XSF logo XMPP Council - 2017-02-28


  1. moparisthebest has left
  2. Lance has left
  3. Lance has joined
  4. Lance has left
  5. Lance has joined
  6. Lance has left
  7. Lance has joined
  8. Lance has left
  9. Lance has joined
  10. Lance has left
  11. Lance has joined
  12. Lance has left
  13. Lance has joined
  14. jere has left
  15. jere has joined
  16. Lance has left
  17. Lance has joined
  18. jere has left
  19. jere has joined
  20. Lance has left
  21. Lance has joined
  22. jcbrand has joined
  23. jere has joined
  24. jcbrand has left
  25. moparisthebest has joined
  26. SamWhited has left
  27. Lance has left
  28. Flow has joined
  29. daniel has left
  30. daniel has joined
  31. daniel has left
  32. daniel has joined
  33. Tobias has joined
  34. jcbrand has joined
  35. ralphm has joined
  36. jcbrand has left
  37. Kev has joined
  38. Zash has left
  39. daniel has left
  40. daniel has left
  41. daniel has joined
  42. daniel has left
  43. daniel has joined
  44. daniel has left
  45. daniel has joined
  46. Lance has joined
  47. daniel has left
  48. daniel has joined
  49. daniel has left
  50. daniel has joined
  51. jcbrand has left
  52. daniel has left
  53. daniel has joined
  54. ralphm has left
  55. jayaura has joined
  56. daniel has left
  57. daniel has joined
  58. ralphm has left
  59. daniel has left
  60. daniel has joined
  61. jere has joined
  62. jere has left
  63. Lance has left
  64. jere has joined
  65. jcbrand has joined
  66. Tobias looks like a quite short agenda for today
  67. jayaura has joined
  68. jayaura has joined
  69. Lance has joined
  70. daniel has left
  71. jere has left
  72. jere has joined
  73. daniel has left
  74. Lance has left
  75. jayaura has joined
  76. jere has left
  77. jayaura has joined
  78. Lance has joined
  79. Lance has left
  80. Flow has left
  81. daniel Guess I finally have to read the sasl 2 xep
  82. SamWhited I read it, but am still not sure how I feel about it. Did an implementation too; felt like there were more element names than there needed to be and that made it tricky to build a state machine to handle everything. Probably not a reason to block, it just felt very incomplete.
  83. moparisthebest Link Mauve 's voting alarm did not seem to work :)
  84. Link Mauve moparisthebest, I did start reading it yesterday evening, but didn’t finish before being too sleepy to continue.
  85. moparisthebest ah that's understandable it is quite boring :)
  86. Zash What's "abject"
  87. Link Mauve Nah, I blame the pancakes I had before. :p
  88. Kev Zash: Extreme(ly bad). e.g. Abject horror.
  89. Zash "You don't have an English dictionary installed." it says
  90. Lance has joined
  91. jayaura has joined
  92. jayaura has joined
  93. daniel SamWhited, i'm not sure if it can be made easier
  94. daniel if you want to support things like tfa
  95. daniel i'm honestly not familiar enough with sasl and it's edge cases to judge that
  96. SamWhited daniel: I think it can just by changing a few element names; my issues were mostly XML layer stuff. Eg. I get a <challenge> and send a <response>, but then in the second step I get an <additional-data> and send a <next-authenticate>
  97. SamWhited So now I can't just have a valid state in the state machine for "expect <challenge>"
  98. SamWhited or similar
  99. SamWhited Alternatively, although I think this one is likely to have a good reason behind it, I'm not 100% sure why we don't just advertise the next set of challenges as a new stream feature; XMPP already has the ability to advertise multiple features.
  100. SamWhited If it's just to merge the final SASL response and the mechanisms list, I'm not sure that's necessary here; it just felt complicated (although I'm also all for saving round trips where possible, I'm just not sure this actually helps much). I dunno, just thinking out loud though, these might not actually be problems.
  101. Dave Cridland SamWhited, If you send a <response/>, your possible outcomes are <success/>, <continue/>, or <challenge/> - not sure there's much I can do to make that simpler.
  102. Dave Cridland SamWhited, As for the features versus other stuff in <continue/>, we could make those stream features (sorta), but we need to send them then because things like "You need to change your password now", or "You need to perform 2FA" are very much per-account.
  103. Dave Cridland On the plus side, a small change means I can get rid of the "=" wart, I think.
  104. SamWhited Dave Cridland: Yah, that makes sense, I'm not sure it's actually a problem. It was just a minor pain point when I was playing around with implementing it.
