Wednesday, November 29, 2017
council@muc.xmpp.org
November
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
    1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
     
             
XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

[00:03:58] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[00:04:15] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[00:05:34] *** genofire shows as "online"
[00:14:12] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:17:22] *** genofire shows as "online"
[00:43:08] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[00:53:08] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[01:02:16] *** genofire shows as "online"
[01:05:31] *** peter shows as "online"
[01:15:22] *** ralphm has left the room
[01:15:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[01:24:19] *** daniel has left the room
[01:24:25] *** daniel has joined the room
[01:24:52] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[01:35:10] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:38:38] *** genofire shows as "online"
[01:43:55] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[01:44:46] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[01:48:11] *** peter has left the room
[01:53:54] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[02:00:00] *** genofire shows as "online"
[02:20:51] *** Kev shows as "away"
[02:20:52] *** Kev shows as "away"
[02:32:20] *** Kev has left the room
[02:56:32] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[02:59:23] *** jere has joined the room
[03:06:32] *** genofire shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[03:12:02] *** genofire shows as "online"
[03:48:38] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[03:52:36] *** genofire shows as "online"
[04:07:01] *** jere has joined the room
[05:05:22] *** Tobias has joined the room
[05:50:22] *** Tobias has left the room
[05:50:35] *** Tobias has joined the room
[06:06:50] *** Zash has left the room
[06:07:05] *** Zash has joined the room
[06:07:05] *** Zash shows as "online"
[06:14:08] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[06:14:14] *** genofire shows as "online"
[06:38:22] *** SamWhited has left the room
[06:40:50] *** ralphm has left the room
[06:43:37] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[07:08:09] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:13:27] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:13:34] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:32:36] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[07:35:25] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[07:37:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
[07:37:38] *** genofire shows as "online"
[07:38:39] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[07:43:15] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:00:31] *** pep. has joined the room
[08:09:35] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:09:35] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[08:19:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:29:05] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:29:42] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:41:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:46:05] *** daniel has left the room
[08:46:13] *** daniel has joined the room
[08:46:22] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:53:24] *** genofire shows as "online"
[08:57:51] *** ralphm has left the room
[08:58:07] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[08:58:38] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[08:59:41] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[09:01:16] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[09:01:58] *** jonasw has left the room
[09:06:10] *** genofire shows as "online"
[09:08:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:08:53] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[09:11:40] *** daniel has left the room
[09:11:48] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:12:17] *** SouL has left the room
[09:15:19] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[09:20:41] *** ralphm has left the room
[09:35:18] *** Syndace has left the room
[09:35:21] *** Syndace has joined the room
[09:36:40] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[09:40:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[09:41:00] *** genofire shows as "online"
[09:41:54] *** daniel has left the room
[09:42:30] *** daniel shows as "online"
[09:48:06] *** ralphm has left the room
[10:00:08] *** daniel has left the room
[10:00:11] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:02:06] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:04:16] *** jcbrand has joined the room
[10:09:38] *** genofire shows as "online"
[10:09:49] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[10:10:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:11:06] *** genofire has left the room
[10:13:40] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:18:36] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:20:00] *** genofire shows as "online"
[10:26:45] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:28:59] *** daniel has left the room
[10:29:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:34:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:36:45] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[10:38:27] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[10:40:45] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[10:43:32] *** genofire shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[10:46:30] *** genofire shows as "online"
[11:01:59] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[11:02:23] *** Zash has left the room
[11:03:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:08:25] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:08:27] *** daniel has left the room
[11:08:32] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:09:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:17:12] *** genofire has left the room
[11:23:13] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[11:25:03] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[11:25:05] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[11:31:45] *** ralphm has left the room
[11:38:56] *** Ge0rG has joined the room
[11:39:07] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: from your XEP-0095 trello card, is "none of them supports SI but does not support Jingle" a typo?
