XMPP Council - 2018-02-28


  1. dwd has left
  2. dwd has joined
  3. Dave has left
  4. dwd has left
  5. ralphm has left
  6. moparisthebest has joined
  7. ralphm has joined
  8. moparisthebest has joined
  9. dwd has joined
  10. Dave has left
  11. dwd has left
  12. Dave has left
  13. Dave has left
  14. ralphm has left
  15. vanitasvitae has left
  16. ralphm has joined
  17. dwd has joined
  18. dwd has left
  19. ralphm has left
  20. ralphm has joined
  21. SamWhited has left
  22. Dave has left
  23. ralphm has left
  24. dwd has joined
  25. dwd has left
  26. ralphm has joined
  27. ralphm has left
  28. ralphm has joined
  29. Dave has left
  30. Dave has left
  31. Dave has left
  32. jere has joined
  33. ralphm has left
  34. dwd has joined
  35. ralphm has joined
  36. Dave has left
  37. jere has left
  38. jere has joined
  39. Dave has left
  40. dwd has left
  41. Dave has left
  42. Dave has left
  43. dwd has joined
  44. ralphm has left
  45. ralphm has joined
  46. dwd has left
  47. SamWhited has left
  48. vanitasvitae has left
  49. Dave has left
  50. Dave has left
  51. genofire has left
  52. dwd has left
  53. dwd has left
  54. Lance has left
  55. ralphm has left
  56. ralphm has joined
  57. Dave has left
  58. dwd has left
  59. dwd has joined
  60. Dave has left
  61. jere has joined
  62. dwd has left
  63. ralphm has left
  64. ralphm has joined
  65. ralphm has left
  66. ralphm has joined
  67. Dave has left
  68. Dave has left
  69. dwd has joined
  70. Dave has left
  71. Dave has left
  72. SamWhited has left
  73. Dave has left
  74. Dave has left
  75. Dave has left
  76. Dave has left
  77. dwd has left
  78. Dave has left
  79. dwd has left
  80. dwd has left
  81. Lance has joined
  82. Dave has left
  83. Dave has left
  84. dwd has joined
  85. Dave has left
  86. Dave has left
  87. dwd has left
  88. Dave has left
  89. Dave has left
  90. dwd has joined
  91. Dave has left
  92. dwd has left
  93. Kev has joined
  94. dwd has joined
  95. dwd has left
  96. Dave has left
  97. pep. has joined
  98. Dave has left
  99. dwd has joined
  100. Dave has left
  101. dwd has left
  102. Dave has left
  103. dwd has joined
  104. Dave has left
  105. Lance has left
  106. daniel has left
  107. dwd has left
  108. ralphm has joined
  109. Dave has left
  110. dwd has left
  111. dwd has joined
  112. vanitasvitae has left
  113. vanitasvitae has joined
  114. ralphm has left
  115. daniel has left
  116. Lance has joined
  117. Dave has left
  118. dwd has left
  119. dwd has joined
  120. Dave has left
  121. dwd has left
  122. ralphm has left
  123. dwd has joined
  124. ralphm has left
  125. moparisthebest has left
  126. moparisthebest has joined
  127. Dave has left
  128. Dave has left
  129. Dave has left
  130. Dave has left
  131. dwd has left
  132. Dave has left
  133. Dave has left
  134. Dave has left
  135. Dave has left
  136. Dave has left
  137. Dave has left
  138. Dave has left
  139. Dave has left
  140. Dave has left
  141. Dave has left
  142. daniel has left
  143. Dave has left
  144. Dave has left
  145. Dave has left
  146. daniel has left
  147. Dave has left
  148. Dave has left
  149. daniel has left
  150. Dave has left
  151. Dave has left
  152. Dave has left
  153. daniel has left
  154. Dave has left
  155. genofire has left
  156. Dave has left
  157. daniel has left
  158. daniel has left
  159. moparisthebest has joined
  160. daniel has left
  161. Dave has left
  162. daniel has left
  163. Dave has left
  164. moparisthebest has joined
  165. dwd has joined
  166. daniel has left
  167. dwd has left
