Wednesday, September 20, 2017
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:53:11] <Dave Cridland> Are we meeting in a few minutes?
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[14:54:47] <Tobias> i think so
[14:54:50] <jonasw> oh it’s wednesday
[14:54:59] <daniel> 👍
[14:56:48] <Tobias> 1) Roll call
[14:56:59] <daniel> here
[14:57:01] <Tobias> SamWhited, daniel, Dave Cridland, Link Mauve, ping
[14:57:14] <SamWhited> I am partially here and will be fully here in a few minutes
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[14:58:57] <Dave Cridland> Tobias: ?
[14:59:10] <Tobias> Dave Cridland, wanted to know whether you are there, for the roll call
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[14:59:43] <Tobias> appears so
[14:59:50] <Tobias> 2) Minute Taker
[15:00:11] <Tobias> any volunteers?
[15:00:36] <Link Mauve> Hi, I’m here too.
[15:00:39] <daniel> i can do it
[15:01:56] <Tobias> jcbrand, or are you available for it?
[15:02:18] <jcbrand> Yes, I'm available
[15:02:35] <jcbrand> Tobias, daniel ^
[15:03:01] <Tobias> thanks
[15:03:37] <Tobias> 3) Vote on accepting "Consistent Color Generation" as Experimental XEP
[15:03:51] <Tobias> I'll vote on list
[15:04:07] <daniel> +1
[15:04:14] <SamWhited> +1
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[15:07:25] <Tobias> 4) Vote on accepting "Jingle Encrypted Transports" as Experimental XEP
[15:07:56] <Tobias> I'll vote on list
[15:07:56] <SamWhited> I wonder if that TODO at the bottom means it's going to be split into separate XEPs, or just separate sections in this XEP? If new XEPs are coming anyways do we want to bother accepting it?
[15:08:27] <Link Mauve> 3) +1
[15:08:40] <jonasw> SamWhited, from my understanding on the mailing list, vanitasvitae said he’d add more XEPs specifying how to use the JET framework with OMEMO etc.
[15:08:42] <Link Mauve> 4) I’ll vote on list.
[15:08:55] <Link Mauve> (I haven’t read it yet.)
[15:09:00] <Link Mauve> (The new version.)
[15:09:12] <jonasw> (but don’t take only my word for it)
[15:09:14] <SamWhited> I'll just be on list then and ask first
[15:09:28] <daniel> on list
[15:09:30] <SamWhited> or double check the discussion
[15:12:14] <Tobias> 5) Discuss removal of Groupchat 1.0 protocol from XEP-0045 ( request by jonasw )
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[15:12:29] <jonasw> I was only proxying that request
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[15:12:47] <jonasw> the original request is from a discussion in the xsf@ MUC, I think dwd was present
[15:12:50] <jonasw> and maybe SAm
[15:13:16] <jonasw> but I can give some details if needed ( Ge0rG can too if he’s around)
[15:14:03] <daniel> jonasw: please do. I don't know what this is about
[15:14:14] <jonasw> okay, will do
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[15:14:31] <jonasw> the origin of the discussion was that currently there’s no way for a client to know whether it’s still joined (think s2s errors and other state desync)
[15:14:36] <jonasw> (no reasonable way that is)
[15:14:45] <jonasw> then there was the suggestion to simply send presence to ensure that one is still joined
[15:15:06] <jonasw> the issue with that is that it could be interpreted as a Groupchat 1.0 join, which would not be desired
[15:15:31] <jonasw> from this originated the suggestion to remove that Groupchat 1.0 protocol entirely
[15:15:46] <jonasw> which would have the advantage that clients are safe against accidental Groupchat 1.0 joins when they desync
[15:15:56] <Tobias> ähm...but just removing it from the XEP without incrementing namespace or so won't allow clients and rooms to apply that logic, will it?
[15:15:58] <jonasw> that’s mostly it I think
[15:16:01] <peter> Are there still clients that support "groupchat 1.0"?
[15:16:15] <jonasw> the argument was that Groupchat 1.0 does *most likely* not exist anymore anyways
[15:16:41] <SamWhited> Personally, I'm fine breaking compatibility with any clients that still support groupchat 1.0.
[15:16:41] <Tobias> ahh
[15:16:45] <Kev> peter: Yes, implicitly.
[15:17:02] *peter nods to Kev
[15:17:08] <Kev> Because the fact that a presence chengae will cause a rejoin after an S2S blip is remarkably useful
[15:17:12] <daniel> groupchat 1.0 join is a presence without the <x/>?
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[15:17:23] <jonasw> daniel, exactly
[15:17:28] <Kev> If you removed that, suddenly lots of people wouldn't be in MUCs when they thought they were.
[15:17:28] <jonasw> Kev, is it? I think it’s not useful
[15:17:34] <jonasw> you’d want to specify the needed history instead
[15:17:36] <Kev> Anyway, this is a hack.
[15:17:48] <Kev> If you want to change xep45 to allow you to know if you're in the room, add an iq to that effect.
[15:17:59] <jonasw> getting a proper error back and then making a proper join with history etc. sounds more reasonable
[15:18:08] <jonasw> Kev, that was also discussed, but is a separate topic
[15:18:26] <Kev> Removing legacy joins is very much the wrong option here, I think.
[15:18:39] <Tobias> alright..do we want to continue that discussion on standard ML?
[15:18:47] <SamWhited> That sounds sensible.
[15:18:48] <Kev> That'd be the appropriate place, I think.
[15:19:05] <Tobias> alright
[15:19:12] <jonasw> good idea
[15:19:52] <peter> FWIW I agree with Kev.
