Wednesday, March 22, 2017
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:06:37] <Tobias> SamWhited, I certainly don't see the council as the driving force of XMPP's IoT strategy..but we should certainly try to help our IoT SIG with the XMPP related parts where we can. don't we?
[15:09:34] <SamWhited> Tobias: Sure, I just wanted to make sure someone was actually going to show up if we were going to call a meeting
[15:10:03] <Tobias> I certainly would show up if i'm awake at that time and there are no other conflicts :)
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[15:57:13] <Tobias> SamWhited, does https://trello.com/c/7Ayqtk9T/177-xep-0334-message-processing-hints mean the author wants us to vote on its advancement?
[15:57:38] <Tobias> or vote on issueing an LC for it
[15:57:39] <Tobias> ?
[15:58:38] <SamWhited> It's currently in LC, I don't think it's going to get more feedback so we should vote on advancement (disclaimer: I'm probably going to -1 it)
[15:58:59] <Tobias> ok..
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[15:59:39] <SamWhited> It wasn't really clear to me what to do when the LC was over and feedback had been addressed; I think pointing to a specific version and saying "this one, vote" is correct?
[16:00:27] <Tobias> yeah...
[16:00:39] <Tobias> the council votes on advancing a specific version
[16:01:17] <Kev> Yes, changes can't be made after Council vote and before going to Draft.
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[16:04:39] <Tobias> wop.
[16:04:41] <Tobias> it's about time
[16:04:44] <Tobias> 1) roll call
[16:04:49] <Link Mauve> Hi. o/
[16:04:50] <daniel> here
[16:04:51] <SamWhited> here
[16:05:01] <Tobias> Dave Cridland, ping
[16:05:18] <Dave Cridland> Sorry, here, distracted for obvious reasons.
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[16:05:46] <Tobias> 2) Minute taker
[16:05:58] <Tobias> any volunteers?
[16:06:44] <Tobias> I can write them up again I suppose
[16:06:48] *jonasw can do it, but I haven’t done it before for council meetings.
[16:06:54] <jonasw> and I’m not sure if I am allowed to do it.
[16:06:57] <SamWhited> jonasw: Yey, thanks!
[16:07:03] <Tobias> jonasw, oh sure...thanks
[16:07:11] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, Not only allowed but encouraged.
[16:07:19] <jonasw> great then!
[16:07:29] <Tobias> 3) https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-February/032328.html
[16:07:33] <Tobias> Link Mauve, any news on this one?
[16:08:07] <Link Mauve> None, I just came back from skiing two days ago and didn’t have any time to act on it.
[16:08:24] <Tobias> ah..ok..so i guess not much to discuss on that point then
[16:08:30] <Link Mauve> Yes, sorry. :/
[16:08:32] <Tobias> 4) IEEE IoT
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[16:09:26] <Tobias> I got around replying to Sam's mail and wrote to Rikard so we can setup a XMPP IoT SIG meeting where council members can join and we can together discuss a good IoT strategy for XMPP, on a rather high level
[16:09:35] <Dave Cridland> Sounds good.
[16:10:16] <Tobias> 5) Ge0rG did changes after the last vote started, do we want/need to revote? are these changes major enough? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/436
[16:10:38] <Tobias> https://trello.com/c/wF37u9DJ/169-vote-on-approve-xep-0045-changes-proposed-by-georg is the voting trello card on this
[16:10:50] <Tobias> where nearly everbody voted on, except for Dave Cridland
[16:11:00] <Dave Cridland> I also did.
[16:11:13] <Tobias> great, then it's just not mirrored in the trello
[16:11:27] <Tobias> so i guess no further voting is required on that point, right?
[16:11:33] <Dave Cridland> I voted for (or at least not against).
[16:11:40] <Tobias> good
[16:12:00] <Dave Cridland> I'd note the discussion in the xsf@ room a few days back on adding normative language to existing specs, though.
[16:12:29] <Tobias> 6) Vote on advancing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0334.html Version 0.2 to Draft
[16:12:36] *Tobias will vote on list
[16:12:42] <jonasw> Dave Cridland: mind to give a one-line summary I can quo…te in the minutes?
[16:13:38] <Dave Cridland> jonasw, I think you were there, but it's simply that we need to avoid adding normative requirements to existing specifications, and instead negotiate new features (and encourage their use via compliance specs).
