Wednesday, March 21, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[15:28:05] <dwd> In my view, you can't add a bunch of stuff about SRV fallback into XEP-0368.
[15:29:08] <jonasw> dwd, not even if it defines new SRV records?
[15:29:12] <moparisthebest> dwd, the thing is, the SRV fallback, uh, algorithm?, affects how a server admin MUST set up their records
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[15:30:04] <moparisthebest> as I found out the hard way, dino tries xep-368, doesn't do alpn, and does not fall back if the TCP connection succeeds
[15:30:09] <moparisthebest> no one using dino can use my server then
[15:30:35] <jonasw> moparisthebest, I’m not sure why a server operator would give ALPN-requiring SRV records high priroity though
[15:30:42] <jonasw> that is, preference
[15:30:59] <dwd> Sure, but those records are defined in RFC 6120, and not in XEP-0368. Ideally, we'd merge '368 into an RFC update, mind, but the SRV fallback strategy applies to any SRV records, not just ;368 ones.
[15:31:00] <moparisthebest> because I prefer them to connect that way first, it works in all my other clients :)
[15:31:00] <jonasw> putting them with low preference in the list would work for the case where 5222 is filtered, wouldn’t it?
[15:32:38] <moparisthebest> dwd, well sure but more to say 'if you implement 368, you MUST implement SRV fallback like so...'
[15:32:47] <moparisthebest> that wouldn't be appropriate?
[15:33:18] <moparisthebest> and I agree re: RFC update, but until then, it should be specified *somewhere*
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[15:34:24] <Zash> Is there not precedent in writing down things in XEPs that are later rolled into RFC updates?
[15:34:58] <Kev> There is, but in this case it's something that implementing just the RFC won't be able to connect to at all.
[15:35:23] <Kev> We can't really have things in SRV records that connect ok at the TCP level but then fail for 6120.
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[15:36:02] <jonasw> Kev, they don’t fail for rfc6120
[15:36:18] <jonasw> because RFC 6120 doesn’t konw a thing about TLS over XMPP
[15:36:21] <Kev> > as I found out the hard way, dino tries xep-368, doesn't do alpn, and does not fall back if the TCP connection succeeds
> no one using dino can use my server then
[15:36:31] <Kev> Ah, ok.
[15:36:37] <Kev> So this isn't SRV fallback, it's 368 fallback.
[15:36:41] <jonasw> Kev, yeah, but that’s because dino fails to implement xep-0368 (by adding ALPN) but still tries XEP-0368 records first.
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[15:36:58] <dwd> Welcome to write a SRV fallback strategy in a new XEP. Just not in '368.
[15:37:00] <moparisthebest> Kev, no it's SRV fallback in general, the rules are not defined
[15:37:14] <jonasw> moparisthebest, but technically there would be no issue to let clients prefer the 5222 method, would there?
[15:37:48] <dwd> Kev: It's not specific to '368 direct TLS SRV records.
[15:37:53] <Holger> jonasw: ALPN is a SHOULD in 0368.
[15:37:56] <moparisthebest> other than then they would try that first, might be a bit slower, I wouldn't prefer it
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[15:38:20] <jonasw> moparisthebest, okay, so it’s actually a configuration issue at your side, IMO
[15:38:20] <moparisthebest> all I'm saying is the way you set up records depends on SRV fallback behavior, 368 or not, it just happens to matter more with 368
[15:38:37] <moparisthebest> or be more visible
[15:38:38] <jonasw> preferring a 443-multiplexing-hack over something which works with all clients seems broken to me.
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[15:39:35] <moparisthebest> so I'd probably want to put this in 368, or create a new SRV fallback XEP, and make 368 depend on it
[15:39:42] <moparisthebest> would the second be ok if you don't like the first?
[15:40:01] <Holger> Why not make ALPN a MUST?
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[15:40:31] <moparisthebest> various reasons, still support isn't widespread, but also privacy reasons
[15:40:56] <Holger> (I don't like ALPN at all, but that SRV fallback seems even uglier to me.)
[15:41:23] <moparisthebest> ALPN support is far better in 2018 than it was in 2015
[15:41:52] <moparisthebest> well again SRV fallback is an issue without 368/alpn too
[15:41:56] <dwd> moparisthebest: Not sure that 368 needs to depend on it at all, really.