  168. Kev I believe I'm now current on all Council votes.
  169. Dave Kev, In email?
  170. vanitasvitae has left
  171. Kev Yes, I owed three weeks ago, which I sent last week, and two weeks ago, which I just sent.
  172. Kev Last week had no outstanding votes.
  173. jere has joined
  174. Dave has left
  175. dwd has joined
  176. Dave has left
  177. dwd has left
  178. dwd has joined
  179. dwd has left
  180. Dave has left
  181. dwd has joined
  182. Dave has left
  183. dwd has left
  184. Dave has left
  185. moparisthebest has joined
  186. dwd has joined
  187. Dave has left
  188. dwd has left
  189. dwd has joined
  190. moparisthebest has joined
  191. dwd has left
  192. Dave has left
  193. dwd has joined
  194. Dave has left
  195. dwd has left
  196. dwd has joined
  197. Dave has left
  198. dwd has left
  199. daniel has left
  200. dwd has joined
  201. dwd has left
  202. Dave has left
  203. Dave has left
  204. SouL has left
  205. daniel has left
  206. Dave has left
  207. Dave has left
  208. daniel has left
  209. Dave has left
  210. dwd has joined
  211. dwd has left
  212. moparisthebest has joined
  213. Dave has left
  214. Zash has left
  215. Dave has left
  216. moparisthebest has joined
  217. dwd has joined
  218. Dave has left
  219. dwd has left
  220. Dave has left
  221. Dave has left
  222. Dave has left
  223. Dave has left
  224. Dave has left
  225. Dave has left
  226. dwd has joined
  227. Zash has left
  228. Zash has joined
  229. dwd has left
  230. Dave has left
  231. dwd has joined
  232. Dave has left
  233. dwd has left
  234. Lance has left
  235. Lance has joined
  236. Dave has left
  237. ralphm has left
  238. dwd has joined
  239. bear has left
  240. Dave has left
  241. dwd has left
  242. dwd has joined
  243. dwd has left
  244. Dave has left
  245. daniel has left
  246. dwd has joined
  247. dwd has left
  248. moparisthebest has joined
  249. Dave has left
  250. moparisthebest has joined
  251. Dave has left
  252. dwd has joined
  253. Dave has left
  254. Dave has left
  255. dwd has left
  256. Dave has left
  257. Dave has left
  258. Dave has left
  259. jere has left
  260. jere has joined
  261. Dave has left
  262. daniel has left
  263. Dave has left
  264. Zash has left
  265. ralphm has joined
  266. dwd has joined
  267. Dave has left
  268. dwd has left
  269. Dave has left
  270. Zash has joined
  271. ralphm has joined
  272. Dave has left
  273. Dave has left
  274. Dave has left
  275. ralphm has left
  276. Dave has left
  277. Dave has left
  278. Dave has left
  279. vanitasvitae has left
  280. vanitasvitae has left
  281. Dave has left
  282. Dave has left
  283. ralphm has left
  284. dwd has joined
  285. Dave has left
  286. Dave has left
  287. dwd has left
  288. ralphm has left
  289. Tobias has joined
  290. dwd has joined
  291. dwd has left
  292. daniel has left
  293. daniel has left
  294. daniel has left
  295. Ge0rG has joined
  296. daniel has left
  297. Dave Time, gentlemen, please.
  298. Dave 1) Role Call
  299. Ge0rG .o/
  300. Dave daniel, Kev SamWhited ?
  301. daniel here
  302. SamWhited I'm here
  303. Kev I'm here.
  304. Kev At least in body, if not in mind.
  305. Ge0rG 🙋
  306. Dave 2) Extrcting chunks of XEPs
  307. Dave Actually, no.
  308. Dave 2) For fork's sake, can somebody else take the minutes?
  309. Dave (Found my agenda copy)
  310. Dave Anyone want to do the minutes?
  311. Ge0rG Alright.
  312. SamWhited While I normally would, I have a hard time focusing on minutes and paying attention, so I don't like to do it for meetings I'm participating in
