Wednesday, December 06, 2017
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[16:00:08] <Kev> 'tis time, 'tis time.
[16:00:16] <jonasw> the harpie cries
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[16:00:27] <Kev> 1) Bread products!
[16:00:29] <jonasw> I gotta leave at 1630Z, so I won’t be able to properly take minutes
[16:00:38] <Kev> jonasw: I can do minutes, it's ok ta.
[16:00:53] <Kev> Dave sends apologies. daniel, Ge0rG, SamWhited - you here?
[16:01:08] <jonasw> two out of those have spoken in other MUCs just a few minutes ago :)
[16:01:20] *Ge0rG here
[16:01:26] <SamWhited> I'm here
[16:01:51] <daniel> hi
[16:02:08] <Kev> 2) 186 LC
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[16:02:48] <Kev> I'm +1
[16:02:57] <Kev> (This is a re-issue because the last one expired without Council voting)
[16:02:58] <SamWhited> What are we voting on?
[16:03:03] <SamWhited> Oops, too slow
[16:03:13] <SamWhited> I don't think we have to vote on this; editor will just reissue the LC
[16:03:23] <SamWhited> (but +1 FWIW)
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[16:03:27] <Ge0rG> +1 for LC
[16:03:31] <Kev> I think that's right, as it happens.
[16:03:59] <daniel> +1
[16:04:00] <jonasw> editor will take notice that this is the councils opinion and re-issue the LC sometime tomorrow, maybe tonight (or somebody besides me does it)
[16:04:04] <Kev> And same for
[16:04:04] <Kev> 3) 352 LC
[16:04:14] <Kev> jonasw: More than Council's opinion, it's what xep1 says :)
[16:04:21] <Kev> 4) Deprecating 84
[16:04:33] <jonasw> Kev, we could also simply move it back to experimental, couldn’t we?
[16:04:50] <Kev> No, xep1 says that if there's a vote that wasn't completed, the Editors will re-issue an LC.
[16:04:54] <jonasw> ah okay
[16:05:13] <Kev> So, deprecating '84, which I think was Link Mauve's request.
[16:05:25] <Kev> (That's pubsub avatars, for anyone who needs to know)
[16:05:45] <daniel> has there been any argument on why?
[16:05:57] <Ge0rG> I haven't yet compared pubsub avatars to vcard avatars, so I'm impartial.
[16:05:58] <jonasw> IIRC, vcard works today
[16:06:05] <Kev> It just appeared on the Council board without an argument why.
[16:06:07] <jonasw> IIRC, the argument was "vcard works today"
[16:06:11] <Kev> Link Mauve can probably say why, though.
[16:06:12] <Ge0rG> jonasw: weren't there special cases where vcard doesn't work in MUCs?
[16:06:24] <Kev> Ge0rG: none that PEP does work in, I think.
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[16:06:36] <SamWhited> I'd prefer to deprecate 0153. 0084 has its problems, but seems like a better more future-compatible platform, but I don't care as long as we move towards a single way to do avatars.
[16:07:01] <Ge0rG> 0153 is Historical already.
[16:07:33] <Kev> Indeed, deprecating 153 is likely not the right thing to do.
[16:07:55] <SamWhited> I disagree; it appears right now that we're recommending two different ways to do avatars, which seems to be the main problem here to me.
[16:07:57] <Kev> I'm not convinced that we should be deprecating 84. I'm -1 for the moment, but in the minutes I'll invite an argument why it should happen.
[16:08:09] <Kev> No, I mean that a Historical XEP doesn't need deprecating, because of its nature :)
[16:08:16] <Kev> (Although we can do so, certainly)
[16:08:25] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: which are the two? 84 and 153?
[16:08:30] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: Yes
[16:08:37] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: and where are we recommending 153?
[16:08:41] <Ge0rG> (and for what reasons)
[16:08:41] <daniel> and the other two :-)
[16:08:48] <SamWhited> It's got a big green block of text that says "This is draft" at the top
[16:08:52] <Kev> Ge0rG: We're not, but it's the de facto standard.
[16:09:07] <jonasw> (which I learnt the hard way which I find annoying)
[16:09:08] <Kev> Anyway, with one -1 in place, let's gather votes for this and move on.
[16:09:19] <daniel> -1
[16:09:23] <Ge0rG> 387 goes with 84, so it might be not smart to deprecate it.
[16:09:28] <SamWhited> Sounds good; I'll discuss on list if necessary.
[16:09:52] <Kev> SamWhited: "sounds good" is voting which way?
[16:09:59] <Kev> Same question for contestant number Ge0rG.
[16:10:02] <Ge0rG> -1 for now, until reasons for deprecation are provided
[16:10:06] <SamWhited> Kev: "let's move on" sounds good, I mean. On list.
[16:10:11] <Kev> Ta.
[16:10:16] <Kev> 5) Reverting 48 to 49
[16:10:26] <Kev> That's reverting bookmarks to iq:private instead of private pubsub.
[16:10:45] <daniel> is there an argument on why?
[16:10:48] <SamWhited> I'm not sure why this one was brought up either; is there a problem with them as they are today?
[16:10:49] <Kev> This isn't a voting point, because there's no vote to be made.
[16:10:50] <jonasw> I did
[16:11:15] <Kev> But let's discuss.
[16:11:17] <jonasw> the argument is that the change from private XML to pubsub happened in draft state, which is a major breakage of the protocol. many deployments are still on Private XML
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[16:11:25] <jonasw> which is indiscoverable to new developers
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[16:11:32] <Kev> jonasw: So it's a point of process?