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[15:43:37] <jonasw> moparisthebest, how is it an issue without 368/alpn?
[15:44:21] <moparisthebest> just one example of many, you have multiple servers for redundancy
[15:44:52] <moparisthebest> and your top priority one messes up, has wrong certificate, accepts the connection but the xmpp server is messed up, any number of ways
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[15:45:08] <moparisthebest> now nothing falls back to the other ones, oops you actually have no redundancy
[15:45:34] <Holger> Should we fall back if everything succeeds up to the bind request?
[15:45:47] <moparisthebest> I think I covered a few such scenarios in my email, I remember the BGP one :P
[15:45:54] <Kev> As I mentioned on list, I think, things can go wrong post-bind too.
[15:46:06] <dwd> Fair warning: I'm going to shut you all up in fifteen for the Council meeting, BTW.
[15:46:29] <Kev> Yay.
[15:46:31] <moparisthebest> yea I don't know the exact point we define as 'no more fallback', it seems clearer on c2s to me than s2s
[15:46:39] <dwd> But if somebody wants to hang about and do the minutes...
[15:46:45] <dwd> (Since you're all here).
[15:46:50] <moparisthebest> but right now it's totally ambiguous/wrong in the RFC
[15:46:56] <SamWhited> Please hang around and do the minutes; live minutes are the best minutes!
[15:47:15] <dwd> I can't do them this time; I'm on a train - and since this train gets into Paddington at 16:30, I'm on a hard stop for the meeting.
[15:47:52] <moparisthebest> but the general council consensus seems to be defining SRV fallback should be new xep?
[15:48:01] <moparisthebest> if so, I'll try to find time to work on that
[15:48:21] <Kev> I think a new XEP seems most appropriate here.
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[15:49:14] <moparisthebest> that's fair, will be easiest to work out the details there too
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[15:49:46] <SamWhited> Having it in 0368 seems fine to me, but we probably want to work out the details somewhere else first.
[15:49:54] <SamWhited> Since 0368 is in draft.
[15:51:03] <moparisthebest> at a basic level, if you stop at TCP connection, or any place before at least validating the certificate, an attacker controlling a path to any higher priority server can prevent a successful connection, and that's wrong
[15:51:09] <dwd> Oooh, every device I have just told me Council's in ten minutes. How exciting.
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[15:51:45] <dwd> SamWhited: I'd actually like to get everything sorted in XEPs, and we'll gather them into an RFC to update RFC 6120. (As in, an RFC that updates, not an RFC that obsoletes, unless the mythic XMPP2 stuff actually happens)
[15:52:01] <SamWhited> That makes sense too
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[15:52:31] <SamWhited> We could also combine with 0368 if/when the SRV fallback one goes to draft if it doesn't look like an RFC is going to happen.
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[15:55:39] <dwd> It might *even* be worth doing this straight into an Internet Draft... We'd get review from the IETF folks on this. I was chatting to Chris Newman at the weekend about XEP-0368 anyway. (Chris did STARTTLS back in the day, and now leans toward direct TLS).
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[15:56:51] <Ge0rG> STARTTLS always felt like a hack to me.
[15:57:08] <Zash> Direct TLS is the hack! :(
[15:57:08] <MattJ> What would you have done at the time?
[15:57:52] <MattJ> HTTPS spent a long time with the IP-per-host situation
[15:57:56] <Ge0rG> MattJ: what HTTPS did. One certificate per IP address.
[15:58:35] <dwd> Ge0rG: There were lots of reasons behind STARTTLS. None of them apply anymore (or the arguments are massively weakened)
[15:58:40] <SamWhited> Direct TLS just makes sense now that everything should be TLS… why use application level protocol negotiation to negotiate something at a lower level in the stack? Just do the lower level thing first, then do the application level thing.
[15:59:04] <Ge0rG> dwd: I know
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[15:59:46] <dwd> SamWhited: Sure... But back in the day, there was also Kerberos etc. It's just that now, Kerberos runs over TLS, instead of doing its own crypto.
[15:59:54] <Ge0rG> Now let me get started about how the CA industry and the NSA lobbied us security folks into believing that no security is better than opportunistic security.