  313. Dave Ta. I should try to be more forthright on the list.
  314. Dave SamWhited, Me neither.
  315. Kev I can only do it if I'm chairing, so the meeting naturally pauses when I need it to.
  316. Ge0rG Me neither, but we need a volunteer.
  317. Dave SamWhited, I tend to do them afterward then, but they're never quite the same.
  318. Dave OK.
  319. SamWhited Yah, I don't like doing it afterwards because I always end up having questions, context goes missing, etc. anyways, thanks Ge0rG
  320. Dave 3) Good Idea Extraction Kev suggested (on the list I think) that extracting good ideas from otherwise out of date XEPs might be useful, in the context of XEP-0013. I wanted to explore this idea for 5 minutes to see if this seems sensible, and figure out what our next steps might be.
  321. Kev In the context of 13 I think the new XEP becomes:
  322. Ge0rG I don't actually think that it is a good idea for the specific 0013 case.
  323. Kev 2.7 Removing All Messages The user removes all message by sending the "purge" command: Example 13. User Requests Removal of Offline Messages <iq type='set' id='purge1'> <offline xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/offline'> <purge/> </offline> </iq> If the requester is a JID other than an authorized resource of the user, the server MUST return a <forbidden/> error. If the requester is authorized but the node does not exist, the server MUST return a <item-not-found/> error. Otherwise, the server MUST remove all messages and inform the user: Example 14. Server Informs User of Successful Purge <iq type='result' to='romeo@montague.net/orchard' id='purge1'/>
  324. Dave So I spotted another case of this, which is that eSessions has what appears to be a perfectly reasonable full-stanza encryption definition.
  325. Kev Job done.
  326. Kev (Not quite job done, but bloody close)
  327. Ge0rG Kev: but race conditions!
  328. SamWhited In this case I don't like the idea very much and still think we just need to deprecate the whole old XEP. However, it would get rid of all the other stuff and possibly reduce confusion, so I'm not against it.
  329. Ge0rG I'm in favor of killing 13 once we have a way to properly do MAM without offline.
  330. Dave Anyone want to volunteer for the XEP-0013 case?
  331. daniel wasn't my idea of putting current mam settings in disco info rejected because people didn't like 13's purge?
  332. Ge0rG 13 is not a way to properly do it.
  333. Dave Ge0rG, Sure. But it's better than nothing, and extracting it means we can ditch the rest (I think).
  334. daniel without that i don't see how we can savefly purge anyway
  335. daniel no matter if that's actual xep13 or xep405 purge
  336. SamWhited Maybe that section could be moved into MAM as a "this XEP is deprecated, but if people are still supporting it you might want to do this to clear" note? That would continue to be useful even if a new mechanism was introduced later.
  337. Dave SamWhited, I'd rather a new XEP, to shoehorning things into MAM.
  338. Kev Something better than -13's "purge offline" is even better, naturally. Like "Disable offline until this session ends" or something.
  339. Ge0rG daniel: I haven't had time to think through the implications of your proposal yet.
  340. SamWhited It seems to only affect MAM, no? That's when you're going to need to do this workaround, so it seems worth having it in the thing you're already reading that's going to require this
  341. Ge0rG Kev: what about adding to MAM: "if a client performs a MAM query before sending initial presence, no offline messages will be sent"
  342. daniel Ge0rG, just not sending them will make them pile up though
  343. Kev Ge0rG: That works if it's "and they're purged", I think.
  344. Ge0rG daniel: on a MAM server, the offline messages queue should be merely a pointer into the archive
  345. Ge0rG MattJ had an interesting idea with maintaining per-client offline-message pointers
  346. daniel Ge0rG, should…
  347. Dave Not wishing to stop this discussion, but I'd like to bring the discussion around somewhat.
  348. Ge0rG Dave: do you have other cased for extracting goo ideas from bad XEPs?
  349. Ge0rG Dave: do you have other cases for extracting good ideas from bad XEPs?
  350. Dave In principle, if we want to deprecate a XEP which still has a single widely used task within it, is our current recommendation that we extract that useful portion into a new XEP?