[16:11:40] <jonasw> no, also a point of usability by developers
[16:11:41] <Ge0rG> I think deployments are on private XML because some major XMPP server implementations lack persistent PEP.
[16:11:43] <Kev> I think 'indiscoverable' is pushing it a bit, when the XEP says this explicitly.
[16:12:26] <jonasw> so the point is, as a new developer, you see the XEP, you think "neat, PEP", implement it, and find no bookmarks
[16:12:29] <Kev> I think private pubsub is a better mechanism to be storing these data than iq:private, so reverting to say it should be iq:private seems wrong, and the XEP already says that existing implementations do iq:private, so implementors know that they'll want to consider at least read access to it.
[16:12:36] <jonasw> I agree that it is a better mechanism.
[16:12:46] <Kev> jonasw: Except you wouldn't, because the XEP notes that people used to do iq:private.
[16:12:57] <jonasw> "used to do" implies that it isn’t that way anymore
[16:13:15] <jonasw> and also, only read access isn’t sufficient, because there are enough clients and servers out there which still can only do private XML
[16:13:18] <Ge0rG> So maybe we should extend 48 with a compat behavior spec?
[16:13:45] <Ge0rG> 0387 does not enforce the type of backend storage.
[16:14:06] <Kev> I think the note that we used to recommend iq:private is sufficient, but we could add an extra sentence to say "and it's still widely used" if it'll make people feel better, and then new implementors are forewarned.
[16:14:09] <Ge0rG> We might add both 49 and 223 to 0387 as well
[16:14:23] <Kev> But I don't think that saying "you SHOULD use iq:private" instead of the better private pubsub mechanism is right.
[16:14:44] <SamWhited> Agreed
[16:14:52] <Ge0rG> Kev: in theory, you are right. In practice, implementations of private pubsub will learn about the lack of persistence, the hard way.
[16:14:58] <jonasw> Kev, I agree with your second part, I disagree with the precedent this change sets
[16:15:05] <Ge0rG> ...of private pubsub bookmarks
[16:15:20] <daniel> Ge0rG, more importantly the implementation you are talking about doesn't support making the node private
[16:15:22] <Kev> Ge0rG: I am not inclined to avoid doing the Right Thing here because one (popular!) server implementation doesn't have a feature.
[16:15:28] <daniel> which arguably is the bigger issue
[16:15:49] <Kev> Else we end up with all our XEPs saying "But instead you need to do X for Prosody".
[16:15:52] <Ge0rG> Kev: apparently we can not force implementations to do anything.
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[16:16:24] <jonasw> I gotta run, see you later
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[16:16:31] <Kev> I don't think I've successfully forced anyone to do anything in my life :)
[16:16:33] <Kev> Thanks Jonas.
[16:16:33] <Ge0rG> I'm not arguing in favor of "you SHOULD use iq:private", merely pointing out that usage of iq:private is self-reinforcing.
[16:16:39] <Kev> It is, certainly.
[16:16:52] <Kev> But not all deployments are based on Prosody.
[16:17:19] <Kev> I suggest that someone proposes an additional line as I did above to 48, and we vote on that once it's done.
[16:17:21] <Kev> I can do that.
[16:17:32] <Ge0rG> Kev: please do.
[16:17:53] <Kev> Moving on
[16:17:57] <Kev> 6) Date of next.
[16:18:10] <Kev> I can't do next week, and I possibly can't do anything else until the new year, at this point, but will vote on list.
[16:18:16] <Kev> Does everyone else want to SBTSBC?
[16:18:20] <SamWhited> WFM
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[16:18:45] <Ge0rG> +1W WFM
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[16:19:32] <Kev> daniel?
[16:19:47] <daniel> next week works for me
[16:20:23] <Kev> 7) AOB
[16:21:00] <SamWhited> I would like to ask that we vote on XEP-0286: Mobile Considerations for LTE Networks (or pull it in next week)
[16:21:06] <SamWhited> It's been sitting in the proposed agendums for a few weeks
[16:21:52] <Kev> I only grabbed for the Agenda today what Dave'd put on it, so I've not reviewed (and assume no-one else has) 286 and trying to vote on it now would be unhelpful.
[16:22:06] <Kev> So I propose I drag it to the Agenda for next week, and we look at it then.
[16:22:14] <SamWhited> Works for me; thanks.
[16:22:19] <Kev> Anything else?
[16:22:37] <Kev> Looks like not. Thanks all.
[16:22:40] *Kev gangs the bavel
[16:23:21] <SamWhited> Thanks Kev
[16:24:06] <Ge0rG> Thanks Kev
[16:24:46] <SamWhited> Would anyone complain if I removed the "For Editors" column and asked people to move them straight to the editors board's TODO column? That way editors can get alerts
[16:24:59] <SamWhited> Everyone *should* have access to the editors board if you're already on the council one
[16:25:43] <Kev> I think it only affects Dave and the Editors.
[16:25:49] <Kev> Maybe check with him, but it seems sensible to me.
[16:26:18] <SamWhited> *nods* going to do it and if he doesn't like it or doesn't have access he can always unarchive it next week
[16:26:45] <Ge0rG> "Dave and the Editors" sounds like an awesome name for a Punk band.
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[16:45:44] <moparisthebest> sounds boring
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[16:46:31] <moparisthebest> "and then he consulted XEP-0001 for the proper procedure, dum dum dum"
[16:46:36] <moparisthebest> it sounds like blues in my brain
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[16:56:35] <Kev> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/554 - 48 patch.
[16:58:32] <Ge0rG> Kev: 👍
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