Wednesday, January 17, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:52:02] <Ge0rG> So I've arrived in time. Great.
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[16:00:34] <Ge0rG> So, it's time. In theory.
[16:00:44] <Dave> It is.
[16:00:49] <Ge0rG> Do we have an agenda?
[16:00:58] <Dave> I haven't prepared one - my fault entirely.
[16:01:19] <Ge0rG> Dave: maybe we can reuse the one from the week before, and just replace some XEP numbers?
[16:01:29] <Ge0rG> I've had a great holiday season, thanks!
[16:01:33] <Dave> Heh.
[16:01:44] <Dave> daniel, SamWhited - about?
[16:01:50] <SamWhited> *nods*
[16:01:53] <daniel> yes
[16:02:07] <Dave> Excellent. Kev sent apologies last week as I recall.
[16:02:08] <Ge0rG> I'm interested in getting the user-invite protoXEP voted on
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[16:02:30] <Ge0rG> Actually I'd like to get any kind of feedback.
[16:02:44] <Dave> Ge0rG, Yes. That's not yet on Trello for some reason, but was announced last week, so is up for a vote.
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[16:03:42] <Dave> Do we have a minute-taker?
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[16:04:07] <Dave> Going to take that as a "Dave, you can do it"
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[16:04:26] <Dave> So:
[16:04:38] <Dave> 1) Roll Call (we're all present aside from Kev)
[16:04:44] <Dave> 2) Agenda bashing
[16:05:15] <Dave> I think we have the user-invite ProtoXEP, and a couple of other changes to XEPs.
[16:06:36] <Dave> Let's just roll through them.
[16:06:45] <Dave> 3) https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/user-invite.html
[16:06:53] <Ge0rG> Obviously +1
[16:07:09] <SamWhited> On list
[16:07:19] <Ge0rG> It's not perfect and I'm not 100% happy with the IBR extension format. But it's a pragmatic way forward
[16:07:31] <daniel> on list
[16:07:56] <Dave> I *think* IBR supports forms, in principle. Doesn't it?
[16:08:06] <Zash> Yes
[16:08:29] <Dave> So this should be using those. I'm assuming we can change that after we give it a number though.
[16:08:29] <Ge0rG> Dave: we don't want to use them because forms are a reaction to the inital IBR request from the client, not something initiated by the client
[16:08:49] <Dave> So despite that I'll +1.
[16:09:56] <Dave> Ge0rG, OK. But I suppose my point is that this is a problem we want to solve, and it'll be roughly this shape.
[16:10:07] <Ge0rG> Dave: yes.
[16:10:23] <Dave> SamWhited, ?
[16:10:33] <Dave> Oh, wait, I see you already said on-list.
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[16:11:55] <Dave> 4) I see XEP-0286 is on the agenda, this is pending a Last Call? Or has had a Last Call? Or what?
[16:12:30] <SamWhited> It has had a last call and I have been trying to get the council to vote on it for quite some time
[16:13:34] <Dave> OK, looks like Kev added it and I've been skipping it. Right, vote to advance, then?
[16:13:47] <SamWhited> +1
[16:13:52] <Ge0rG> It was last-called in November, and there was not much feedback. +1 from me
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[16:14:09] <daniel> +1
[16:14:17] <Dave> +1.
[16:14:24] <Dave> So just waiting for Kev on list.
[16:16:31] <Ge0rG> Is there a network outage or are we literally waiting for Kev on list? :D
[16:16:42] <Dave> 5) I have "Approve text change suggested last year to 48".
[16:16:46] <Dave> That's https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/554
[16:16:54] <Dave> Ge0rG, I'm frantically looking things up. :-)
[16:17:03] <Ge0rG> Dave: ah, nevermind then :
[16:17:04] <Ge0rG> :)
[16:17:13] <daniel> +1
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[16:17:25] <Dave> +1 on this change.
[16:17:25] <Ge0rG> +1
[16:17:53] <SamWhited> on list; I forgot about this one and am no longer sure how I feel about it.
[16:18:11] <Ge0rG> it's a pretty minor wording change, documenting the status quo
[16:19:12] <Dave> OK.
[16:19:29] <Dave> 6) XEP-0060 changes.
[16:20:15] <Dave> So the first of these, the publish-options change[s] that Daniel has proposed, we went back to the list and got nothing. So I think at this point we just take the view of the Council.
[16:20:30] <Dave> My impression is that we're generally agreed on the third option?
[16:20:54] <SamWhited> Define 'third option'?
[16:21:15] <Dave> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/554 <-- this one.
[16:21:21] <daniel> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/557
[16:21:25] <Dave> Argh. copy/paste error.
[16:21:31] <Dave> 557 indeed.
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[16:21:50] <Ge0rG> +1 to #557, as apparently nobody in the wider community cares enough or understands the problem.
[16:22:10] <daniel> rendered here: https://gultsch.de/files/xep-0060.html
[16:22:20] <Ge0rG> Sorry for delaying the whole thing for a week, but now I have a less-worse feeling about it.
[16:22:24] <SamWhited> Ah yes, thanks. Third in terms of GitHub ID, gotcha.
[16:22:33] <daniel> +1
[16:22:40] <SamWhited> +1
[16:22:44] <Ge0rG> So I suppose this implies -1 to #555 and #556?