[16:00:12] <Ge0rG> Or maybe we skip that for the Council meeting.
[16:00:28] <Kev> 'tis time.
[16:00:59] <dwd> 'tis time.
[16:00:59] <dwd> So I should warn you all that I'm on a train, therefore on a number of G's hopefully more than 3.
[16:01:07] <dwd> Ouch, lag.
[16:01:31] <Zash> Relativistic G-forces? Ouch indeed
[16:01:33] <Ge0rG> dwd: I can't imagine regular trains exceeding something like 1.5G
[16:01:51] <dwd> 1) Roll Call:
[16:01:51] <dwd> I'm for bacon and cheese, myself.
[16:02:07] <Ge0rG> bacon and cheese rolls? I'm in!
[16:02:20] <dwd> SamWhited, daniel?
[16:02:31] <SamWhited> I thought I was supposed to be the one to ask for cheese? We put cheese on (or in) everything.
[16:02:38] <Kev> I'm here, obviously.
[16:02:50] <SamWhited> I guess I'll have to ask for kippers just to even things out.
[16:02:55] <dwd> OK, I don't see daniel but maybe he'll join us later.
[16:03:20] <dwd> 2) Advance XEP-0066 to Final
[16:03:42] <Ge0rG> It looks like there was some major resistance to that.
[16:03:54] <Kev> It's not clear to me that we have satisfied the implementation requirements, even ignoring all the other issues onlist :)
[16:03:58] <dwd> I think I'm -1 on this, I don't think it meets the implementation criteria.
[16:04:19] <Kev> So I don't think it even needs a Council vote, I don't think it meets requirements for us to vote.
[16:04:23] <dwd> Votes, please?
[16:04:24] <Kev> But if it did, I'd be -1.
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[16:04:34] <Ge0rG> -1
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[16:05:05] <Ge0rG> I still think 66 is a good candidate for the "take the best parts and run" approach suggested some Meetings ago
[16:05:06] <dwd> Kev: I'm actually unclear who decides the implementation criteria, so I shall assume that's for us to veto if we believe it doesn't.
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[16:05:32] <dwd> SamWhited: Any vote?
[16:05:45] <SamWhited> It seems "good enough" to me, I'm +1. Although with the note that there is a bit of awkwardness and I agree that "take the best parts and run" sounds good too.
[16:06:38] <dwd> 3) Advance XEP-0048 to Final
[16:06:50] <Ge0rG> -1
[16:06:54] <dwd> Note there is a competing proposal in bookmarks2, we're voting on that later.
[16:07:12] <dwd> I'm -1 to advance, I'd rather move this to historical again.
[16:07:14] <SamWhited> +1 to freeze 0048 and new work can go into bookmarks2
[16:07:19] <Kev> Again, this wasn't clear that there are two independent implementations of what's specced in this version. Plus assorted issues with it.
[16:07:21] <Kev> (-1)
[16:07:24] <SamWhited> Although I also agree that this could be historical.
[16:07:24] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: freeze as final or as historical?
[16:07:40] <SamWhited> Freeze as in final, but if we want to have a historical vote I'd +1 that either way.
[16:08:02] <dwd> 4) Adopt Proposal "Bookmarks 2 (This Time it's Serious)"
[16:08:12] <Ge0rG> I'd like to see where Bookmarks2TTiS leads
[16:08:13] <Kev> Aside: I'd be in favour of revert 48 to iq:private, and make it Historical, and advance bookmarks2 in PIP.
[16:08:14] <SamWhited> +1 assuming "adopt" means "accept as experimental"
[16:08:22] <Kev> +1
[16:08:30] <Ge0rG> +1 to what Sam said
[16:08:44] <dwd> For the record, I'm happy if this changes title, but it'd be good if we changed '48's title at the same time...
[16:08:49] <dwd> ALso +1.
[16:08:54] <dwd> (Obv)
[16:09:13] <Kev> Suggestion: Change 48 to Bookmarks in Private Storage, and change TTiF to Bookmarks in Pubsub or something.
[16:09:26] <Kev> If we want to change titles.
[16:09:27] <SamWhited> I would be -1 to reverting it to private storage.
[16:09:52] <Kev> Even while also changing it to historical (documenting what's in place), when it's what's in place and PIP isn't?