[16:14:15] <jonasw> I was there, and I will link the logs. Just wanted to make sure.
[16:15:18] <Dave Cridland> I think I'm +1 on '334. Though I'm curious as to why Sam's thinking of -1'ing it.
[16:15:54] <SamWhited> I've come to the conclusion that these things should be defined in the XEPs that would use them, eg. <no-copy/> should be defined in carbons. Theoretically they're reusable between similar XEPs, but in practice I think it just means we'll end up with <private/> in carbons and <no-copy/> in hints, and no one is quite sure what the difference is or what to do about it.
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[16:16:41] <SamWhited> Also, I'm not sure how we'd update this in the future if new requirements need new hints; deprecate the draft XEP and start over?
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[16:17:04] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, no-copy isn’t only meant for carbons, and carbons defines both private (for legacy reasons) and no-copy now.
[16:17:07] <SamWhited> Hints most likely need normative language to explain when they should and should not be used and what they mean, so I'm not sure a registry is appropriate (and one doesn't exist anyways)
[16:17:13] <Link Mauve> We voted for that a few weeks ago IIRC.
[16:17:33] <Link Mauve> (In version 0.11.0 fyi.)
[16:17:40] <SamWhited> Link Mauve: Right, and a few weeks ago I was for only having thigns in carbons and not in a separate document.
[16:18:36] <Link Mauve> So, two months ago we vote for making carbons depend on 0334 while keeping its legacy element, and now you are against advancing 0334 because carbons should be the only one using it?
[16:18:38] <Dave Cridland> SamWhited, I thought the idea with hints is that they could not be relied upon; they were advisory only.
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[16:19:13] <SamWhited> Dave Cridland: Yah, but we still probably need language defining where and how they're used, and can't anticipate the need for future hints
[16:19:32] <SamWhited> Eg. "This hint MUST only be included on messages addressed to full JIDs and…" from the XEP.
[16:19:43] <Tobias> True...So this thing would never become Final in a sense
[16:20:05] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, wouldn’t that be worth a new XEP in this case?
[16:20:10] <SamWhited> Link Mauve: I don't recall; if I was for that at the time, I have since changed my mind.
[16:20:33] <Link Mauve> I had been wondering whether to add 0380 to 0334 or not when I first designed it, but opted against for that very reason.
[16:20:34] <SamWhited> Link Mauve: So we end up with "hints part 1: final", "hints part 2: experimental", and add more later?
[16:20:57] <SamWhited> then after hints part 2 becomes final we start on hints part 3 if new use cases arise?
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[16:22:22] <Link Mauve> New hints will (pretty much always) require discovery, and you don’t want to bump the namespace of previous hints that require no changes, so imo a multi-part set of XEPs (not named that way ofc) would make sense.
[16:23:15] <SamWhited> I think it's the only way to do it *if* we have a hints XEP. If the hints just live where they'd be used (eg. MAM, Carbons), then it doesn't matter as much and you'd track them just like every other XEP that has elements that vaguely act as hints.
[16:23:50] <Tobias> can we take the rest of those discussion to the list?
[16:24:17] <SamWhited> Good plan; I'll vote on list before next meeting. In the mean time, feel free to convince me to not -1 :)
[16:24:19] <Tobias> so I suppose the rest will vote on list
[16:24:44] <Tobias> 7) Vote on accepting ProtoXEP: ISR-SASL2 https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/isr-sasl2.html as experimental
[16:24:48] <Tobias> I'll vote on list
[16:25:00] <daniel> me too
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[16:25:03] <Link Mauve> Will also vote on list.
[16:25:34] <Dave Cridland> Needs Section 6 removing, which Flow has agreed to do (I think).
[16:25:40] <Dave Cridland> I also note the namespaced attributes.
[16:26:08] <Dave Cridland> So I'm -1 for *now*, but I think we'll resolve those quickly.
[16:26:16] <SamWhited> I would like to see Flow's rework based on the discussion that happened on list before voting. In its current form, I am not comfortable advocating for even experimental implementations, so -1
[16:26:22] <SamWhited> (long winded way of saying "What Dave said")
[16:27:13] <Tobias> 4) Date of next
[16:27:58] <jonasw> question: what’s the time limit for votes on ProtoXEPs?
