Wednesday, April 11, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[08:23:21] <Kev> Do we have agenda for today?
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[14:13:06] <moparisthebest> the proposal to write 2 MUC PRs I think
[14:13:23] <moparisthebest> the vote on whether someone should bother writing the PRs specifically :)
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[14:15:30] <Kev> Pretty sure im-ng should be on there too.
[14:15:37] <Kev> Or should have been last week, but wasn't.
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[14:25:05] <Dave> Kev, I've been busy, I do apologise. I'll knock this out. FWIW, im-ng was fractionally too late for last week, IIRC. Unless I'm thinking of the week before, and just forgot last week.
[14:25:14] <Kev> The latter.
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[14:35:20] <jonasw> +1 for the latter because I’m fairly certain that I didn’t do any editor work last week
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[14:44:17] <Dave> Oh. Whoops.
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[15:01:53] <Dave> Right, time.
[15:01:58] <Kev> Think so.
[15:02:04] <Dave> 1) Roll Call
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[15:02:23] <daniel> hi
[15:02:24] <Ge0rG> 🙋
[15:02:39] <Dave> SamWhited, ?
[15:02:49] <Dave> 2) Agenda Bashing
[15:03:07] <Dave> So I've not managed to do an Agenda this week, for which I apologise.
[15:03:07] <Kev> I would love to bash an Agenda.
[15:03:43] <Dave> I think we have two CFEs, Kev's IM-NG protoXEP, and... anything else?
[15:03:48] <jonasw> .oO(piñarta agenda?)
[15:03:54] <jonasw> Dave, the GC1.0 abolishment vote
[15:04:04] <Dave> Oh, yes, of course.
[15:04:14] <Ge0rG> I also have a proposal for MUC self-ping
[15:04:16] <daniel> i want to register the muc config option for mam
[15:04:31] <daniel> or at least get the process going / clarify what the process is exactly
[15:05:30] <Dave> OK - I'm going to guess that between the protoXEP, CFEs, and GC-1.0 we'll probably fill the half hour, but we'll see.
[15:05:49] <SamWhited> sorry, I'm here
[15:06:06] <Ge0rG> No need to be sorry.
[15:06:19] <Ge0rG> Dave: 3) minute taker?
[15:06:39] <Dave> Ge0rG, Good plan.
[15:06:42] <Dave> 3) Minute Taker
[15:06:51] <Dave> Either Tedd Sterr will do it or else I will.
[15:07:40] <Ge0rG> It looks like the abolition of Pidgin is a Board agendum now.
[15:07:54] <Dave> :-)
[15:07:55] <Ge0rG> <https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425>
[15:08:14] <daniel> ,oO(can you just get rid of pidgin be removing session support on the server?)
[15:09:16] <Ge0rG> daniel: it will probably break other clients as well
[15:09:31] <Dave> Right, bear with me while I figure out which CFEs have completed.
[15:10:16] <jonasw> Dave, 0131, 0141, 0229 AFAICT
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[15:11:01] <Dave> jonasw, Thanks.
[15:11:11] <Dave> So with that:
[15:11:16] <jonasw> (provided you already voted on 0092 and 0122)
[15:11:26] <Dave> 4) Advance XEP-0131 to Final
[15:11:29] <Dave> jonasw, Yes, we did.
[15:11:35] <jonasw> good
[15:11:54] <Dave> This one is SHIM, BTW.
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[15:12:24] <Kev> -1, doesn't have the implementations (and other reasons).
[15:12:51] <SamWhited> Also -1, this doesn't feel like it fits a need in the ecosystem and doesn't have the implementations. We should kill it instead.
[15:12:52] <Dave> I'm going to vote on-list for all of these, I warn in advance - however, in the case of SHIM I can't help feeling I'd *like* to ditch it but it's referred to by other XEPs.
[15:13:00] <jonasw> isn’t it used by PubSub?
[15:13:17] <Dave> jonasw, Pubsub and XEP-0149.
[15:13:29] <daniel> i actually implemented this once. but i feel like this is so niche that who ever needs it can just make up their own syntax and/or use the deprecated one. so -1
[15:13:33] <Ge0rG> I've had a tough fight against generic headers in 0363. -1
[15:14:30] <Dave> 5) Advance XEP-0141 to Final
[15:14:44] <Dave> Data forms layout, BTW.
[15:14:53] <Kev> -1 doesn't have the implementations
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[15:15:26] <Ge0rG> is that referenced from others as well?
[15:16:06] <Dave> Ge0rG, Nope. I've seen it used, though, in XEP-0346 implementations.
[15:16:24] <daniel> -1
[15:16:49] <Ge0rG> -0
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[15:17:15] <Kev> I'd like to advance 141, but we didn't have the numbers in the CfE, that I saw.