  105. SamWhited WRT adding stuff to stream features, I just meant that after you negotiate the first round, couldn't you *already* just advertise <mechanisms> again with new mechanisms in the stream features? The second level of negotiation is sort of already implemented
  106. SamWhited Could we piggy back on that?
  107. Zash Didn't SASL2 remove the stream restart?
  108. Dave Cridland SamWhited, I'd feel more comfortable with the <continue/> are if we had actual designs for what happens next, in general. But "maybe".
  109. Dave Cridland Zash, Yes.
  110. Zash But why
  111. SamWhited We don't need a stream restart, do we? Eg. if you don't do a stream restart you're free to continue negotiating features from the list (so maybe they could even be advertised together; <mechanisms> and <secondary-mechanisms> or something)
  112. Dave Cridland Zash, It's only an issue if a SASL-negotiated security layer is negotiated.
  113. SamWhited and if a security layer is negotiated, do a restart and just list the secondary mechanisms in a new <mechanisms> feature (I'm not sure if this actually simplifies anything, but it would mean I don't have to implement retries if my XMPP library already does features)
  114. Dave Cridland Zash, I may be wrong, here, but I don't think there's any current XMPP server that supports SASL security layers.
  115. Zash Does this mean the server must offer *all* features from the start, even features that require authentication?
  116. Dave Cridland Zash, This is a good argument for making the <continue/> and indeed <success/> spit out the stream features.
  117. Dave Cridland Zash, And there's no reason it can't, and no reason to make that need a stream restart (and accompanying round-trip).
  118. Zash How was it, was the specs clear on who could send stream features and when?
  119. Dave Cridland Zash, I mean, we can change SASL2 (if adopted) to do this. Not "we can already".
  120. Lance has left
  121. daniel Did anyone ping jcbrand to inform him that council meeting is today and not tomorrow?
  122. SamWhited *oops* not me.
  123. jcbrand nope
  124. jcbrand but now I know
  125. SamWhited waves
  126. jcbrand :)
  127. SamWhited Tobias, ralphm: I'm pretty sure one of you is the admin of the XSF Trello team; any chance you could create me an editors board? (also possibly move the Council board under the XSF team so that it's in the same location as the board board)
  128. Tobias Kev might know
  129. Kev hmm?
  130. Tobias I certainly don't
  131. SamWhited Ah yes, Kev appears to be an admin too… could you create me an editors board under the XSF team (where the board board lives)?
  132. SamWhited oh wait, maybe Kev's not
  133. SamWhited This is confusing
  134. Tobias there's a XSF team on trello?
  135. SamWhited If the little chevron's mean "admin", ralphm is the only one
  136. Kev I didn't know there was an XSF team in Trello, I thought there was just the standalone Council board.
  137. SamWhited The board's board is under an XSF team
  138. Dave Cridland Kev, There's a Board Board too.
  139. SamWhited (ah yes, I was looking at the wrong one; Kev is only an admin of the standalone council board)
  140. Kev If there's an XSF team I should almost certainly be an admin of it, but I'm not.
  141. SamWhited Maybe when ralphm's next online he can create me a board (and add you as an admin)
  142. Tobias right...but until then we could enjoy ourselves with a fancy council meeting
  143. Tobias 1) Roll call
  144. Link Mauve Hi. o/
  145. SamWhited waves
  146. Dave Cridland Bacon, please.
  147. Tobias daniel, ping
  148. daniel i'm here
  149. Tobias great
  150. Tobias 2) Minute taker
  151. Tobias jcbrand, you're taking minute notes and send them out afterwards, right?
  152. jere has joined
  153. jcbrand yes
  154. Tobias great..ta
  155. Tobias 3) PR: Clarify CSI and Carbons state after SM resumption
  156. Tobias Flow created PRs which clarify things, and asked for council to review https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/427 and https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/428 . Would be nice if people could do so.
  157. daniel where are we currently with the NS bump for carbons?
  158. daniel for now (regarding the other changes) it isn't necessary?
  159. Tobias phew, good question. Haven't read through all the feedback on the carbons LC yet
  160. Link Mauve daniel, it already needs one, for the removal of <private/>.
  161. daniel Link Mauve, are we going to remove that one?
  162. daniel some people wanted to leave it in
  163. Dave Cridland daniel, Georg Lukas has decided to actually put together a PR as a concrete proposal; I've not seen much feedback on that yet.
  164. Tobias Dave Cridland, is that PR already online?
  165. daniel https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/434
  166. daniel probably?
  167. Dave Cridland daniel, FTR, I'm happy if we bump the namespace and do whatever, as long as implementors are likely to follow that and not stick to the old namespace. SO I'm keen to see some feedback.
  168. Tobias ta
  169. SamWhited oh hey, there's a rendered version; I guess I don't have any excuse for not reading it anymore. Will do that.
