Tuesday, January 09, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:10:37] <Dave> jonasw, SamWhited - Just running through the Council Agenda for tomorrow - is it only my two ProtoXEPs come in since last time?
[14:12:38] <SamWhited> Nothing new from me, just a few old things that have been festering
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[14:17:04] <daniel> Dave: there is the Avatar conversion
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[14:28:19] <jonasw> Dave, three, what daniel said
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[15:09:36] <Dave> The state of isr-sasl2 seems confused - Council voted, that vote has presumably timed out, but no votes at all are recorded in Trello?
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[15:19:11] <Kev> It wasn't clear to me which of the several versions of ISR we were voting on from the minutes. So I sent out a vote based on what I thought we were voting on, and a -1 otherwise.
[15:19:20] <Dave> Looks like Daniel, Kev and I all voted for.
[15:19:52] <Dave> Kev, I think his latest advertised is what's in the inbox. I was assuming we were voting for the isr-sasl2.html in the inbox anyway.
[15:20:08] <Ge0rG> I think the general idea is to accept something that looks generally implementable and to finish the spec afterwards?
[15:20:09] <Kev> Ah, ok. I thought his latest wasn't in the inbox yet.
[15:20:29] <Kev> Ge0rG: As long as it doesn't look harmfully the wrong approach for some reason, I accept generally, yes.
[15:20:42] <Ge0rG> So the exact version in the inbox doesn't matter too much?
[15:20:50] <Kev> There is an argument to be made for that, yes.
[15:20:51] <Dave> Ge0rG, Yes, although ironically I thought I'd implement this afternoon and found I can't because he's tied it into the SASL mechanism, which I hadn't really appreciated.
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[15:27:33] <Ge0rG> Dave: I'd really love to scale back the SASL thing and just let ISR be an additional token that immediately gives you your old 0198 session
[15:28:27] <Dave> Ge0rG, Why? The immediacy can be achieved simply enough without tying it into a SASL mechanism, and gives us flexibility over authentication.
[15:28:58] <Kev> And I'm interested in using 'instant re-auth with this key' without involving 198, FWIW.
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[15:29:19] <Kev> Because I think fast resync is a worthwhile problem to solve, without 198.
[15:29:32] <Dave> Kev, CLIENT-KEY can do that, longer-term. But it does mandate an atomic counter at both ends, which might be painful in a cluster.
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[15:30:00] <Dave> Kev, Flow's HT-* mechanism family should manage it, but it's tied into 198 quite heavily.
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[15:33:34] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'd say that a instant re-auth that's tied to a short-lived 0198 after-session is technically not a new authentication, as opposed to something like CLIENT-KEY
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[15:48:59] <Dave> Ge0rG, Well, you connect, do *magic* and then the server knows who you are.
[15:49:18] <Dave> Ge0rG, Which makes me suspect that *magic* includes an authentication.
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[18:47:53] <Ge0rG> Dave: so I have a TCP session with TLS on top of it that I didn't send any data over for half an hour, and then I send another packet, and the other side knows it's from me - is that authentication as well?
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[18:49:11] <Ge0rG> How often do I need to enter an OTP code?
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[18:49:54] <Zash> With every TCP segment!
[18:50:18] <Ge0rG> Zash: TCP is a stream of bytes. So I think you mean with every byte.
[18:50:24] <Ge0rG> But then again, there is TLS overhead.
[18:50:57] <Zash> TLS uses blocks somewhat larger than single bytes IIRC
[18:51:41] <Ge0rG> Now you made me wonder how TLS operates. Does it fill up its data up to the MSS? Is it playing weird games with Nagle?
[18:51:52] <Ge0rG> Do I really want to know?
[18:51:54] <Zash> You probably don't want to know.
[18:52:32] <Ge0rG> So back to my original question. When does it stop to be the continuation of an ongoing authenticated session and begins to be a new authentication?
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[18:53:51] <Ge0rG> Does it need to run in the same TLS session? Same TCP session? Same pair of entities? What if I export the TLS state from one entity to another?
[18:53:52] <Zash> There's some framing, padding to the cipher block size and a MAC.
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[18:55:01] <Ge0rG> Zash: that totally doesn't answer my question.
[18:55:17] <Zash> I was just telling you what you don't wanna know.
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