[11:41:06] *** daniel has left the room
[11:41:14] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:46:19] *** daniel has left the room
[11:52:05] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[11:54:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[12:01:06] *** ralphm has left the room
[12:03:25] *** daniel shows as "online"
[12:25:51] *** jere has left the room
[12:48:41] *** pep. shows as "online"
[12:58:42] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[13:00:06] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:01:53] *** Zash has joined the room
[13:02:04] *** Zash has left the room
[13:04:45] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:13:12] *** daniel has left the room
[13:14:51] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[13:15:44] *** Zash has joined the room
[13:15:47] *** Zash shows as "online"
[13:17:14] *** daniel has left the room
[13:17:18] *** daniel has joined the room
[13:25:15] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:33:19] *** ralphm has left the room
[13:38:12] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[13:38:13] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[13:41:29] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[13:41:32] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: I don't think so? I meant "none of them support only SI"
[13:42:44] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: ah, it just took me multiple attempts to parse that sentence
[13:43:58] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[13:45:15] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[13:51:38] <SamWhited> Yah, sorry, in retrospect that was very poorly worded
[13:52:39] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: feel free to change ;)
[13:55:28] *** jere has joined the room
[14:04:57] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[14:05:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:08:51] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:13:44] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:14:45] *** Kev has left the room
[14:15:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:16:36] *** Guus has joined the room
[14:17:10] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:19:19] <Guus> New councileers, kindly supply me (via PR, mail, IM, carrier pidgeon) with a short bio for the website. To avoid procrastination, please take two minutes to come up with two or three lines of text describing yourself when you read this. I'd be happy to modify the website on your behalf - just send me the raw text.
[14:22:01] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:24:02] <Ge0rG> I'm not original enough to come up with something that's sufficiently different from Daniel's bio :(
[14:25:13] <Guus> It doesn't have to be sufficinetly different.
[14:25:18] <Guus> as long as it describes you.
[14:25:41] <Guus> basically: what's your name, what do you do for a living, what nice XMPP affiliations do you have?
[14:26:02] <mathieui> Guus, say you’re a grumpy person that wants to make xmpp easier
[14:26:12] *** daniel has left the room
[14:26:13] <jonasw> itym Ge0rG
[14:26:19] <Guus> I'm a grumpy person tath wants to make xmpp easier.
[14:26:20] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:26:35] <mathieui> damn, I meant Ge0rG
[14:26:41] <Guus> :)
[14:27:17] <Zash> We are all grumpy and wishing to improve XMPP on this blessed day.
[14:27:34] <Ge0rG> Zash: you need more coffee
[14:28:26] <Holger> Maybe you could ask zinid to write your bios :-)
[14:28:47] <jonasw> lol
[14:28:53] <mathieui> lol
[14:28:56] <Ge0rG> Holger: Russian cursing would make me blush
[14:29:21] <jonasw> I wouldn’t recognize it.
[14:29:46] <Guus> Oh, come on. "Georg Lukas is a <whatdoyoudoforaliving>. Active since <date> within the XMPP community, he's the author of <name same XEPS>"
[14:29:47] *Ge0rG is a full-time [IT security consultant](https://rt-solutions.de/en/home-2/), a vocal advocate of [Easy XMPP](https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Easy_XMPP), the project janitor of [yaxim](https://yaxim.org) and the operator of the [public yax.im server](https://yaxim.org/yax.im/).
[14:29:48] <Ge0rG> Guus: ^
[14:29:52] <Guus> aweesome :)
[14:30:31] <Ge0rG> "He is also the one eternally blocking XEP-0280 because the rules are too vague."
[14:30:50] <jonasw> he didn’t go for my suggestion, pity :)
[14:31:19] <jonasw> I’d like to note that others do not have links to non-XMPP sites in their bios.
[14:31:51] <Guus> Who's out? Daniel?
[14:32:02] <Guus> Tobi too, right?
[14:32:09] <Ge0rG> jonasw: valid point. I saw a link to an employer and considered that valid, but of course it was a company working in XMPP
[14:32:33] <jonasw> Daniel is still in, Emmanuel Gil Peyrot is out
[14:32:41] <jonasw> but Kevin is back
[14:32:47] <Guus> ok, tx
[14:32:59] <jonasw> you could just look at the members page somebody helpfully updated ;-)
[14:33:37] *** daniel has left the room
[14:33:47] *** daniel shows as "online"
[14:34:11] <Guus> https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/386
[14:34:30] <Guus> jonasw: you caught me being lazy :)
[14:34:46] <Guus> I wonder if we have an old bio for Kev somehwere
[14:35:57] *** Kev has joined the room
[14:35:58] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:36:54] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[14:37:26] <jonasw> Guus, git show aad70e88511b1ce523a09ea64070fceb5c8b147f
[14:38:01] <Guus> yup, just found that
[14:38:05] <Guus> filling in the missing links now
[14:38:19] <jonasw> I’d ask Kev beforehands though, to make sure everything is up-to-date :)
[14:38:20] <Guus> unless Kev has another text in midn
[14:38:31] <Guus> (I stripped the first sentence)
[14:40:10] <Guus> __Kevin Smith__ works at [Isode](http://isode.com) where he’s responsible for the [M-Link server](http://www.isode.com/products/m-link.html), other XMPP projects and work on the open-source [Swift](https://swift.im/) XMPP client. He was formerly the project leader on [Psi](http://psi-im.org/). Kevin is also the author of several [XMPP extensions](/extensions) and co-authored [XMPP: The Definitive Guide](http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596521271.do).