  351. Dave Ge0rG, eSessions full stanza encryption?
  352. Holger Blocking non-contacts from 0016?
  353. Kev If it wasn't Draft, I'd suggest cutting the other stuff from the XEP. But I don't think that's appropriate at Draft.
  354. SamWhited Depends on the situation, I don't think we can make a general statement here
  355. Ge0rG Kev: how is forking a part of a Draft into a new XEP and deprecating the Draft better?
  356. Dave OK, I don't think we're coming to a conclusion here.
  357. Kev I don't think there's a general conclusion to come to, other than 'it's an option'.
  358. Dave Which isn't a bad thing, indeed.
  359. Dave So, moving on:
  360. Dave 4) Dusty Drafts Note thread - Sam wanted to place this on the agenda.
  361. SamWhited Can we decide what to do in this specific place before we move on?
  362. Kev My preference would be a 'good' fix, and get rid of all of 13.
  363. Ge0rG what Kev said
  364. Kev If we can't do that, just keeping that one bit of 13 alive through a new XEP would work for me.
  365. Ge0rG recycling that bit of 13 is bad.
  366. Lance has left
  367. Ge0rG it's a shortcut that's going to bite users.
  368. Dave I don't have a strong preference here, though currently we're stuck in Clausevitz's dilemma.
  369. Dave Right, I'm going to move on.
  370. Ge0rG I don't want to leave something behind where in a decade, people will have to draw complex flow-charts on a huge flipboard to understand how to correctly disable offline messaging for a MAM client
  371. SamWhited Proposal: 1. add a note to MAM saying "you might need a workaround from this XEP because some legacy systems are still doing this", 2. deprecate the old XEP, 3. wait for someone to come up with a better solution.
  372. SamWhited 4. remove the notice from MAM and depend on the new thing.
  373. Kev I'm not sure it's a case of legacy systems. Offline messages haven't been deprecated or anything.
  374. SamWhited Still doing partial 0016, I mean.
  375. Kev But other than working, that seems like a reasonable enough approach to me, I guess. Pointing to a deprecated XEP from a Draft one seems odd, but it's likely to be stable.
  376. Zash Offline messages aren't technically a spec, right?
  377. Kev *than wording
  378. daniel interestingly the request mam purges offline messages still breaks the case where the user has disabled mam for themselves. because we make a request. that request will have an empty result but offline messages will be gona anyway
  379. daniel so it doesn't really matter if you purge explictiy or implicitly
  380. Dave Really moving on, please.
  381. Dave 4) Dusty Drafts Note thread - Sam wanted to place this on the agenda.
  382. Dave So we've a bunch of Draft XEPs that haven't been touched in years.
  383. Kev I think you want each XEP as a Council agendum for CFE.
  384. SamWhited CFE?
  385. Kev Call For Experience.
  386. Kev Last Call, but for Final.
  387. Dave That'd be to move to Final. But I'd have thought many of them should be moving to Deprecated.
  388. Kev I was thinking we'd discuss CFEing each, and when we decide 'no', we'd then vote on deprecated, but whatever.
  389. Dave Oh, I can do that.
  390. Ge0rG Sounds good to me. CFE -> deprecated|final
  391. Dave If everyone's happy with that concept, we can do that next week?
  392. Kev WFM
  393. SamWhited We don't need to actually issue a CFE for some of these do we? I feel like a few of them are obvious
  394. SamWhited s/obvious/uncontroversial/
  395. Kev SamWhited: For deprecating, or going to Final?
  396. Kev We have to CFE if we're going to Final.
  397. SamWhited For deprecating
  398. Dave SamWhited, We wouldn't be CFEing any we want to deprecate.
  399. Kev No, that's what I was (trying to) say.
  400. Ge0rG So we need to decide which ones to CFE.
  401. Kev We ask "Shall we CFE?" for each one, and when Council says "No", we then say "Shall we deprecate then?" and we say "Yes".
  402. SamWhited ahh, I see, we don't actually go to CFE. Yah, that seems sensible.
  403. Dave What Kev says seems reasonable to me.
  404. Kev Otherwise we have a discussion about which one we should CFE and which we should vote to deprecate, and this just seemed cleaner/quicker.