  170. Tobias right, will put it on my todo too
  171. daniel Dave Cridland, i can live with a bump but i'm not sure if it's worth doing only to get rid of <private>
  172. Dave Cridland SamWhited, You've reminded me of some AOB. Thanks.
  173. daniel if that's the only reason
  174. Dave Cridland daniel, Indeed; but Georg has added some other stuff.
  175. SamWhited 👍
  176. daniel but anyway we should probably discus this in the PRs
  177. Link Mauve daniel, the rules definition from Ge0rG are much more of a reason to bump the namespace.
  178. Dave Cridland daniel, Or even better, on the list.
  179. Link Mauve If we decide to accept #434.
  180. daniel Link Mauve, ok if the rules are a reason it's fine with me.
  181. daniel but lets move on
  182. Tobias 4) georg opened an PR on MUC, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/436
  183. Tobias as it's draft it requires council approval, so i suggest council members give it a review and we'll vote on in next week so he'd have a chance to incorporate review feedback early on
  184. Link Mauve (Still on 3), I would suggest to ask #428 to not bump the namespace, and to let the editor bump it manually once all of the changes are gathered.)
  185. Link Mauve (In the past we’ve had release candidates for some XEPs.)
  186. daniel yes or ask georg to put the same phrasing in his PR
  187. daniel or cherry pick flows commit
  188. daniel or whatever
  189. SamWhited Doesn't matter to me; I'd prefer just to have it bump the namespace and I'll merge several changes (if there are others) and then do a collective revision bump.
  190. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, I'd rather bump it knowing it might well bump some more than risk incompatible deployments.
  191. Link Mauve Tobias, ok, adding it to my list.
  192. Link Mauve Dave Cridland, of course.
  193. Tobias alright
  194. Link Mauve Tobias, actually I know this topic quite well, so I’m +1 on 4).
  195. Tobias 4) Date of next
  196. Dave Cridland On #436, I think this needs some security considerations, in particular around replacing and/or removing client-added <x/> stuff.
  197. Link Mauve It does solve the issue.
  198. Dave Cridland Tobias, Is Date Of Next (4) as well?
  199. Tobias 5) Date of next
  200. Dave Cridland Thank heavens for Last Message Correction...
  201. Tobias Dave Cridland, no, it says 5) here ;)
  202. Link Mauve Dave Cridland, :)
  203. moparisthebest any news on xep-368 ? :)
  204. Tobias that would be 2017-03-08, 16:00 UTC
  205. Link Mauve moparisthebest, will vote on list.
  206. Tobias does that work for everybody?
  207. SamWhited Tobias: WFM
  208. daniel yes
  209. Dave Cridland WFM
  210. Link Mauve Tobias, wfm.
  211. Tobias great
  212. Tobias 6) AOB
  213. SamWhited WRT 0368: I think the council voting period is over, doesn't that mean Link Mauve's vote is an implicit +0?
  214. Dave Cridland Yes!
  215. Link Mauve SamWhited, oh. :x
  216. Dave Cridland SamWhited, Voting period ends tomorrow, I *think*?
  217. SamWhited Oh right, it's Tuesday. Sounds good to me.
  218. Dave Cridland SamWhited, I know, it's confused me, too.
  219. Dave Cridland So, my AOB:
  220. daniel fwiw i'm going to vote +1 on #436. i'm not sure why this particular change will require security considerations. i agree that the <x/> element might deserve some. but that's not triggered by that change alone
  221. daniel dave can still -1 if there is something i'm missing
  222. daniel where should we vote for that PR by the way? github?
  223. Dave Cridland Given GSoC, does the Editor team wish to see if there are any complex bits of Editor automation that might be GSoC project ideas? I don't know if they might count, but perhaps discussion between the Editors and the GSoCcer-in-chief (Kev) might resolve that question.
  224. SamWhited Dave Cridland: ♡
  225. Tobias daniel, i'll call for votes next week, then either in the meeting or the minute notes for that meeting
  226. daniel Tobias, ok. thanks
  227. Zash Take the md2xep/xep2md hacks I hacked and make another diff viewer?
  228. Dave Cridland I was thinking, for example, of pre-rendering PRs, maybe re-visting the diffs, and so on.
  229. SamWhited I love this idea; I still want Travis to have a deploy step so I don't have to manually log onto the server and type things wrong and break stuff.
  230. Dave Cridland I do appreciate it's not "normal" GSoC fare, so I'm not sure it counts, but it feels like valuable work to me.
