Wednesday, November 22, 2017
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:19:40] <dwd> Kev, In your iteam capacity, can you do the traditional shuffling of affiliations in this room, please?
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[15:31:58] <Kev> I believe that's now done.
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[15:32:51] <Link Mauve> Thanks. :)
[15:32:56] <dwd> Kev, Thanks.
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[16:25:25] <Kev> I think it's time
[16:25:42] <Ge0rG> Indeed. My WiFi is good right now.
[16:26:04] <Ge0rG> 300ms RTT and less than 40% packet loss.
[16:26:19] <Kev> Who's here?
[16:26:23] <daniel> here
[16:26:25] <Kev> daniel, dwd, SamWhited?
[16:28:27] <dwd> It is time.
[16:28:39] <dwd> But of course I'd failed to set a reminder for this time. :-)
[16:28:45] <SamWhited> I am here.
[16:28:54] <dwd> That's everyone, then.
[16:28:55] <Kev> So, selecting a chair
[16:29:07] <Kev> I'm going to tell Dave to volunteer.
[16:29:10] <Kev> :p
[16:29:22] <Kev> Anyone else want to volunteer?
[16:29:34] <dwd> I'm happy to volunteer.
[16:29:37] <SamWhited> I voluntell Dave as well.
[16:30:18] <Kev> Doesn't sound like anyone else volunteering, so:
[16:30:28] <Kev> 1) Selecting a new chair.
Votes for Dave
[16:30:29] <Kev> +1
[16:30:31] <daniel> +1
[16:30:35] <dwd> +1
[16:30:36] <SamWhited> +1
[16:30:44] <Ge0rG> +1
[16:30:51] <Kev> Congratulations to Dave.
[16:30:57] <dwd> Well, thanks for the honour.
[16:30:58] <Kev> All yours :p
[16:31:10] <dwd> So, my suggested agenda was simply:
[16:31:13] <dwd> * Select a Chair
* Agree a day and time for meetings
* Agree about agenda mechanics (like if we're using Trello, when the
deadline for items to be added is, etc).
[16:31:26] <dwd> We've done the first, so we can move onto the second.
[16:31:57] <dwd> When's a good time for everyone? I imagine that the overlap between Ge0rG / daniel and SamWhited is the deciding factor.
[16:32:11] <dwd> It doesn't have to be Wednesdays either, of course.
[16:32:27] <Kev> My preference would be Wednesdays at 16:00 UK time.
[16:32:34] <Ge0rG> 1600-1700 UTC is good for me, DST-anchored in whatever local timezone
[16:32:44] <SamWhited> This is a good time for me, although I will be pulled into a meeting in ~20 minutes (but it's normally a short one)
[16:32:45] <Kev> And that we explicitly go back to DST-anchoring on the UK.
[16:33:19] <dwd> SamWhited, Does a half-hour earlier work for you, or would you prefer the *:30?
[16:33:55] <SamWhited> A half hour earlier would make it less likely that I get pulled away if that works for everyone else
[16:34:18] <dwd> FWIW, I prefer local-time anchoring, but I'm happy to be flexible during the US/EU change overlap.
[16:34:43] <SamWhited> So 1600 UK time?
[16:35:00] <dwd> I think that's the proposal.
[16:35:01] <dwd> Votes?
[16:35:04] <SamWhited> +1
[16:35:05] <Ge0rG> +1
[16:35:06] <daniel> +1
[16:35:13] <dwd> +1
[16:35:22] <Kev> +1
[16:35:27] <dwd> Carried.
[16:36:01] <dwd> So, final item - mechanics. I'm fine with Trello personally, but I'd like to "fix" and publish an agenda about 24 hours before the meeting.
[16:36:31] <dwd> Does that work for people, or does anyone have any suggestions?
[16:36:59] <Kev> I'm in favour of publishing. I don't have huge feelings about fixing, but do note that we used to have lots of last-minute submission of protoXEPs so they could be voted on in Council. Which may or may not be a factor.
[16:37:20] <Kev> So I'm happy to just go along with Chair on this.