[14:40:36] <jonasw> isode has HTTPS now
[14:40:47] <Ge0rG> I like how the only things staying in my linediff are "https://", "and" and "the"
[14:41:04] <Kev> If you're suggesting text for my Council bio, that looks good to me (that's my stuff from last time, right?).
[14:41:34] <Guus> I've updated https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/386
[14:42:18] <Guus> Kev, yes. I left out the part referencing your past roles (as you were chair then, not sure if you are now)
[14:42:18] <jonasw> Guus, HTTPS the isode links and I thnik we’re good to go
[14:42:45] <Guus> jonasw: did you check if they worked? One link (I thnk psy) didn't.
[14:42:51] <jonasw> I did
[14:42:58] <Kev> I'm not chair now, no.
[14:43:01] <jonasw> (which is why I only mentioned "isode" :))
[14:43:20] <Guus> thanks :)
[14:43:43] <Kev> Thanks both.
[14:44:02] <jonasw> hit the large green button
[14:44:14] <Guus> Some checks haven’t completed yet

[14:44:26] <jonasw> right
[14:44:52] <jonasw> hm, I miss a "merge when checks complete" button, I think gitlab has that
[14:44:55] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[14:45:10] <Guus> I think I can simply merge
[14:45:24] <Guus> but it'd be nice to merge only if the checks are ok
[14:46:14] <Guus> done
[14:46:14] <Ge0rG> [Merge automatically at the least sensible moment]
[14:46:16] <Guus> thanks all.
[14:46:39] <Guus> You have now beat last years board by approximately 48 weeks. :)
[14:46:51] <mathieui> impressive
[14:46:54] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:47:40] <jonasw> in last years boards defense: they didn’t have such a keen SCAM/PR team leader :-)
[14:47:50] <jonasw> (at the beginning of their term)
[14:50:01] <Ge0rG> That the SCAM/PR team has been established is also partially in the responsibility of the old Board ;)
[14:55:01] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:58:36] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:03:57] *** daniel has left the room
[15:04:03] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:11:50] *** genofire has joined the room
[15:17:32] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:18:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:19:38] *** peter has joined the room
[15:31:22] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:31:36] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[15:32:26] *** ralphm has left the room
[15:33:04] *** dwd has joined the room
[15:34:22] *** peter shows as "online"
[15:34:49] <jcbrand> Hi folks. I can't be in the meeting today, but I can take minutes afterwards by reading the chat logs.
[15:35:01] <jcbrand> Tobias ^
[15:35:36] *** daniel has left the room
[15:35:39] *** daniel shows as "online"
[15:36:11] <Kev> jcbrand: dwd's the chair :)
[15:36:32] <jcbrand> Thanks Kev
[15:36:35] <jcbrand> dwd ^^^
[15:44:50] *** genofire has joined the room
[15:48:08] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[15:48:52] <dwd> jcbrand, If you're happy to do that, that'd be great.
[15:49:19] <jonasw> if the meeting will be at 16:00Z, I now know that I can do it too
[15:49:32] <jonasw> (that is, in six minutes or so)
[15:49:37] <jcbrand> the meeting of the minutes?
[15:49:42] <jcbrand> s/of/or
[15:49:43] <Ge0rG> ETA -5min, yeah.
[15:49:47] <jonasw> jcbrand, the meeting
[15:49:57] <jonasw> but do the minutes, yes
[15:49:57] <jcbrand> ok, I'll do the minutes then dwd
[15:49:59] <jonasw> ehh
[15:50:07] <jonasw> confusion
[15:50:10] <jcbrand> yes
[15:50:11] <jcbrand> :)
[15:50:20] <jonasw> I mean I can do the minutes live today, if that helps.
[15:50:25] <jcbrand> You're welcome to do them if you want to jonasw, or if you think it's more efficient
[15:50:34] *** peter has left the room
[15:50:43] <jonasw> I don’t know if it’s more efficient, but I’m certainly around and plan to follow the meeting anyways
[15:50:47] <SamWhited> Thanks! Live is good (IMO) since it means context doesn't get lost and you can ask for clarification if needed.
[15:51:01] <jcbrand> ok, let's do it live!
[15:51:13] <dwd> jonasw, Oh, even better.
[15:51:20] <jonasw> it’s settled then
[15:51:22] <jcbrand> thanks jonasw
[15:51:25] <Kev> Time for me to grab a water and get ready for the show, I guess.