  231. Tobias all sounds sensible, we could probably put a "XSF" project on the GSoC project ideas page and put ideas there, if they have potential mentors
  232. Tobias although keep in mind the project ideas should be enough to fill a GSoC term
  233. Link Mauve Tobias, depending on whether the student is more of a sysadmin type, it may actually take a full term.
  234. Link Mauve But it should have clear goals, set by the student.
  235. SamWhited I think we have plenty of broken stuff or automat-able stuff in the build process to keep an ops-y student busy
  236. SamWhited I can make a list on the wiki somewhere
  237. Tobias great
  238. Tobias Someone having further AOBs?
  239. Link Mauve None from me.
  240. SamWhited Note that all the outstanding LCs end tomorrow again.
  241. SamWhited Just FYI.
  242. Tobias right..will do some reading/voting later today
  243. Tobias seems there's no further AOB
  244. Tobias bangs the gavel
  245. Tobias thanks everybody
  246. Tobias thanks jcbrand for writing up minutes
  247. jere has left
  248. jere has joined
  249. Link Mauve Thanks!
  250. daniel thank you Tobias and jcbrand
  251. Kev Dave Cridland: It's not immediately obvious to me that it's a bad idea, although it does need some work
  252. daniel i'm really not a fan of georgs carbon PR
  253. Kev (it = gsoc editor work)
  254. daniel these rules are way too complex and involve rules for XEPs that are hopefully going to go away soon
  255. Zash I would be happy if the rules for things were simpler. :)
  256. Dave Cridland Kev, Definitely needs some thought. I'm also not clear if "not really development" tasks are within the scope.
  257. Kev "Not development" tasks certainly aren't.
  258. Kev But as long as it's development of tools we use, it seems fair game.
  259. SamWhited daniel: Agreed; I'm not sure every XEP ever written should have its carbons rules defined in the carbons spec anyways. If there needs to be interaction, the other XEP seems like a better place (so when you're implementing, eg. direct MUC invitations, then you can read about and deal with carbons interaction
  260. SamWhited )
  261. Kev Not traditionally the sort of thing the XSF's done in GSoC, but it seems fair game.
  262. Dave Cridland Kev, Indeed. There's plenty of development workload here, mind, but it's not exactly traditional. Might be worth flagging it with Google and getting a feel from them?
  263. daniel SamWhited, yes. or trigger that with simple <copy/> and/or <no-copy/> hints
  264. SamWhited That too
  265. Kev Dave Cridland: I'm comfortable making a call on it once I see an idea fleshed out.
  266. jcbrand minutes have been sent out.
  267. Dave Cridland jcbrand, Can you forward those minutes to standards@ as well, please?
  268. Tobias jcbrand, great council minutes, ta :)
  269. jcbrand Dave Cridland I sent them to council@xmpp.org and standards@xmpp.org
  270. Dave Cridland Oh, I didn't notice. Thanks.
  271. jcbrand It's complicated :)
  272. jcbrand I have to use two different email addresses
  273. SamWhited jcbrand: Thanks again!
  274. jcbrand to send them from
  275. jcbrand You're welcome SamWhited :)
  276. Tobias why that?
  277. jcbrand I use lists<at>opkode.com to subscribe to lists but somewhere on the wiki I gave my normal email address and that got then used to whitelist me for the council email address
  278. jcbrand and also for the XSF members list
  279. jcbrand I thought I'd still get that fixed sometime
  280. jcbrand but ja... just working around it for now
  281. Tobias there's probably some mailman admin that could fix that for you :)
  282. jcbrand Yes, if there's someone here who can help I'd appreciate it, otherwise I'll ask around sometime
  283. Neustradamus has left
  284. Neustradamus has joined
  285. Lance has joined
  286. Tobias has joined
  287. Neustradamus has left
  288. Neustradamus has joined
  289. SamWhited has left
  290. Lance has left
  291. Kev has left
  292. jcbrand has left
  293. Lance has joined
  294. SamWhited has left
  295. jcbrand has left
  296. Lance has left
  297. daniel has left
  298. Lance has joined
  299. Lance has left
  300. Lance has joined
  301. Lance has left
  302. Lance has joined
  303. Lance has left
  304. Lance has joined
  305. Lance has left
  306. Lance has joined
  307. jere has joined
  308. jere has joined
  309. Lance has left
  310. Lance has joined
  311. Lance has left
  312. Lance has joined
  313. SamWhited has left
  314. daniel has left
  315. daniel has joined
  316. jcbrand has joined
  317. jcbrand has left
  318. jayaura has joined
  319. daniel has left
  320. daniel has joined
  321. jcbrand has joined
  322. daniel has left
  323. daniel has joined
  324. jayaura has joined
  325. Lance has left
  326. Lance has joined
  327. daniel has left
  328. jcbrand has left
  329. Lance has left
  330. Tobias has left
  331. Tobias has joined
  332. daniel has joined
  333. jere has left
  334. jere has joined
  335. moparisthebest has joined
  336. Lance has joined
  337. SamWhited has left
  338. SamWhited has joined
  339. SamWhited has joined
  340. jayaura has left
  341. daniel has left
  342. daniel has joined
  343. jayaura has joined
  344. daniel has left