[16:22:44] <daniel> +1 to #557
[16:23:09] <daniel> Ge0rG, those are mutually exclusive
[16:23:23] <Ge0rG> daniel: will you pull them back or do we need to vote them into oblivion?
[16:23:24] <daniel> i would like to revote on 555 in case 557 doesn't get approved
[16:23:47] <Dave> I'm happy with #557 too. I feel more comfortable implementing preconditions than I do overrides.
[16:23:48] <daniel> so i would rather you not -1 #555 before 557 gets approved
[16:23:50] <daniel> but yes
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[16:25:00] <Ge0rG> Great!
[16:25:15] <Dave> 7) XEP-0387
[16:26:00] <Dave> Given that Kev has pending comments and a PR here, I don't know whether a vote is worthwhile, but I'm happy to take one.
[16:26:30] <Dave> So I suppose I'm asking for a vote on advancement to Draft *without* applying Kev's outstanding PR (and therefore without addressing his comments).
[16:26:46] <daniel> +1
[16:27:08] <SamWhited> +1 (with the note that I will address Kev's concerns immediately in the 2019 ones which I will start as soon as we finally do something with the 2018 ones)
[16:27:34] <Ge0rG> +1 either with or without #569 applied. I want to get this resolved ASAP.
[16:28:09] <SamWhited> Also with the note that these do not have to cover everything; they just have to reasonably tell clients what they need to do to implement a modern client (but do not have to cover every single thing under the sun, just offer some basic guidance which we can always improve next year)
[16:28:45] <Ge0rG> One day, the compliance suite will be the Gold Standard for measuring client XMPPness.
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[16:29:33] <Dave> I'm abstaining on this one. I don't understand why you're refusing to even discuss this feedback, and I very much doubt Kev will allow it through without, but I'll leave that decision to Kev.
[16:30:53] <Dave> 8) Outstanding votes
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[16:31:48] <Dave> Ge0rG, I think you owe a vote on pep-vcard-conversion, and totp-2fa, and possibly others.
[16:31:52] <jonasw> Dave, did you get/process the email I sent you yesterday?
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[16:32:24] <Dave> daniel, You have totp-2fa and client-key outstanding.
[16:32:35] <daniel> ack
[16:32:41] <Ge0rG> Dave: I'm pretty sure I voted everything from last week some days ago
[16:32:48] <Dave> jonasw, Yes/no.
[16:32:55] <jonasw> Dave, okay
[16:33:09] <Ge0rG> Dave: sent to council@ on Sat, 13 Jan 2018 18:48:17 +0100
[16:33:15] <Dave> Ge0rG, Ah, mea culpa.
[16:33:23] <jonasw> hm, maybe vote publicly on standards@ instead?
[16:33:25] <Ge0rG> Dave: no offense taken.
[16:33:29] <jonasw> that’s how people’ve been doing it for a while now
[16:33:36] <Ge0rG> I wasn't sure.
[16:33:51] <Ge0rG> But I can bounce that mail over to standards@
[16:34:09] <Ge0rG> done.
[16:35:06] <Ge0rG> Dave: I'm interested in your feedback on my feedback on TOTP-2FA, but that doesn't need to happen within this meeting.
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[16:35:38] <Ge0rG> daniel: do you want another clarifying follow-up from me on PEP Avatar to vCard conversion?
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[16:36:49] <daniel> Ge0rG: my understanding is that we agreed on putting sensible access control in front of vCard and leave the xep as is. If that's wrong then please do respond on list
[16:37:59] <Ge0rG> daniel: that makes the new xep depend on a change to a historical XEP.
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[16:38:20] <Dave> Sorry, my broadband just dropped. Ooops.
[16:38:30] <Ge0rG> Dave: are you missing any history?
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[16:38:49] <daniel> Ge0rG: I know. I still belive that vCard deserves that. And ultimately that's the right thing to do
[16:38:55] <Dave> Ge0rG, Nope. And yes, I'll respond to your comments.
[16:39:09] <daniel> If we want to keep using vCards at all that is
[16:39:23] <Dave> I think we're about done here anyway, sorry for the overrun and lack of agenda this week. Normal service resumed next week.
[16:39:23] <SamWhited> I'm not sure we should be messing with vcard anymore, but we can probably discuss afterwards unless this is critical to someones vote and it can't be done on list?
[16:39:29] <daniel> And looks like kev even wants to put it in the compliance suite
[16:39:31] <Dave> So:
[16:39:37] <Dave> 9) Next Meeting
[16:39:42] <Dave> Same time next week?
[16:39:45] <SamWhited> WFM
[16:39:45] <Dave> Anyone missing?
[16:39:46] <Ge0rG> +1W WFM
[16:39:57] <daniel> Yes sorry. Postponing this until after the meeting
[16:40:04] <daniel> +1w wfm
[16:40:05] <Dave> 10) AOB
[16:40:09] <Dave> Anyone?
[16:40:16] <daniel> Nope
[16:40:27] <Dave> 11) Ite, Meeting Est
[16:40:41] <Dave> But feel ffree to continue chatting of course. I just don't want to minute it anymore. :-)
[16:40:45] <SamWhited> Thanks Dave et al.
[16:40:53] <Ge0rG> We can move over to xsf@ as well.
[16:41:07] *SamWhited nods
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