[16:09:54] <dwd> SamWhited: Seems that's what's implemented, mind.
[16:10:12] <dwd> 5) XEP-0050 Ad-Hoc Commands: Clarify 'execute' actions equivalence.
[16:10:22] <Kev> There is a fundamental choice her.
[16:10:24] <Kev> There is a fundamental choice here.
[16:10:25] <dwd> This is PR #591 by the way.
[16:10:37] <dwd> And there is *also* #598 which competes.
[16:10:54] <Kev> Either change the text to be clear that there's a bad state, which is a clarification, or change the text to be sensible and avoid the bad state.
[16:11:07] <Kev> Flow's is the technically better change, I think, but is a breaking change to xep50.
[16:11:18] <Kev> Mine is just clarifying that if you do something in particular, you're being stupid.
[16:11:20] <dwd> Kev: Breaking in theory or practise?
[16:11:44] <Kev> dwd: This conversation came about because of people doing silly things. So I think in practice.
[16:11:57] <Kev> Although possibly not in an untenable way.
[16:11:59] <Ge0rG> Wouldn't it be better to fix things in practice then?
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[16:12:26] <Kev> Ge0rG: Well, that's why my text explains that doing this is broken. Which it always has been, people just don't realise.
[16:12:59] <Kev> I'm -1 on Flow's PR as-is, because I think it needs to explain the breaking change, but I could be persuaded either way on the basic approach. Noting that breaking changes to Draft XEPs we should be trying to avoid.
[16:13:10] <Ge0rG> Kev: if people didn't realize that, they probably never ran into the issue so fixing the XEP to have a better behavior won't make them run into even more things?
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[16:13:32] <SamWhited> I'm +1 to flows change, but also agree that an explanation would be useful.
[16:13:58] <Kev> SamWhited: What's the justification here for a breaking change to a Draft XEP?
[16:14:02] <dwd> Hmmm. So I think I'm +1 on one of these, but I'm not sure I care which...
[16:14:24] <Kev> I think I can be persuaded about making the breaking change, but I don't think I am yet.
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[16:14:33] <dwd> Kev: I'm not sure what this change is breaking. I mean, it means something works which previously did not.
[16:14:54] <Kev> dwd: It means behaviour will change.
[16:14:55] <Ge0rG> dwd: people following the "new" XEP could run into broken servers
[16:15:08] <dwd> Ge0rG: Ah, good point.
[16:15:19] <Kev> Where previously an illegal state would prevent you doing anything other than cancel, now it'll silently succeed in doing something that it wouldn't before.
[16:15:27] <Ge0rG> so I'm +1 if we add a note similar to what we did in 0045 last week
[16:15:44] <Ge0rG> I'm not insisting on a feature though.
[16:16:03] <dwd> Kev: I think that's a stretch for a claim this is breaking, though.
[16:16:17] <Kev> I think if you change the required behaviour of entities, that's a breaking change.
[16:16:21] <dwd> Yeah, I think I'm +1 on both of these.
[16:16:43] <SamWhited> It seems worth cleaning this up, and since it doesn't seem like it would be the end of the world we might as well do it right.
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[16:17:15] <Kev> Oh, wait wait.
[16:17:26] <Kev> I think both PRs might actually be wrong.
[16:17:33] <dwd> I'm waiting.
[16:17:38] <Kev> Because execute is used for setting a default.
[16:17:47] <dwd> You're going to veto your own PR?
[16:18:10] <Kev> So in Flow's case, I think this change means that where it was previously possible to set 'no default', now it forces a default to be set.
[16:18:34] <Kev> And in my case where I claim it's not a legal state, actually it is saying that there's no default action.
[16:18:41] <Kev> Except that's also contradictory.
[16:18:43] <dwd> Hmmmm.
[16:18:52] <Ge0rG> Now I'm completely lost.
[16:18:58] <Kev> Ge0rG: exactly
[16:18:59] <Kev> I propose
[16:19:04] <dwd> So in this case I'll change my vote to no vote, and can you take this to the list.
[16:19:17] <dwd> Anyone voting on this one?
[16:19:18] <Ge0rG> Kev: ELI5 on-list please.