[15:51:51] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:51:56] <dwd> Indeed: Kev, SamWhited, daniel, Ge0rG - 5 minute warning.
[15:52:00] <dwd> Well, three now.
[15:52:34] <SamWhited> Thank you 3
[15:52:34] *** peter has joined the room
[15:52:59] *peter waves
[15:53:13] <SamWhited> o/
[15:55:08] <dwd> OK.
[15:55:11] *** jcbrand has left the room
[15:55:23] <Kev> 'tis time.
[15:55:24] <dwd> I call this meeting to session, then. (says he, grandly)
[15:55:27] <daniel> Hi
[15:55:32] <dwd> 1) Role Call:
[15:55:34] <jonasw> ("'tis time", the harpie cries?)
[15:55:54] <dwd> I see daniel, Kev, SamWhited - do we have a Ge0rG?
[15:55:56] <Kev> I be here.
[15:56:05] <Ge0rG> 👋
[15:56:20] <dwd> SamWhited, You *are* still here right?
[15:56:23] <SamWhited> Indeed
[15:56:28] <dwd> Ace. Full house.
[15:56:52] <dwd> So, items for a vote:
[15:57:09] <dwd> 1) XEP-0387, vote to mvoe to Draft.
[15:57:16] <SamWhited> +1
[15:57:24] <SamWhited> (naturally)
[15:57:28] <daniel> +1
[15:57:42] *** genofire shows as "online"
[15:57:46] <dwd> I note that Kev thought we should restart the Last Call, but I believe that ended and I'm not convinced we need to revisit it.
[15:57:57] <Kev> Depends if we much care about process.
[15:58:11] <Ge0rG> +1 (I'm still against having Avatars in IM Core, but only because I'm a lazy client developer)
[15:58:13] <jonasw> technically the LC ended before the council changeover, at least according to the announcement made by the editor.
[15:58:43] <Kev> jonasw: There was no advancement, though, so it resets if we do things properly.
[15:58:46] <jonasw> I see
[15:59:03] <Kev> Anyway, I don't much care one way or the other, but I'll on-list if this is an advancement vote rather than LC.
[15:59:06] <dwd> Kev, Well, I do. But it's not clear to me that we would be following process by repeating a last call. It's surely in Proposed state, now?
[15:59:08] <jonasw> I don’t see a logical reason why council would be forced to re-start a last call; I wouldn’t expect new input just because council switched.
[15:59:52] <Kev> I'll on-list, then.
[16:00:04] <dwd> Kev, OK.
[16:00:10] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[16:00:11] <dwd> I'm happy to +1 it, anyway.
[16:00:17] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:00:33] <Ge0rG> I'm +1 with either re-LC or advance, with a preference to the latter.
[16:00:54] <dwd> 2) Vote on deprecating XEP-0095 (note incorrect XEP number in agenda, sorry).
[16:01:17] <dwd> SamWhited wrote up some findings on deployment in the Trello card, if anyone's not noticed.
[16:01:20] <SamWhited> So I went through a list of clients (see the trello issue) last night looking for support for this
[16:01:31] <SamWhited> I did not find any client that supported SI alone
[16:01:39] <SamWhited> They all supported neither, Jingle, or Jingle and SI
[16:01:40] <Kev> I note that this is presumably deprecation in favour of 234, which is still Experimental, in case we care (I don't, immediately, I think).
[16:02:06] <daniel> SamWhited, i think there are some clients that only do SI
[16:02:13] <dwd> Is it worth Last Calling Jingle FT, then?
[16:02:13] <Ge0rG> Are there any technical reasons to favor 95 over 234? Complexity of implementation? Number of roundtrips?
[16:02:24] <daniel> but i'm unprepared and didn't research this
[16:02:46] <SamWhited> I checked quite a few popular ones and didn't find any, but I'm sure at least one or two old clients exist
[16:02:53] <Ge0rG> I haven't implemented either (as Sam rightfully pointed out in trello), so it's hard to decide right now.
[16:02:55] <Kev> I think an LC on 234 might be useful in informing deprecation of 95/96. Which isn't to say that I'm gating approval of deprecation on advancement.
[16:02:59] <daniel> Ge0rG, i think you can't fall back to ibb in SI
[16:03:23] <daniel> and the receiver can't suggest proxies
[16:03:41] <Ge0rG> daniel: is IBB still relevant in practice? Or is HTTP-Upload the new file transfer?
[16:04:07] <daniel> i'm just pointing out the differences between si and jingle
[16:04:10] <Kev> HTTP-Upload certainly can't replace the case where you need to fallback to IBB because you're crossing boundaries.