[16:37:22] <daniel> I'm 'OK' with trello but I feel like last year we didn't actually use trello to its potential and just any text editor thingy would have been able to do the same job
[16:37:32] <SamWhited> Let's just add to the Trello TODO column and let the chair decide where to stop (depending on how long the meeting is going, whether it existed 24 hours before hand, etc.)
[16:37:56] <daniel> What im trying to say is that if we move that to the wiki or something we don't require people to create and account with trello
[16:38:07] <SamWhited> Just on the wiki
[16:38:26] <SamWhited> Which is generally harder to get an account for
[16:38:52] <dwd> Kev, Do you still have agendabot somewhere?
[16:38:58] <Kev> Well, Trello's just for the chair really, Dave gets to then transfer that to agendums.
[16:39:15] <Kev> I don't, but I'm sure it couldn't be that hard to write a new one if we particularly wanted.
[16:39:53] <dwd> Well, we'll go with Trello, but I'm absolutely fine with adding things on myself if people mail them to me or whatever.
[16:40:32] <dwd> And I'll add a column for "Next meeting agenda", and send the result to the list before the meeting.
[16:40:36] <dwd> Sound good?
[16:40:36] <Ge0rG> We've fixed the wiki account creation process, BTW
[16:40:56] <Kev> WFM
[16:41:03] <SamWhited> Sounds good
[16:41:22] <dwd> OK, cool. We'll try this and see how it works out.
[16:41:41] <Ge0rG> +1
[16:41:43] <dwd> I think that puts us onto AOB?
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[16:42:19] <SamWhited> There is at least one outstanding vote on a previous item by someone who is no longer on the council. Do they still have an opportunity to vote, or do we re-vote?
[16:42:33] <SamWhited> (vote by Tobias on moving 0387 to Draft)
[16:42:47] <dwd> I believe we have traditionally revoted on pending decisions by a previous Council.
[16:43:11] <Kev> That's certainly required on an open LC or whatever.
[16:43:17] <SamWhited> Sounds good; I'll move it back to TODO.
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[16:44:06] <dwd> We'll also need to find a few minute-taker volunteers - I'll put out a call for volunteers on the members@ list unless anyone objects.
[16:44:18] <SamWhited> Unless jonasw is still willing?
[16:44:33] <dwd> SamWhited, Even if. He's great, but I imagine he'd like some help.
[16:44:40] <SamWhited> *nods*
[16:44:54] <dwd> Anyone have anything else?
[16:45:00] <Kev> I still have a preference for the chair writing minutes because I think it avoids confusion, but ... yeah.
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[16:45:37] <Kev> No AOB here.
[16:45:47] <dwd> I see none.
[16:45:56] <Ge0rG> It would be good to ask the minute taker to add the reason for -1 votes into the minutes. That's something I missed the one time I did them.
[16:46:25] <dwd> So our next meeting will be 1600 UTC on 2017-11-19.
[16:46:27] <SamWhited> That sounds like a lot of work; minutes should be short and easy to get a quick overview of what happened. If people want more context, we have logs.</opinion>
[16:46:39] <daniel> do we? :-)
[16:46:45] <Kev> Ge0rG: Policy in the past has been that anyone vetoing had to mail standards@ with justification for the veto, and what is needed to remove it.
[16:46:50] <Ge0rG> dwd: 2017-11-19 is in the past. I'm sure you mean 2017-11-29.
[16:46:52] <Kev> And I strongly encourage us to continue that.
[16:47:01] <dwd> Ge0rG, Yes, I did, and mis-typed, thanks.
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[16:47:03] <Ge0rG> Kev: ah, well.
[16:47:07] <daniel> oh logs are working again
[16:47:08] <SamWhited> That sounds sensible; I don't think we did that last time. I will start doing that if a veto is used.
[16:47:18] <dwd> Kev, Yeah, I think that's a sensible policy.
[16:47:19] <Kev> Vetos should be a rarely-used thing, really.
[16:47:40] <Kev> At least for accepting to Experimental.
[16:47:42] <dwd> Ite, Meeting Est.
[16:47:50] <Link Mauve> “16:51:26 dwd> So our next meeting will be 1600 UTC on 2017-11-19.”, technically, 1600 GMT.
[16:47:50] <dwd> (But do feel free to continue chatting).