  405. Dave But, we'll all need to be prepared on this one, so please do ensure you're ready to vote in the meeting next week.
  406. Dave (Otherwise this could drag on for a month...)
  407. SamWhited We could probably vote on at least two of them right now, I suspect.
  408. Dave Can everyong commit to that?
  409. daniel wfm
  410. Kev I wouldn't want to vote on anything without reading the XEP first, so wouldn't like to vote on anything today.
  411. Dave Great.
  412. Kev But yes, my general policy is Wednesday morning I spend reviewing stuff that's on the Agenda before Council.
  413. Ge0rG +1 for vote next week
  414. SamWhited Really? Because SOAP and Internet Metadata seem like obvious candidates to deprecate, we might as well get those off the table
  415. Dave Kev, I'll get the next agenda out in advance properly.
  416. Kev SamWhited: Except there's interesting stuff in SHIM :)
  417. Lance has joined
  418. Dave SamWhited, I'm willing to bet SHIM is used for vital stuff in pubsub. And I dislike the protocol.
  419. Dave OK.
  420. SamWhited Just SOAP then
  421. Dave 5) AOB
  422. Dave Anything else?
  423. Ge0rG I've got some
  424. Dave SamWhited, I've been to FOSDEM, SOAP is very much deprecated already it seems.
  425. SamWhited Right, so let's go ahead and formalize that and have less to do next week
  426. Dave Ge0rG, Shoot.
  427. Ge0rG 5.1: I'd like to re-call the MUC rewriting @id's discussion from https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2014-July/028988.html
  428. Ge0rG Back then, there were voices against doing so, and now we ended up with origin-id, which is supposed to work around broken MUCs, but doesn't work in practice anyway.
  429. Lance has left
  430. Lance has joined
  431. Ge0rG So I'd like to get the wording (final suggestion at the bottom of https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2014-July/028996.html) into 0045.
  432. Ge0rG | "The service SHOULD reflect the message with the same 'id' that was | generated by the client. If the client did not provide an 'id', the | server MAY generate one 'id' and use it for all reflections of the | same message (e.g. using a UUID as defined in RFC 4122 [18])."
  433. Dave Ge0rG, Can you run up a specific patch to vote on for next week?
  434. Ge0rG Dave: I can put the above sentence into a PR, if you wish so.
  435. Ge0rG I'm aware that this is changing a Draft, but it's reflecting what most implementations are doing anyway.
  436. Ge0rG I've got more AOBs.
  437. Dave Ge0rG, Keep going, then. :-)
  438. Ge0rG Flow said today that <origin-id/> was supposed as a MUC workaround. With 5.1 addressed, I'd like to remove <origin-id/>
  439. Ge0rG (this being 5.2)
  440. Kev Ge0rG: If you're proposing text that breaks MUC, please note that in that text.
  441. Kev (I actually think a disco feature might be appropriate)
  442. Dave Ge0rG, Again, I'd like to see a specific PR to vote on, but given 5.1 I'd see 5.2 as desirable.
  443. Ge0rG and 5.3: RFC 6120 does mandate that if a stanza has an ID, it should be unique globally or in the current session. As we are using @ids end-to-end, the session limitation doesn't make sense. And when we send an error, we must return the original ID, for which we can't guarantee anything
  444. Ge0rG Kev: that was suggested some months ago as well. Should it be on the MUC service or on the individual MUC JID? What would you like it to be called? <will-not-break-ids>?
  445. Kev Ge0rG: We've always assumed that what this really means is that between two JIDs they'll be unique, and glossed over that this also isn't really true.