[16:04:12] <SamWhited> I do think it makes sense to consider pushing Jingle forward as well, but it seems clear to me that SI is functionally deprecated (Pidgin and Gajim both do Jingle, which is probably the vast majority of users), so we might as well recommend one thing IMO.
[16:04:34] <daniel> pidgin does jingle? file transfer!?
[16:04:35] <Kev> SamWhited: I agree, I just think we may as well wait a couple of weeks and see what LC on 234 comes up with.
[16:04:51] <SamWhited> daniel: it looked like it from browsing their source code, but I could be wrong
[16:05:09] <Kev> Equally, I don't object to deprecating 95/96 and LCing 234 concurrently, if that's what the general feeling is for.
[16:05:23] <SamWhited> Kev: I don't think we're in any rush, but I also think they're completely orthogonal and am generally for deprecating old things that look like recommendations but which aren't good for compatibility
[16:05:50] <SamWhited> I hadn't considered LCing 234, but I would also be for doing that as part of this if it's something people want.
[16:06:05] <Kev> LCs are cheap, and generally the best way to bring out feedback.
[16:06:11] <SamWhited> Indeed
[16:06:24] <Ge0rG> Kev: do you know of any practical use cases for IBB?
[16:06:43] <Ge0rG> Is there a way to have an LC for deprecating an XEP?
[16:06:59] <Ge0rG> Or can we piggy-back the deprecation warning of 95 on the 234-LC?
[16:07:00] <Kev> We can send out a mail, sure.
[16:07:09] <dwd> Ge0rG, I do - when crossing very tight network boundaries, there's a preference to having everything within a single TCP stream.
[16:07:10] <Kev> We can also un-deprecate if we've made a mistake.
[16:07:33] <Kev> So, meh, +1 on deprecating 95/96 and also on the AOB to LC 234 :)
[16:07:45] <SamWhited> I don't really see the point in seeking feedback on deprecation; that's why we're the council, to make recommenations, although in this case I think we're documenting what the community has decided, not really changing anything.
[16:08:03] *** daniel has left the room
[16:08:03] <daniel> +1 on deprecating SI
[16:08:07] <Ge0rG> daniel: 234 mandates IBB as a MUST have feature
[16:08:12] <Ge0rG> +1 on deprecating
[16:08:21] <Ge0rG> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0234.html#impl-mti
[16:08:28] <daniel> Ge0rG, ?
[16:08:28] <dwd> Yes, I think +1 on deprecating both and a LC. Which I'll come to later.
[16:08:31] <SamWhited> +1 on deprecating 95/96 and to LC
[16:08:39] *** daniel shows as "online"
[16:09:01] <dwd> OK. Unanimous on deprecating '95.
[16:09:21] <dwd> 3) ... and XEP-0096?
[16:09:23] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[16:09:23] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[16:09:27] <Ge0rG> +1 on deprecating
[16:09:31] <Kev> ^
[16:09:33] <dwd> I think we're all +1 there, but speak now if not.
[16:09:33] <SamWhited> oops, was getting ahead of myself…
[16:09:34] <daniel> +1
[16:09:35] <SamWhited> +1 to that too
[16:09:58] <dwd> And because I'm doing this out of the agenda order:
[16:10:18] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:10:18] <dwd> 4) Issue Last Call for XEP-0363 for advancement to Draft:
[16:10:31] <SamWhited> +1
[16:10:40] <Kev> +1 (which isn't to say I won't have feedback onlist)
[16:10:40] <daniel> +1
[16:10:46] <dwd> +1
[16:11:08] <dwd> Ge0rG, ?
[16:12:01] <Ge0rG> +1 for LC
[16:12:10] <dwd> Great, thanks.
[16:12:11] <Ge0rG> I've already written a comment re 363 to standards@ yesterday
[16:12:23] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:12:38] <dwd> 5) Trello Triage
[16:13:00] <dwd> Folks, if you look at the "Proposed Agendums" column, you'lkl notice two things.
[16:13:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:13:20] <dwd> Firstly, the plural of agendums is agenda, and that irritates me every time I see it. :-)
[16:13:46] <Kev> Please don't remove that bit of history.
[16:13:49] <dwd> Secondly, there's a lot of stuff here and much of it has been there a long time.
[16:14:08] <dwd> Kev, I have a keen sense of tradition as well as Latin grammar.
[16:14:34] <daniel> dwd, i think you can remove 280 and odr
[16:14:38] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[16:15:02] <daniel> oh for the 280 we wanted to ask Ge0rG for permission :-)
[16:15:08] <Kev> It's neither tradition or grammar, it's a reference to an old Council discussion, between me and Peter IIRC, about the singular of Agenda. It's terribly important for culture's sake :)
[16:15:26] <Kev> I think Datums may also have been involved.