[15:17:19] <Kev> Someone tell me I'm wrong, by all means.
[15:17:21] <SamWhited> -1, same reason as Kev, but also think forms is too complex already and we don't need to shoehorn layout information into the document structure.
[15:17:41] <Dave> 5) Advance XEP-0229 to Final
[15:17:45] <Dave> LZW stream compression
[15:18:04] <Dave> I do have a vote for this: -1 for implementations and also I don't see a driving need for it.
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[15:18:25] <SamWhited> I have used this and have implementations, but it's underspecified so -1.
[15:18:29] <Kev> -1
[15:18:35] <daniel> 0
[15:18:46] <Ge0rG> -1 for the security issues of mixing different data classes into a compressed stream
[15:19:17] <daniel> Ge0rG, that argument applies to compression in general though?
[15:19:27] <daniel> not to that particular xep
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[15:19:43] <SamWhited> Either way, we need to figure out what we're doing with 0138 and then this should probably just follow whatever happens with that.
[15:20:05] <Ge0rG> daniel: it applies to compression in general and thus to this XEP by extension
[15:20:07] <Dave> 6) Adopt "IM Routingng"
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[15:20:20] <Dave> ProtoXEP: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/im-ng.html
[15:20:33] <Kev> This is clearly going to need to adapt as we make further decisions, but I'd like to get it under XSF control.
[15:20:34] <Ge0rG> How could I have missed that submission? on-list
[15:20:44] <Kev> So I'm +1.
[15:20:51] <daniel> Ge0rG, I'm just saying it feels 'unfair' to punish the lzw xep instead of 138
[15:21:14] <Dave> I worry that this might end up the bike shed of bike sheds, but I'm not going to veto, so 0.
[15:21:17] <Ge0rG> daniel: I agree. Please put 0138 on the next agenda.
[15:22:05] <Kev> Dave: It might, but I think it's something we have to work on, and there was reasonable (not particularly rough) consensus at the Summit, I think.
[15:22:43] <daniel> +1 to get it under xsf control. but i'm not really sure i like it in it's current form
[15:22:44] <Ge0rG> I've heard somebody gave a speech, or somesuch.
[15:22:59] <SamWhited> +1
[15:23:31] <Kev> daniel: Sure, that's fine (not liking the current form) - but I thought step one was getting some words down that people can disagree with.
[15:23:36] <Dave> 7) Kill GC-1.0
[15:23:47] <Dave> Kev, "Get a number". :-)
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[15:24:06] <Ge0rG> obviously +1
[15:24:20] <Kev> I am, in principle, ok with removing gc1 from 45, but only if we can do so in a way that makes everything better.
[15:24:20] <daniel> link to pr?
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[15:24:36] <Kev> daniel: There's no PR, this is just raising the idea up a flagpole and seeing who salutes.
[15:24:42] <Dave> daniel, There's no PR, so this is a vote on the principle.
[15:24:49] <Kev> i.e. this is a vote on position, rather than standards advancement.
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[15:25:12] <Ge0rG> I promise to prepare a PR if this vote is accepted. Although I don't promise *when* I will be able to submit it.
[15:25:15] <SamWhited> I am tentatively +1 on the general idea; can't hurt to see a PR either way.
[15:25:47] <Kev> I'm fine with seeing a PR, and if you *can* produce one that doesn't break anything I'll be ok with it, but I think that's a big ask and I'm not sure it's possible.
[15:25:50] <Dave> I'm fine with removing "bare" presence as a mechanism for joining a chatroom. However, I worry about what existing clients would do is they fall out of sync and *inadvertantly* join using GC-1.0, and have that then perform a different action.
[15:26:02] <Ge0rG> We have ~two weeks worth of numbers from prosody.im and yax.im, showing that there was only one client not supporting MUC protocol
[15:26:21] <Dave> Ge0rG, Right, but that is a different problem to the one I outline.
[15:26:29] <Kev> Ge0rG: Yes, that's why I'm in principle ok with the idea, as long as it can be done such that nothing existing breaks.
[15:27:01] <Ge0rG> Dave: yes. My position is that it's better to uncover to the user that they were gone than to silently re-join a MUC and probably missing a part of history.
[15:27:04] <Dave> Ge0rG, In any case, I think I'm keen to see what this would do in practise, so +1 to someone else writing a PR. :-)
[15:27:19] <daniel> +1
[15:27:49] <Dave> Ge0rG, Ah. So yes. But that presumes a client will gracefully handle an unexpected join rejection to a presence stanza they didn't think was a join in the first place.