  446. Kev Ge0rG: Can out of band the details, and get something I'm happy with, I think.
  447. Ge0rG Kev: I'd be glad to get your input on this, even in short form.
  448. Kev Sure, but out of band, so the meeting can stop overrunning :)
  449. Ge0rG I'm sure I had another AOB, but I forgot to write about it to standards@
  450. Dave Ge0rG, Your 5.3 doesn't seem to be more than a statement. But if you'd like to vote on things, next meeting, I'm entirely happy to have these raised and discussed on the mailing list. :-)
  451. Ge0rG maybe it was about more feedback regarding the non-dataforms extension of 401, but Kev made a good point on that on list
  452. Dave 6) Next Meeting
  453. Dave Same Time Next Week?
  454. daniel Wfm
  455. Kev WFM
  456. SamWhited WFM
  457. Dave Lovely.
  458. Ge0rG I can't guarantee yet.
  459. Ge0rG Will be on mobile probably, but I'll try hard.
  460. Dave Ge0rG, If we're going to run through these Draft XEPs, it'd be really useful to have you around.
  461. Ge0rG Dave: I know.
  462. Dave OK.
  463. Dave 7) Ite, Meeting Est.
  464. Dave Thanks all.
  465. Kev Thanks all.
  466. Ge0rG Thanks
  467. Kev Ge0rG: I suggest something like urn:...stable-id as the feature, on the MUC itself.
  468. Ge0rG Kev: that means we need to disco#info each MUC, as opposed to each MUC domain, right?
  469. Kev And then some text that says something like "MUST have a stable id, advertised with ...stable-id.... Previous versions of this spec didn't have this requirement, and so some deploments might not follow this rule".
  470. Ge0rG disco#items/disco#info on your own domain's services is free essentially
  471. Ge0rG Kev: thanks!
  472. Kev The disco feature is kinda assuaging my guilt at making a breaking change to a Draft XEP, as much as anything.
  473. Kev I'm not actually sure that it's something people will genuinely use, because what do you do if it's not there? Stuff just breaks.
  474. Ge0rG Kev: I can promise I'm not going to use that disco#info feature.
  475. Kev But it could be put on the MUC domain and the MUC room, I guess, or just on the domain, or whatever.
  476. Ge0rG but then again, just opening tickets with broken implementations won't solve the problem either
  477. Kev I doubt it's something we're going to address in M-Link immediately, but we've got a rewrite of the MUC code going on at the moment for assorted reasons, including MIX, and I'm intending that to reflect ids.
  478. daniel has left
  479. peter has joined
  480. daniel has left
  481. ralphm has left
  482. daniel has left
  483. daniel has left
  484. daniel has left
  485. ralphm has joined
  486. daniel has left
  487. daniel has left
  488. Lance has left
  489. Lance has joined
  490. Lance has left
  491. Lance has joined
  492. daniel has left
  493. ralphm has joined
  494. Dave has left
  495. Dave has left
  496. daniel has left
  497. jonasw as much as I’d like to take minutes, the council meeting is unfortunately exactly during my commute until at least june :(
  498. dwd has joined
  499. daniel has left
  500. ralphm has left
  501. Kev has left
  502. daniel has left
  503. Kev has joined
  504. SamWhited has left
  505. daniel has left
  506. ralphm has joined
  507. ralphm has joined
  508. ralphm has joined
  509. ralphm has left
  510. ralphm has joined
  511. Lance has left
  512. Zash has left
  513. Lance has joined
  514. pep. has left
  515. daniel has left
  516. daniel has left
  517. ralphm has joined
  518. Zash has left
  519. Zash has joined
  520. Lance has left
  521. Lance has joined
  522. moparisthebest has left
  523. Lance has left
  524. moparisthebest has joined
  525. Zash has left
  526. Zash has joined
  527. Dave has left
  528. dwd has left
  529. dwd has joined
  530. dwd has left
  531. ralphm has joined
  532. Zash has left
  533. peter has left
  534. daniel has left
  535. jere has joined
  536. jere has joined
  537. Dave has left
  538. dwd has joined
  539. Lance has joined
  540. ralphm has joined
  541. ralphm has left
  542. ralphm has joined
  543. SamWhited has left
  544. Syndace has left
  545. Syndace has joined
  546. Lance has left
  547. ralphm has left
  548. ralphm has joined
  549. Syndace has left
  550. Syndace has joined
  551. ralphm has left
  552. ralphm has joined