[16:15:29] <Ge0rG> -1 on whatever you want to do to 280
[16:15:34] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[16:15:46] <daniel> Ge0rG, removing it from the agenda
[16:15:58] <dwd> Ge0rG, Well, I wanted to do nothing. So what should we do now you've vetod that?
[16:16:10] <SamWhited> I guess we have to do something to 0280?
[16:16:17] <jonasw> ( Kev, maybe add "[sic!]" to the column then, so that at least everybody knows that there’s some good story to know :))
[16:16:24] <Kev> 280 should go from our Agenda.
[16:16:27] <Ge0rG> dwd: there is a pending PR with "improved" rule wording. Merge it?
[16:17:14] <daniel> i just noticed 280 is on the agenda twice
[16:17:17] <dwd> Ge0rG, Is there consensus to?
[16:17:21] <Ge0rG> dwd: of course not
[16:17:32] <SamWhited> That was closed since Kev was going to work on a document WRT new routing rules
[16:17:48] <SamWhited> There is no longer a PR matching that agenda item, so it should go
[16:18:20] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:18:23] <Ge0rG> I've also investigated the current and potential routing rules extensively, and updated my slides at https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf accordingly.
[16:18:27] <jonasw> cf. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/434#issuecomment-344918631
[16:18:29] <dwd> OK. Moving on, then, in the absence of agreement.
[16:18:42] <Ge0rG> I still can't promise I will make it to the Summit, but maybe I can tele-present it.
[16:18:52] <Ge0rG> And I think it doesn't make sense to move on with 280 or 313 before that.
[16:19:02] <dwd> I see '186 and '352 are both out of last call but not advanced.
[16:19:20] <dwd> Ge0rG, I mean, I'm moving on with the meeting.
[16:19:26] <SamWhited> 0168 was waiting on some changes that peter wanted to make, IIRC?
[16:19:28] <dwd> Ge0rG, I'd like to finish this meeting before February.
[16:19:48] <Ge0rG> dwd: nothing wrong with that
[16:20:03] <Ge0rG> dwd: my "moving on" was unrelated to your "moving on", sorry for the confusion
[16:20:14] <dwd> Ge0rG, I thought it might be. :-)
[16:20:30] <dwd> SamWhited, WHat were the changes? Are they in a PR or on the list somewhere?
[16:20:56] <SamWhited> dwd: I don't recall
[16:21:06] <dwd> SamWhited, No, me neither.
[16:21:15] <Ge0rG> 186 was last addressed in http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2017-02-08#16:00:55
[16:21:19] <SamWhited> 0352 does not appear to have received any feedback; still looking for the mail about 0168
[16:21:30] <SamWhited> oops, too late. Ge0rG got it.
[16:21:35] <dwd> So, I propose that for both 186 and 352, we consider repeating a Last Call.
[16:21:55] <Kev> +1
[16:22:09] <SamWhited> I think we've done that already at least once, maybe twice for 352. I don't think we're likely to get more feedback the second (or third?) time
[16:22:14] <Ge0rG> I have a vague feeling that 352 is also related to the message routing Big Picture, in the context of "urgent" messages
[16:22:23] <daniel> csi received a lot of feedback
[16:22:24] <SamWhited> oh no, I'm sorry, this was an older LC, maybe it was unrelated
[16:22:38] <SamWhited> daniel: did it? I was just looking at see no replies to the LC email
[16:22:50] <dwd> Well, I'm going to put them on for next week's agenda for a LC vote.
[16:23:28] <daniel> i'm looking at an older thread from februrary 9th
[16:23:38] <daniel> no idea why the LC was repeated
[16:23:52] <dwd> We've got XEP-0084 deprecation, and also some stuff about reverting bookmarks to private XML. Anyone any idea on those?
[16:23:54] <daniel> there haven't been any changes and the old thread has positive feedback
[16:24:35] <jonasw> dwd, XEP-0084 isn’t really used in the wild and it is confusing for developers (I certainly was confused) because everybody™ uses vcards, apparently.
[16:24:37] <SamWhited> Link Mauve: care to elaborate on those?
[16:25:09] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:25:10] <jonasw> regarding bookmarks, I think the argument was that the change to PEP was a major break which should not have happened in a Draft XEP, it should’ve been a new XEP.
[16:25:23] <jonasw> I think that both are valid things for the council to discuss.
[16:25:43] <dwd> OK, on for next week.