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[15:28:20] <Ge0rG> Dave: I hope that sane clients will handle a presence error from a MUC as "you are not there anymore"
[15:28:26] <Dave> Ge0rG, As such, when I see what you're aiming to do, it might nudge me into a couter-proposal.
[15:28:44] <Dave> Ge0rG, That is extremely optimistic of you. Possibly right, too. But certainly optimistic.
[15:28:46] <Ge0rG> Dave: I don't have a proposal beyond what I wrote on standards@
[15:29:14] <Ge0rG> Dave: I'm not sure I'm sane enough to fix insane clients. Nor that I want to volunteer my sanity for that goal.
[15:29:59] <Dave> Ge0rG, Sure. But it might be fun to trial any change and see what clients do.
[15:30:13] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm not sure whether your position boils down to a -1 essentially, because I can't fix what is broken with MUCs getting out of sync, and GC1 is just a cover-up for it.
[15:30:18] <Dave> Anyway, as I say, I'm in favour of doing this given your evidence thus far.
[15:30:44] <Kev> Ge0rG: I am trying to be open that I think it's an impossible job, while not wanting to stop you trying if you're convinced you can.
[15:31:21] <Ge0rG> Kev: I'm pretty sure I can't fulfill your requirement. And I still think that it's based on a flawed assumption
[15:31:49] <Dave> SamWhited, I don't think I have a vote from you on this one.
[15:31:50] <Kev> My requirement basically being that it's a Draft XEP so we shouldn't break anything that's currently deployed against it?
[15:32:14] <SamWhited> > I am tentatively +1 on the general idea; can't hurt to see a PR either way.
[15:32:21] <Dave> SamWhited, Oh, sorry - just spotted that.
[15:32:22] <Kev> I think it'll come down to what breaks and where.
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[15:32:39] <Ge0rG> Kev: do you consider sending an error to non-joined clients a "break"?
[15:32:51] <Dave> So we're unanimously in favour of Georg writing a PR we can vote on. :-)
[15:33:05] <Kev> Ge0rG: Maybe, depending how clients react to it.
[15:33:23] <Kev> If all clients do a sensible thing, I can probably be talked into it.
[15:33:28] <Ge0rG> Kev: Alright. Could you please perform a study of the clients that you care about?
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[15:33:56] <Kev> Not likely.
[15:33:58] <Ge0rG> I mean, realistically we'll have to reduce the subset of clients.
[15:34:03] <Dave> Ge0rG, I know I don't have access to all the clients I'd want to know about.
[15:34:10] <Ge0rG> I suggest we test all clients that comply with this year's Compliance Suite.
[15:34:18] <daniel> lol
[15:34:45] <Dave> Ge0rG, I don't know how clients I actually work with would react.
[15:34:54] <Dave> Anyway, we've voted, so:
[15:35:01] <Dave> 8) AOB
[15:35:24] <daniel> whats the process for registering a new muc config option?
[15:35:31] <Ge0rG> I'd like to put the MUC self-ping suggestion up for a vote-on-principal
[15:35:40] <daniel> can we take a vote and order the registry to include it?
[15:35:45] <Ge0rG> I'd like to put the MUC self-ping suggestion up for a vote-on-principle
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[15:36:03] <Ge0rG> The one from here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-April/034763.html
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[15:36:25] <daniel> (since changing the xep45 has been rejected by council members who still serve this year)
[15:36:26] <Dave> daniel, Do you know, I've actually no idea. I'll look into the process. I'd expect it's a matter of "document it".
[15:36:26] <Ge0rG> This one is at least less probable to break all clients.
[15:38:36] <Dave> daniel, I don't think "changing xep45" is quite the same as "adding a new option". Servers add new options all the time, so unless it's changing existing behaviour, a XEP defining the additional behaviour should be uncontentious.
[15:38:59] <Dave> Ge0rG, Looks fine to me. Feels like it could be documented in a new XEP, too.
[15:39:35] <Ge0rG> Dave: what's wrong with adding a use-case into 0045?
[15:39:42] <Kev> I'm fine with adding a self-ping to MUC to check you're there. I'm not ok with intercepting 199 pings to users and replying from the server.
[15:39:54] <Ge0rG> Kev: not to users, to yourself.
[15:40:04] <Dave> Kev, Not to users, to occupants.
[15:40:33] <Dave> Kev, You already have to implement vcard IQs, after all.
[15:40:35] <Kev> Only to your own occupant JID might be ok.
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[15:41:47] <daniel> i'm ok with specifying that a ping to self should be handled (and responded to) by the server
[15:42:46] <Dave> 9) Next Meeting
[15:42:52] <Dave> Same time next week?