[16:27:59] <Tobias> suggestions? I think there'll be a DST change in between for EU people
[16:28:04] <Tobias> jonasw, 2 weeks
[16:28:18] <jonasw> I think ecaps2 is still pending a vote and has reached its 2 weeks time limit
[16:28:26] <Link Mauve> Tobias, haven’t we always been in UTC?
[16:28:31] *SamWhited adds a trello due date… he just discovered (and really likes) Trello due dates.
[16:28:39] <Link Mauve> It was 16Z all along.
[16:29:18] <daniel> 1600Z works for me. and if there is a timezone thing i'll just figure it out when the time comes
[16:29:30] <Tobias> right...then lthat would be 2017-03-29 16:00:00 Z
[16:29:33] <Tobias> *that
[16:29:36] <Link Mauve> WFM.
[16:30:02] <Tobias> er...that 4) should have been 8)
[16:30:04] <Tobias> 9) AOB
[16:30:29] <jonasw> ecaps2?
[16:30:31] <SamWhited> Reminder of pending Votes; there's at least one missing from the clarify CSI/Carbons thing I think
[16:30:45] <SamWhited> Also ecaps2, which expires today
[16:30:58] <SamWhited> The due date is "before I get around to publishing it this after noon"
[16:31:05] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, CSI/Carbons was already vetoed, so no need to wait for the last one imo.
[16:31:23] <SamWhited> oh, right… nevermind.
[16:31:42] <SamWhited> Maybe Tobias really wants to convince us to change ourmind, or just express his support for it? :)
[16:31:57] <Tobias> also dave's vote on georg's change seems to be missing in trello
[16:32:18] <Tobias> SamWhited, huh?
[16:32:25] <Tobias> have I missed something?
[16:32:44] <SamWhited> Tobias: You're the missing vote on CSI/Carbons, but as Link Mauve said, everyone else -1'ed, so it doesn't really matter
[16:33:01] <Tobias> will vote +0 on that, but it doesn't matter as you ssay
[16:33:02] <Tobias> *say
[16:33:23] *Tobias bangs the gavel
[16:33:27] <Tobias> thanks everybody
[16:33:35] <SamWhited> Thanks!
[16:33:37] <Tobias> jonasw, thanks for writing up the minutes
[16:33:48] <Tobias> send them to counci@ and standards@ please
[16:33:51] <Link Mauve> Thank you. :)
[16:33:54] <jonasw> does anyone want to proof-read?
[16:33:58] <Tobias> jonasw, sure
[16:35:48] <jonasw> https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xsf-council-notes
[16:37:20] <Tobias> looks good to me
[16:39:51] <jonasw> sent
[16:41:51] <Tobias> ta
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[17:30:30] *** daniel has joined the room
[17:33:29] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:35:38] *** Flow has left the room
[17:39:33] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:42:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:42:19] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[17:46:31] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[17:46:45] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[17:58:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:08:05] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:15:59] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[18:16:09] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[18:17:18] *** jonasw has left the room
[18:19:03] *** Dave Cridland shows as "online"
[18:33:22] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:33:25] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:37:17] *** Zash shows as "online"
[18:45:40] *** Zash has left the room
[18:46:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:55:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:55:37] *** Lance has left the room
[18:56:57] *** Dave Cridland shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:59:20] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:59:21] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:15:51] *** jonas has joined the room
[19:16:01] *** jonas has left the room
[19:19:43] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:19:47] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:26:13] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:26:14] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:29:30] *** Tobias has left the room
[19:51:48] *** Tobias has left the room
[20:04:38] *** Lance shows as "away"
[20:06:30] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:09:32] *** narcode shows as "online"
[20:10:30] *** Zash shows as "away"
[20:11:02] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:16:29] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:17:16] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:18:14] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:18:55] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[20:19:37] *** Zash shows as "online"
[20:33:03] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[20:35:25] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:42:52] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:42:53] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[21:06:00] *** daniel has left the room
[21:06:14] *** daniel has joined the room
[21:12:47] *** daniel has left the room
[21:12:57] *** daniel has joined the room
[21:14:23] *** narcode shows as "away"
[21:36:01] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[21:41:35] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[21:51:16] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[22:07:19] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:08:14] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:15:05] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:28:56] *** Lance shows as "away"
[22:29:15] *** jere has joined the room
[22:30:52] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:49:51] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:15:05] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[23:16:00] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[23:19:52] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[23:23:09] *** SouL shows as "online"