[15:20:29] <Tobias> 6) Consider advancing XEP-0387: XMPP Compliance Suites 2017 to Draft (added by SamWhited )
[15:20:56] <Tobias> Sounds sensible to me, i think we should issue a LC if other draft requirements are met
[15:21:24] <daniel> not sure if this is a blocker but the xmpp compliance suite requires the bookmark xep which can't be implemented right now
[15:21:28] <SamWhited> I would like to start having compliance suites created and advanced by the beginning of the year (eg. 2018 suites would be created and a recommendation by January 1, 2018). I think a sensible place to start trying to do that would be to make sure the 2017 ones are advanced
[15:21:35] <SamWhited> daniel: bookmark can't be implemented?
[15:21:38] <daniel> because it depends on pep functionality that doesn't exist
[15:21:51] <daniel> and which people don't want to have in pep
[15:23:05] <daniel> but it's fine with me if we start a last call on xep387
[15:23:12] <daniel> i can bring this up in the last call
[15:23:21] <Link Mauve> daniel, it could depend on the previous version, which was using 0049.
[15:23:30] <Link Mauve> Which is AFAIK how every client implements it.
[15:23:40] <SamWhited> Sounds good; thanks. I think using pubsub at all for bookmarks is RECOMMENDED, so I'm not sure if it's a problem. We can discuss on list.
[15:23:54] <Ge0rG> Can we get MIX out of 387, then?
[15:24:01] <Tobias> sound sensible then
[15:24:17] <Tobias> so we're all in favour of issuing a LC?
[15:24:22] <SamWhited> MIX has been out of it for a long time (and I still think that was a bad decision, but I did it)
[15:24:33] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, also, why are the compliance suites standards tracks, instead of informational?
[15:24:46] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: ah, thanks. Didn't get that update.
[15:25:19] <SamWhited> Link Mauve: I'm not sure, they include 2119 language?
[15:25:44] <Link Mauve> Hmm…
[15:25:51] <SamWhited> Anyways, +0 for LC (seeing as I'm the author) and we can discuss other things on list unless anyone sees a reason to block that really needs to be discussed now
[15:26:02] <Tobias> alright
[15:28:44] <Tobias> 7) Issue a new LC for XEP-0352: Client State Indication , based on https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/427
[15:29:11] <Tobias> any objections to this?
[15:29:23] <SamWhited> +1 for LC
[15:30:26] <Link Mauve> +1
[15:30:27] <Tobias> i'm also +1
[15:30:49] <daniel> +1
[15:31:32] <Tobias> alright. Let's come to an end as we're already exceeding half an hour.
[15:31:36] <Tobias> 8) Date of next
[15:31:42] <Tobias> Same time next week?
[15:31:51] <daniel> wfm
[15:31:57] <Link Mauve> I won’t be here next week, I’m on vacations.
[15:32:01] <Tobias> wfm
[15:32:03] <SamWhited> wfm
[15:32:06] <Tobias> Link Mauve, happy to vote on list?
[15:32:09] <Link Mauve> Sure. :)
[15:32:12] <Tobias> alright
[15:32:17] <Tobias> 9) AOB
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[15:34:39] <SamWhited> None from me
[15:34:48] <Tobias> great
[15:34:56] *Tobias bangs the gavel
[15:35:01] <Tobias> thanks everybody
[15:35:08] <SamWhited> Good stuff; thanks all!
[15:35:35] <Ge0rG> Thanks council, I'll prepare a longer message regarding GC1 removal and self-pinging.
[15:37:45] <jcbrand> Tobias: Concerning the compliance suite, is it now going directly into Draft or first a LC?
[15:37:56] <Tobias> first LC
[15:37:56] <SamWhited> jcbrand: LC
[15:38:04] <jcbrand> thanks
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[18:03:06] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:04:06] *** daniel has left the room
[18:04:09] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:04:54] *** daniel has left the room
[18:04:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:06:25] *** jcbrand has left the room
[18:08:38] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:08:39] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:09:54] *** daniel has left the room
[18:09:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:15:37] *** daniel has left the room
[18:15:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:15:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:30:57] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:33:03] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:33:29] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:33:49] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:35:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:37:52] *** daniel has left the room
[18:37:57] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:38:05] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:42:31] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:48:05] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:48:20] *** SamWhited has left the room
[18:49:51] *** daniel has left the room
[18:49:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:52:31] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:53:34] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:54:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:56:53] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:59:37] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:02:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:02:48] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:07:19] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:07:40] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:08:44] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:11:15] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:11:44] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:11:58] *** Lance has left the room
[19:18:28] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:18:29] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:19:22] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:35:03] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:35:12] *** SamWhited has left the room
[19:37:30] *** ralphm has left the room
[19:47:03] *** ralphm has joined the room
[19:57:44] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:09:16] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[20:24:23] *** peter has joined the room
[20:33:19] *** peter has left the room
[20:34:03] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[20:38:20] *** ralphm has joined the room
[20:45:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:52:49] *** jere has joined the room
[20:54:50] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:54:51] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:55:28] *** jere has left the room
[20:55:36] *** jere has joined the room
[21:16:45] *** Zash has left the room
[21:23:00] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:28:30] *** jere has left the room
[21:28:36] *** jere has joined the room
[21:33:00] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:45:00] *** daniel has left the room
[21:46:07] *** daniel has left the room
[21:46:13] *** daniel has joined the room
[21:47:34] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:01:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:01:29] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:06:38] *** daniel has left the room
[22:06:41] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:38:18] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:25:37] *** jere has left the room
[23:25:42] *** jere has joined the room
[23:42:56] *** daniel has left the room
[23:43:00] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:50:21] *** daniel has left the room
[23:50:27] *** daniel has joined the room
[23:54:11] *** SamWhited shows as "online"