[16:19:19] <Kev> We -1 both of these PRs now, and we each commit to reading this bit of the XEP *in detail* until we understand it properly, and then discuss properly next week.
[16:19:23] <SamWhited> yah, I'll also go on list since this wasn't my understanding
[16:19:30] <SamWhited> I'll re-read and make sure I didn't interpret something wrong.
[16:19:41] <Kev> Because I spent a good chunk of time on this and I think I got it slightly wrong last time.
[16:19:43] <Ge0rG> Kev: feel free to collaborate with flow so that you prepare a single PR :)
[16:20:22] <dwd> Ge0rG: SamWhited: You vetoing or what? I'm completely lost now.
[16:20:24] <Kev> This is a badly defined bit of spec.
[16:20:35] <Kev> I am -1 to both for now.
[16:20:42] <dwd> Kev: Badly specified bit of definition.
[16:20:51] <SamWhited> dwd: I am on list.
[16:20:56] <Ge0rG> dwd: on-list as well
[16:21:05] <dwd> Cool. For the next one too?
[16:21:10] <Ge0rG> Yes.
[16:21:16] <SamWhited> Yes, sorry, for both of these PRs.
[16:21:17] <Kev> Yes, on-list might work for me too, I guess, default to -1 if I don't reply :)
[16:21:33] <Ge0rG> Kev: is that a -0.5?
[16:21:41] <dwd> 7) XEP-0223: Add a warning about publish-options support

https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/608
[16:21:51] <Kev> Peter always liked it when Isode folks disagreed on list. I wonder what he thinks of Isode folks disagreeing with their own PRs :)
[16:21:57] <Kev> +1
[16:22:13] <dwd> This seems like a +1
[16:22:14] <Ge0rG> the PR comes with a notice about making discovery a MUST.
[16:22:18] <Ge0rG> Can we vote on that too?
[16:22:32] <dwd> Kev: I've rejected my own protoXEP once. I think I beat you. (So has Peter, mind)
[16:22:43] <SamWhited> +1
[16:22:46] <Ge0rG> +1
[16:22:51] <Kev> dwd: Yes, but that was a protoXEP, I don't remember anyone doing it for a PR (but might have).
[16:23:02] <Kev> As a note to Editor, PEP needs to change to Pubsub in this PR before merge, I think.
[16:23:07] <Kev> This isn't storing anything in PEP.
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[16:23:32] <SamWhited> oh good point; add a note on the PR?
[16:23:36] <jonasw> Kev: put that on the pr please
[16:23:41] <Kev> (Meaning is clear, but terminology is wrong, commenting now)
[16:24:15] <dwd> OK, I'm changing my mind and vetoing - yeah, I prefer MUST check discovery and I'm find with changing it to Pubsub.
[16:24:45] <Kev> I'm fine with just giving a provisional +1 to the PR after SHOULD/MUST and PEP/Pubsub, if that speeds things along.
[16:24:47] <Kev> dwd: You?
[16:24:48] <Ge0rG> dwd: couldn't you "+1 under the following conditions" instead?
[16:25:05] <dwd> Well, probably. But I'll hold a veto on it to make sure it happens. :-)
[16:25:14] <SamWhited> I also prefer MUST, I figured we might as well go ahead and merge this, but if a pr changing the wording can happen quickly that's fine too.
[16:25:28] <dwd> But yeah, I'll change to a +1 the moment the MUST happens.
[16:25:38] <dwd> 8) Next Meeting
[16:25:59] <Ge0rG> +1W?
[16:26:00] <dwd> I have a feeling that Europe changes timezone at the weekend, is that right?
[16:26:07] <Zash> Yes
[16:26:12] <Ge0rG> rumors!
[16:26:20] <Kev> Yes, Sunday at 1AM
[16:26:32] <Kev> Which is great news for those of us running a 10K Sunday morning.
[16:26:42] <dwd> Shall we shift it to 1500Z in that case for next week? (Sorry SamWhited).
[16:26:52] <Kev> Yes, please.
[16:27:13] <Ge0rG> So it will "move" to 1700 CEST?
[16:27:20] <dwd> Everyone else in agreement? (Just keeping it at the same time next week for Europeans, and messing Sam about)
[16:27:26] <dwd> Ge0rG: Erm. Yes?