[16:26:28] <dwd> So I think I understand the XHTML-IM and XEP-0286 ones. They can go on next week as well.
[16:26:43] <dwd> So, quickly since we're running short on time - AOB.
[16:26:58] <dwd> I think we agreed to vote on XEP-0234 for Last Call?
[16:27:07] <dwd> ... for which I'm +1.
[16:27:13] <daniel> +1
[16:27:39] <SamWhited> +1
[16:27:43] <Ge0rG> +1
[16:27:59] <Kev> Already +1d.
[16:28:18] <dwd> OK. Any other Any other Business?
[16:28:34] <jonasw> dwd, the LC mail I sent you
[16:28:38] <jonasw> but that’s not urgent I believe
[16:29:03] <SamWhited> XEP-0286 also had a LC end with minor feedback (all editorial things, IIRC) that was addressed.
[16:29:57] <jonasw> but in fact I think that was fully adressed, nevermind, dwd
[16:30:28] <dwd> jonasw, I know you wanted feedback on hash choices for the colour XEP, too. Can we discuss that next time?
[16:30:34] <jonasw> ah, yes
[16:30:35] <jonasw> sure
[16:30:51] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:30:52] <dwd> Right. Assuming no other business, then:
[16:31:05] <dwd> 7) Time of next
[16:31:15] <Ge0rG> +1W WFM
[16:31:28] <SamWhited> WFM
[16:31:34] <dwd> I cannot, unfortunately, make next week's meeting - I'll be stepping off stage after a talk at the time.
[16:31:41] <Kev> What Foxes Move.
[16:32:12] <dwd> Kev, Can you chair next week's?
[16:32:35] <Kev> Sure.
[16:32:43] <dwd> I'll *try* to join late, if possible.
[16:33:04] <dwd> Right, in that case we're done. Thanks all.
[16:33:09] <Kev> Thanks all.
[16:33:11] <dwd> 8) Ite, Meeting Est.
[16:33:35] <jonasw> the minutes go to which addresses? council@ and standards@?
[16:33:41] <Kev> Please.
[16:39:07] <Ge0rG> Thanks.
[16:41:04] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:43:11] <jonasw> minutes sent, thanks everyone
[16:48:43] <peter> SamWhited: Yes, there was list discussion about XEP-0186 early this year, and I have not yet made those changes. I think the changeset will be somewhat small, but I need to do that soon before my new job starts. Thanks for the reminder.
[16:49:06] <SamWhited> peter: thanks! I'll update the card so we don't forget again
[16:49:11] <peter> OK, great.
[16:51:13] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:54:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[16:54:25] *** jere has joined the room
[16:56:14] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[17:03:20] *** Kev shows as "away"
[17:04:10] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:04:10] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:07:16] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:16:40] *** Kev shows as "online"
[17:20:49] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:22:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:23:46] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:26:03] *** SamWhited has left the room
[17:26:59] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[17:27:37] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:28:43] *** jonasw shows as "online"
[17:30:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:30:49] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:32:59] *** Guus has left the room
[17:33:02] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:36:21] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:36:36] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[17:37:08] *** jonasw has left the room
[17:37:23] *** ralphm has left the room
[17:37:52] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[17:39:43] *** SouL has left the room
[17:39:53] *** peter shows as "online"
[18:03:30] *** SouL has joined the room
[18:04:01] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:09:17] *** genofire has left the room
[18:11:26] *** jere has left the room
[18:11:27] *** jere has joined the room
[18:13:54] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:16:28] *** peter shows as "online"
[18:16:35] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:19:02] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:19:16] *** jere has left the room
[18:20:38] *** genofire has left the room
[18:20:48] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:21:17] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:21:37] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:21:46] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:22:30] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:24:14] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:24:54] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:26:30] *** genofire has left the room
[18:26:31] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:26:35] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:26:36] *** jere has joined the room
[18:27:10] *** daniel has left the room
[18:27:14] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:28:36] *** peter shows as "online"
[18:29:40] *** Tobias shows as "away"
[18:37:52] *** daniel has left the room
[18:37:56] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:38:13] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:39:17] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:40:15] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:45:59] *** dwd shows as "online"
[18:47:18] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:48:27] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:48:38] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[18:52:27] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:53:21] *** daniel has left the room
[18:53:24] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:58:49] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:59:42] *** genofire shows as "online"
[18:59:46] *** genofire shows as "online"
[19:06:28] *** Tobias has left the room
[19:08:49] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:13:49] <jonasw> peter, you’ll have noticed that the tooling for sending emails etc. changed quite a bit. if you don’t mind, it’d be great if you familiarize yourself with it or make PRs for your changes, so that e.g. I can take care of that.