[15:42:55] <SamWhited> WFM
[15:43:03] <Kev> WFM
[15:43:16] <daniel> wfm
[15:44:06] <Ge0rG> WFM
[15:44:06] <Dave> 10) Ite, Meeting est
[15:44:45] <Ge0rG> The self-ping-to-occupant was the only useful and O(1) way for a client to check whether it's still joined, anyway.
[15:45:07] <Dave> Once again, sorry for the disorganised lack of agenda,, and thanks for bearing with me.
[15:45:19] <Ge0rG> Dave: next time we expect an organised lack of agenda
[15:45:24] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:45:33] <Ge0rG> Thanks!
[15:45:41] <daniel> > I don't think "changing xep45" is quite the same as "adding a new option". Servers add new options all the time, so unless it's changing existing behaviour, a XEP defining the additional behaviour should be uncontentious.
well you vetod https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/204 last time. that’? what i meant by 'changing the xep'
[15:45:49] <daniel> (re config option for muc)
[15:46:01] <daniel> so apparently this is not the right way to do it
[15:46:17] <daniel> would you like me to create a full new xep just for this config option?
[15:46:49] <Dave> That was a long time ago, no wonder I'd forgotten.
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[15:48:38] <daniel> i would just like to find the 'correct way' and then just do it. instead of bike shedding it to death again
[15:51:46] <Dave> daniel, Registry is at https://xmpp.org/registrar/formtypes.html#http:--jabber.org-protocol-mucroomconfig and the submission process is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html#registrar-reg-formtypes-process
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[15:53:40] <daniel> and it's up to the registrar to decide whether to accept this?
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[17:12:04] <flow> daniel, appears so
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[19:16:03] *** Kev shows as "online"
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[19:39:35] *** Dave has left the room
[19:39:36] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[19:47:04] *** Dave shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
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[19:54:09] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[19:58:52] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:01:01] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:02:08] *** Dave shows as "online"
[20:02:26] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:02:28] *** peter shows as "online"
[20:02:50] *** daniel has left the room
[20:02:59] *** Dave has left the room
[20:03:14] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:12:39] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:15:05] *** Dave has left the room
[20:16:06] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:19:17] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:23:50] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:29:31] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[20:29:33] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
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[20:30:06] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[20:30:10] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[20:30:12] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:36:53] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:41:07] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:43:37] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:48:36] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
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[20:51:25] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:52:19] *** Dave has left the room
[20:52:28] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[20:53:36] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:53:39] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:53:45] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:58:05] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[20:58:09] *** peter shows as "online"
[20:58:25] *** Dave has left the room
[20:59:21] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:02:28] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:04:23] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:07:24] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:11:44] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:12:21] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:12:21] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:12:42] *** Dave has left the room
[21:12:52] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:13:20] *** ralphm has left the room
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[21:15:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:15:13] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:20:21] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:21:22] *** Dave has left the room
[21:22:17] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:22:21] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:23:30] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:24:35] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[21:26:03] *** Dave has left the room
[21:26:14] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:28:30] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[21:28:44] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:30:25] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:34:20] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
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[21:37:03] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:39:39] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:43:01] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:43:02] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:44:37] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
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[21:47:59] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:51:05] *** daniel has left the room
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[21:54:54] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:57:43] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:59:12] *** Dave has left the room
[22:00:11] *** Lance has joined the room
[22:00:11] *** Lance shows as "online"
[22:00:23] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:01:50] *** Dave has left the room
[22:02:21] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:03:43] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:09:40] *** Dave has left the room
[22:10:04] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:10:56] *** Dave has left the room
[22:11:29] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:12:14] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[22:12:55] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:14:25] *** Dave has left the room
[22:15:55] *** peter shows as "online"
[22:17:00] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:18:45] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:24:45] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:26:03] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:27:39] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:30:57] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:33:18] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:38:17] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:40:04] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:41:17] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:42:44] *** Lance has left the room
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[22:54:11] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
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[22:59:42] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[22:59:44] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:02:15] *** ralphm has left the room
[23:02:17] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[23:11:31] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[23:13:55] *** Dave has left the room
[23:14:12] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:14:49] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:19:42] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:20:18] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:20:20] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[23:21:11] *** peter shows as "online"
[23:25:25] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[23:25:29] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[23:25:29] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
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[23:33:39] *** Dave has left the room
[23:34:10] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:35:31] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[23:38:04] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:38:30] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[23:42:53] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:43:30] *** Dave shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[23:45:21] *** Dave has left the room
[23:45:32] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:47:42] *** Dave has left the room
[23:48:23] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[23:48:31] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:50:21] *** peter shows as "online"
[23:53:30] *** Dave shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[23:54:46] *** SamWhited has left the room
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[23:59:53] *** SamWhited has joined the room