[16:27:30] <SamWhited> I will most likely be getting off the bus at that time, so I'll be late probably
[16:27:35] <Ge0rG> +1
[16:28:13] <SamWhited> 15:15Z would probably be better, if we could do that.
[16:28:29] <Kev> That'd work for me next week.
[16:28:31] <dwd> OK, 1515Z then. I'm fine with that.
[16:28:38] <dwd> 9) AOB
[16:28:46] <dwd> Hopefully not because we're coming into Paddington.
[16:28:47] <Ge0rG> +1 for 1515Z
[16:28:57] <Ge0rG> I wanted to vote on abolishing Pidgin.
[16:29:06] <dwd> Ge0rG: Hmmm.
[16:29:13] <jonasw> ceterum pidgin delendam esse
[16:29:22] <jonasw> *ceterum censeo
[16:29:31] <dwd> Assuming none, or at least nothing serious...
[16:29:38] <dwd> 10) Ite, Meeting Est.
[16:29:46] <dwd> Thanks all.
[16:29:50] <Kev> Thanks all.
[16:29:54] <Ge0rG> I feel cheated now. I was told we can vote on *anything*!
[16:29:59] <dwd> (If nobody else is writing minutes, I'll get to them... eventually.)
[16:30:18] <dwd> Ge0rG: Yes, but not every vote will have any effect...
[16:30:57] <Ge0rG> dwd: sometimes it is purely about the signals we send and not about actual actions.
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[16:31:19] <Ge0rG> Thanks, though :)
[16:31:27] <SamWhited> Motion for all XSF business to be conducted in Latin from now on.
[16:31:54] <Ge0rG> Motion to change "Latin" to "Latin-15"
[16:32:18] <Ge0rG> Motion to change "Latin" to "Latin-9"
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[16:32:55] <moparisthebest> utf-16 with a BOM ?
[16:32:55] <Zash> Motion to deprecate the letter U
[16:33:07] <Zash> No need for U when we have V
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[16:33:10] <moparisthebest> ooh can you abolish BOMs
[16:33:17] <Zash> Don't yov agree?
[16:33:58] <Kev> Zash: But we don't have V.
[16:34:04] <Ge0rG> Obligatory reference to http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/twain.htm
[16:34:34] <Kev> (Welsh doesn't have K, V, X or Z)
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[16:35:01] <SamWhited> Or vowels, apparently.
[16:35:11] <Ge0rG> Now someone needs to make a cheap pun on the pronunciation of I, U and V.
[16:36:03] <moparisthebest> but re: starttls discussion I missed pre-meeting, it was 100% the correct way to go at the time, in my opinion
[16:36:21] <SamWhited> I love that possibly-Twin thing, I wonder if that was the inspiration for Guy Steel's "Growing a Language" talk (which is fantastic and you should watch it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
[16:36:25] <moparisthebest> in fact it seems to me IANA basically required it at the time for port assignments and such?
[16:36:27] <SamWhited> possibly-Twain, even.
[16:37:01] <moparisthebest> and today, it's worse than useless and everything should just be direct TLS, just something that changed meh
[16:37:37] <Ge0rG> moparisthebest: STARTTLS always was a dirty hack. It just happened to be the only viable dirty hack for some years
[16:39:18] <moparisthebest> yes, the only viable and officially IANA/IETF sanctioned hack
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[18:01:26] <Dave> I'm actually sitting next to its author now.
[18:01:45] <Dave> Chris recently wrote an I-D saying its time was passed, I think.
[18:01:45] <Zash> Wait wasn't IETF last week? Or is it now?
[18:01:56] <Dave> Now. I'm in the plenary.
[18:02:17] <Zash> My sense of time is weird.
[18:02:51] <Dave> Started last Saturday, mind.
[18:04:38] <moparisthebest> I thought I read that but can't find it now, all I can find is a lone blog post https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/starttls_considered_harmful
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[19:38:24] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[19:42:41] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:36:43] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:49:01] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:50:47] *** Dave has left the room
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[20:51:45] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:07:50] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:08:07] *** Holger has left the room
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[23:26:12] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:27:10] *** Dave has left the room
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[23:57:43] *** daniel shows as "online"