[16:47:56] <SamWhited> Thanks all!
[16:48:12] <Kev> Thanks all.
[16:48:37] <dwd> Link Mauve, I'm giving UTC times to avoid confusion. When we shift relative to UTC, I'll continue to do so even if the meeting is pegged against EU Local.
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[16:49:13] <dwd> Kev, I've actually found an external person taking the minutes interesting because of what they feel the need to clarify within the meeting.
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[16:49:15] <Ge0rG> when will be the next change in EU local time change?
[16:49:16] <Link Mauve> I will also try to be there for minutes.
[16:49:44] <SamWhited> Link Mauve: Thanks! It'll be good to still have you around
[16:49:45] <dwd> Kev, Which suggests that the logs aren't always enough.
[16:49:50] <Ge0rG> I like the idea of an external minute taker as well.
[16:49:54] <dwd> Link Mauve, That would be hugely appreciated.
[16:49:59] <Kev> dwd: There's merit in that. I just think the Chair remembering they have to write minutes helps ensure things run to plan. YMMV.
[16:50:14] <dwd> Kev, Yes, that's true.
[16:50:20] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, of course I will, I’m still as interested as before in council matters. :)
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[16:50:31] <Kev> If the Chair can't write minutes from the logs, that means stuff wasn't clear during the meeting, and the Chair should have sorted it out :)
[16:51:04] <Ge0rG> Will the next meeting cover all the pending votes, like ODR?
[16:51:16] <SamWhited> That's why I like to take logs live; if I do it after the fact I only find out that something needed clarification after everyone left.
[16:54:41] <Kev> I used to mentally write the notes during meetings, but often didn't bother actually typing them until after.
[16:55:04] <Kev> Unlike when I used to chair meetings at work, many years ago, and would write the minutes (complete with who said what) before the meeting.
[16:55:22] <SamWhited> You must be the best boss.
[16:55:38] <SamWhited> (our meetings always end up being a bit unfocused; wish we had minutes before hand)
[16:55:46] <Kev> I wasn't anyone's boss back then. Just that the meetings were hugely predictable.
[16:55:59] <Kev> I used to print out the minutes, take them in with me, and just annotate wherever we deviated.
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[16:56:29] <Ge0rG> Kev: did you always print out the same base meeting minutes document, or did you really prepare each time?
[16:56:42] <Kev> I really prepared each item.
[16:57:16] <Kev> *time
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[18:12:33] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:15:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:15:03] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:20:26] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:21:44] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:23:02] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:23:03] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:23:25] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[18:24:17] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:25:12] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:26:10] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:28:30] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:31:33] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[18:31:53] *** Kev has left the room
[18:31:54] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:43:38] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[18:46:15] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:56:38] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[18:57:48] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:01:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:02:38] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:03:44] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:03:44] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:04:10] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:04:38] *** Kev has left the room
[19:05:18] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:05:18] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:06:57] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:12:35] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:13:24] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[19:13:51] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:18:34] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:19:42] *** Kev has left the room
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[19:22:28] *** dwd shows as "online"
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[19:41:00] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[19:41:31] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[20:00:37] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[20:03:13] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[20:22:35] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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[21:00:31] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[21:06:15] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[21:10:09] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:14:29] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:15:24] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:16:31] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:20:56] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:21:17] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:22:19] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:24:17] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:25:55] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[21:29:45] *** vanitasvitae shows as "away" and his status message is " (Abwesend wegen Untätigkeit für mehr als 5 Minuten)"
[21:29:45] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:29:59] *** daniel has left the room
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[21:30:38] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:30:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[21:38:05] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[21:58:53] *** ralphm shows as "online"
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[22:02:43] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:10:40] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[22:10:52] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[22:10:52] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:14:37] *** Kev shows as "online"
[22:18:13] *** Zash has left the room
[22:30:28] *** jere has left the room
[22:30:34] *** jere has joined the room
[22:45:04] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[22:51:04] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:51:05] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:53:40] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[22:53:43] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:04:51] *** pep. has left the room
[23:05:00] *** pep. shows as "online"
[23:05:04] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:15:04] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:21:16] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:29:10] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[23:49:12] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:50:51] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"