll bug someone who implemented it to respond with feedback on the list
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Kev
FWIW, I don't think that's true, 'no feedback' is generally a sign of no interest in XEPs, which implies they've probably not seen sufficient review.
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Kev
(Not saying that's the case with 334/352 necessarily, but as a general point)
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daniel
Kev, i was specifically talking about those day. as they seem to be used and implemented
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daniel
s/day/two
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Tobias
yup...and we should try bugging people having implemented those...even if they have little time they could simply reply with a mail answering the questions with a short Yes/No.
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Link Mauve
Tobias, that sounds sensible.
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daniel
ok
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Tobias
any other AOB?
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SamWhited
Sounds reasonable; in that case I'll extend the LCs again.
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Tobias
SamWhited, sounds sensible
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Tobias
doesn't look like it
- Tobias bangs the gavel
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Tobias
thanks everyone
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Link Mauve
Thank you!
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Tobias
thank you daniel for writing up meeting minutes
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moparisthebest
note with 368 I made a somewhat major change with the last version
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moparisthebest
SamWhited, pointed out 3.1 had no proper SHOULD/MUST etc language
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moparisthebest
in my mind that was always a MUST (mixing priorities of records), but he and ralphm convinced me it should be a SHOULD
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moparisthebest
so maybe it was only a major change in my mind :)
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Tobias
will give the XEP a total reread this evening then :) luckily it's not that big
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moparisthebest
yea and it works the same both ways, the server op can't tell if you mixed priorities or some ports were blocked
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moparisthebest
so in the grand scheme of things, no big deal
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Dave Cridland
So it might be that there exist circumstances to not mix priorities properly, and it'll still interop? Feels like a SHOULD is OK here.
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Dave Cridland
moparisthebest, What were the cases ralphm and SamWhited were unable to mix priorities?
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moparisthebest
Dave Cridland, ralphm pointed to the python twisted lib that connected to SRV records and how it'd be hard to mix them, but easy to try xmpps-client first then xmpp-client second
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moparisthebest
which is fair, and like you said doesn't affect interop, and moreover is invisible to the server
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Zash
moparisthebest: I also believe that'd be easier to implement.
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moparisthebest
right
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Zash
Keeping track of 'this srv entry is with tls/with starttls' seems like a recipe for messing up
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Dave Cridland
Zash, I found it easy enough, and RFC 6168 is the same, so it's not uncommon.
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moparisthebest
it was easy in conversations
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moparisthebest
you already have to keep an object with 'target' and 'port', throwing 'directTls' in there is trivial?
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Dave Cridland
That's basically what I did in Metre.
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Dave Cridland
It treats a _xmpps-server._tcp record as if it were a _xmpp-server._tcp record with an extra field of "tls=true".
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Zash
I may have done somesuch for DANE
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moparisthebest
conversations code starts about here: https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/blob/master/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/utils/DNSHelper.java#L184
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moparisthebest
and yea I think you'd do DANE the same way, store the key hash on the same object
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moparisthebest
I think, implementing dnssec+dane is fairly high on my priorities as a next patch for conversations
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Dave Cridland
moparisthebest, See the minidns work that the XSF had s a GSoC project a couple of years back - should work fine. Smack uses it already.
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Dave Cridland
moparisthebest, But just do DNSSEC+RFC 6125 names to beging with.
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moparisthebest
yea Dave Cridland conversations already uses minidns, so I think it's basically just writing a bit of code
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moparisthebest
so that brings up an interesting point, DANE can pin certs, public keys, and anywhere in the chain, but the RFC recommends implementations for a specific protocol pick one way and stick with it
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moparisthebest
like for SMTP they just use public key pinning on the end device and that's all that is supported
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moparisthebest
sorry had to run off, but is there a standard like that for DANE with xmpp?
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moparisthebest
or can/should we make one?
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Dave Cridland
DANE-SRV is as close as we get. But I'm happy supporting all forms - I've seen use-cases for all of them.
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moparisthebest
I despise certificate pinning personally hehe
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moparisthebest
pinning the end devices public key is the only way to go in my opinion
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SamWhited
Dave Cridland: I *can* mix priorities, I just don't want too. I'm going to try connecting and starting TLS and connecting and starting a plain stream at the same time probably; if TLS works, it wins, otherwise start using the plain stream that was already being negotiated.
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moparisthebest
attempting simultaneous connections sounds , not good for some reason
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moparisthebest
do you do that now with existing SRV records? attempt them all at once and see which one wins?
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SamWhited
moparisthebest: I'm not doing it for each record, just for each type of record (xmpp vs. xmpps); weights and priorities are still used within those records.
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SamWhited
However, yes, if you have a few servers with identical weights and priorities, I would like to connect to all of them and use whichever one wins.
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SamWhited
(and then if that fails, fall back to the next set of weights/priorities)
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moparisthebest
what's the difference? the server op mixed priorities when they defined them
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moparisthebest
I mean none of this really matters, you can do it however you like and interop and everything will work perfectly
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SamWhited
If the server op made plain a higher priority than TLS, I'm ignoring it. That's basically the only difference.
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moparisthebest
just seems strange, I assumed people that wouldn't mix them would just try xmpps- first, then xmpp-
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SamWhited
That's what I'm doing; doing it at the same time is just an optimization (if we can't do xmpps, we just fallback to the connection that's already started)
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moparisthebest
yea but in doing both at the same time it's slower than just doing the first would be
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moparisthebest
if bandwidth is constrained or anything
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SamWhited
maybe, but I really doubt even the slowest connections are *that* slow (unless you're operating of HFR or something)
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Kev
And no-one would do that, right? :)
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SamWhited
Heh, I'm aware that it exists, I'm just not writing a library that aims to target every single use case (although, this will probably be an option when you configure the session, so it will probably support not doing it this way too, haven't figured the API out yet though)
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Dave Cridland
I was wondering about happy-eyeballs across multiple SRV records.
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Kev
I think I've suggested before that happy-eyeballs across multiple same-priority records is sensible.
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moparisthebest
how many domains have enough servers where it'd make a difference?
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moparisthebest
that's a genuine question I really do not have any idea :)
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SamWhited
I'm not sure; probably not many, but it's also not hard to do or anything, so I'm not sure that it matters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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moparisthebest
it just kind of smells of premature optimization, multi-threaded code where connections are racing and one wins doesn't sound like the simplest thing to implement, especially if 99% of cases have 1 server anyway
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SamWhited
Nah, I've already done it, it was trivial.
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moparisthebest
probably depends a lot on the language too :)
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moparisthebest
what are you using? go still?
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SamWhited
Yah, Go (which indeed is the reason why it was trivial)
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moparisthebest
is that code open source anywhere? I'd like to have a look
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SamWhited
I just need to add it to my XMPP library and also add the XMPP/XMPPS version (although that's not a race, that's waiting on XMPPS and just pre-negotiating XMPP in case XMPPS fails)
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moparisthebest
yea I was thinking about how to implement it in java, but I'm not sure I'd call it trivial
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SamWhited
Nothing is trivial in Java… everything is harder than you expect it to be.
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SamWhited
Or maybe that's just me.
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moparisthebest
I wouldn't go that far :) but yea