[19:14:02] *** daniel has left the room
[19:14:05] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:14:40] *** Kev shows as "online"
[19:16:18] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:16:24] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:19:57] <jonasw> damn, I wanted to write that in the editors muc.
[19:20:49] *** genofire has left the room
[19:20:51] *** genofire shows as "online"
[19:22:01] *** genofire shows as "online"
[19:29:24] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:30:34] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:30:36] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[19:32:46] *** Kev shows as "away"
[19:34:34] *** daniel has left the room
[19:34:42] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:39:43] *** Tobias has left the room
[19:40:22] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:40:37] *** SouL has left the room
[19:43:03] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:43:17] *** SouL has left the room
[19:47:01] *** SouL shows as "online"
[19:47:21] *** dwd shows as "online"
[19:49:36] *** Kev has left the room
[19:51:03] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:53:53] *** daniel has left the room
[19:53:57] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:58:48] *** genofire_s7 has joined the room
[19:59:49] *** SouL has left the room
[20:00:32] *** genofire shows as "online"
[20:01:03] *** SouL shows as "online"
[20:10:55] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:11:54] *** genofire_s7 shows as "online"
[20:13:33] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:13:34] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[20:14:39] *** peter shows as "online"
[20:16:48] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:22:44] *** genofire_s7 shows as "online"
[20:26:58] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:30:09] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[20:32:43] *** dwd shows as "online"
[20:33:11] *** genofire_s7 shows as "online"
[20:34:00] *** Kev has joined the room
[20:34:04] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:34:13] *** ralphm has left the room
[20:34:19] *** genofire_s7 shows as "online"
[20:36:48] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:36:48] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:47:26] *** genofire_s7 shows as "online"
[20:48:08] *** daniel has left the room
[20:49:07] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:50:25] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:52:15] *** Lance has joined the room
[20:52:16] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:57:04] *** peter shows as "online"
[20:57:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:58:49] *** genofire_s7 shows as "online"
[21:01:14] *** Kev shows as "away"
[21:01:29] *** genofire_s7 shows as "online"
[21:03:36] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:04:47] *** Kev has left the room
[21:05:20] *** ralphm has left the room
[21:08:32] *** genofire_s7 has left the room
[21:08:50] *** genofire_s7 has joined the room
[21:13:47] *** SouL has left the room
[21:14:23] *** SouL shows as "online"
[21:18:44] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:20:57] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:21:57] *** Kev has left the room
[21:22:41] *** daniel has left the room
[21:22:45] *** daniel shows as "online"
[21:24:03] *** daniel has left the room
[21:24:40] *** daniel shows as "online"
[21:26:02] *** genofire_s7 has left the room
[21:26:16] *** genofire_s7 has joined the room
[21:33:50] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:35:27] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:36:12] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[21:36:13] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:36:16] *** Zash has left the room
[21:38:39] *** Link Mauve shows as "online" and his status message is "Bien arrivé en France."
[21:39:16] *** Zash has joined the room
[21:44:15] *** genofire_s7 has left the room
[21:44:36] *** genofire_s7 has joined the room
[21:48:42] *** pep. has joined the room
[21:51:13] *** dwd has left the room
[21:51:29] *** Kev has joined the room
[21:51:29] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:55:15] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:55:39] *** peter shows as "online"
[22:01:52] *** peter has left the room
[22:02:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:03:11] *** genofire_s7 has left the room
[22:03:24] *** genofire_s7 has joined the room
[22:06:13] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:06:15] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:06:25] *** peter has joined the room
[22:06:35] *** genofire_s7 has left the room
[22:06:45] *** jere has left the room
[22:06:48] *** genofire_s7 has joined the room
[22:07:00] *** jere has joined the room
[22:08:52] *** genofire_s7 has left the room
[22:08:53] *** genofire has left the room
[22:08:54] *** genofire shows as "online"
[22:10:52] *** peter has left the room
[22:12:21] *** Zash has left the room
[22:19:13] *** jere has left the room
[22:19:18] *** jere has joined the room
[22:21:53] *** dwd has joined the room
[22:27:13] *** dwd shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:30:24] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:30:30] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:37:12] *** dwd shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:38:11] *** Kev shows as "away"
[22:40:26] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:46:33] *** ralphm has left the room
[22:46:37] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[22:51:31] *** daniel has left the room
[22:51:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[22:53:07] *** jere has left the room
[22:53:15] *** jere has joined the room
[23:04:57] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:08:58] *** Kev has left the room
[23:14:47] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:16:03] *** daniel has left the room
[23:21:01] *** daniel shows as "online"