Wednesday, April 18, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:59:56] <Dave> Afternoon all.
[15:00:51] <SamWhited> o/
[15:01:38] <Dave> So, it's time.
[15:01:52] <Dave> 1) Roll Call
[15:02:08] <Dave> SamWhited, daniel Kev?
[15:02:14] <Kev> Here.
[15:02:19] <Dave> (We seem to be a Ge0rG down)
[15:03:23] <Dave> Oh, and a daniel down as well?
[15:04:05] <Dave> Hmmm. Seems so. So we're at the minimum for quorum.
[15:04:24] <Dave> 2) Last Minute Agenda Bashing
[15:05:08] <Dave> So Tedd Sterr beat me to an agenda this week, which meant that I didn't really check if there was anything else to add to it. Is there?
[15:05:47] <SamWhited> Not that I'm aware of.
[15:06:19] <Dave> 3) XEP-0050 Execute Issue
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[15:06:31] <Ge0rG> Whoops, sorry.
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[15:07:04] <Dave> Kev, do you want to kick this one off?
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[15:07:35] <Kev> Not desperately. I'm waiting for everyone else to have digested it properly and to say something.
[15:07:56] <Kev> I'm assuming folks haven't.
[15:07:56] <Ge0rG> Kev: everyone else is waiting for your expert opinion
[15:08:17] <Kev> Ge0rG: As of quite a few weeks ago now, everyone else was going to go away and try to understand it.
[15:09:00] <Kev> This is gnarly, I don't think me just suggesting text and people voting based on it looking reasonable is the right thing here.
[15:09:08] <SamWhited> I have read back through this one now, but I also don't remember what the original problem was.
[15:09:36] <Kev> SamWhited: That you can have an illegal state because execute is overloaded in weird ways.
[15:09:45] <Dave> As I understand it, it's that there is a silly-state in XEP-0050 whereby Execute effectively points to an action that doesn't exist.
[15:10:01] <Kev> You have an execute action, but you also have an execute attribute that sets a default action.
[15:10:24] <Kev> And that default action with the execute attribute isn't to use the execute action, which might be invalid.
[15:10:56] <SamWhited> ah yes, thanks. I read back over this, I did not read back over the two proposed solutions from last time, I should probably have done that too.
[15:11:17] <Kev> Dave: It's slightly more complicated than that, because of the weird overloading.
[15:11:25] <Dave> So specifically, §3.4 is the weird state, right?
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[15:12:37] <Kev> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/598 was how I was trying to address this.
[15:12:46] <Dave> That is, the default for the "execute", which is a sort of action-alias, is "complete" unless any actions are specified, in which case it's "next", which is not always present.
[15:12:57] *SamWhited frantically reads this one and pretends he did it yesterday
[15:13:42] <Kev> Dave: Yes. Except that execute isn't really an action-alias, it's a default selected button on the form, and the execute action is just weird.
[15:13:58] <Kev> I tried to sort this out by tying the two together (see the first substantive line of the PR).
[15:14:55] <Dave> Kev, Now what i can't remember is why you weren't happy with your own PR.
[15:15:15] <Kev> Because of the way that execute and execute aren't currently the same thing.
[15:15:30] <Kev> And I want everyone to think carefully about whether my PR that tries to make execute and execute the same is going to break anything.
[15:15:53] <Kev> It wasn't that I believed my PR to be wrong, but that I think this one is gnarly and should have proper understand before folks vote.
[15:16:14] <Kev> It wasn't that I believed my PR to be wrong, but that I think this one is gnarly and should have proper understanding before folks vote.
[15:16:54] <Dave> Ah, I see.
[15:17:07] <Kev> Right now if you have execute='complete' and you run the execute command, what you run is 'next'.
[15:17:20] <Kev> And when you have no 'next' action that's clearly all sorts of messed up.
[15:17:21] <Dave> Wait, what?
[15:17:45] <Dave> If you have execute="complete", you run "complete", surely?
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[15:18:13] <Kev> Hahaha, why would you do that?
[15:18:16] <Dave> Oh. No, it's not is it?
[15:18:44] <Kev> No, if you have execute='complete', and there is no 'next' action, and you run 'execute' what you are doing is running the non-existent command 'next'.
[15:18:49] <SamWhited> This was part of the confusion last time too; I'm inclined to say that whatever the final PR does it should do everything in its power to simplify the logic here.
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[15:19:30] <Kev> SamWhited: I believe that's what my PR does. It would mean that where you have execute='complete', running <execute/> would be equivalent to <complete/>
[15:19:53] <Dave> Kev, OK. I now understand your PR in an entirely new light.
[15:20:19] <Kev> But this is a change to some pretty whacky implications and I want people to really understand what the issue is here before blithely accepting my suggestion based on believing that this bit of xep50 is less crazy than it really is :)
[15:20:28] <Dave> Kev, I also think it's potentially wrong. We should probably deprecate the execute action instaed.
[15:20:50] <Kev> Dave: I think that may well be the better solution.
[15:21:46] <Dave> So the case that concerns me is where execute="complete" but a next action exists; your proposal changes that I believe.
[15:21:55] <Kev> Exactly.
[15:22:09] <peter> OT: the other day I found my marked-up paper copy of XEP-0050 from ~8 years ago :-)
[15:22:43] <Kev> peter: Does it fix this? :)
[15:23:12] <Dave> OK, so yes, I think we should be deprecating the execute action on the basis that it doesn't do what I thought it did after several years.
[15:23:35] <SamWhited> That also seems like a good solution to me; especially since multiple people have been confused in a similar way here.
[15:23:43] <Dave> SamWhited, Indeed.
[15:23:46] <SamWhited> Unless peter's notes have an elegant solution written in the margin
[15:23:54] <peter> heh I'll take a look
[15:24:05] <Kev> Alas, the solution was too big to fit in the margin.
[15:24:08] <Dave> "There is a simple solution to this, but alas this margin is too small to contain it"
[15:24:14] <Dave> :-)
[15:24:33] <Dave> OK, let's move on.
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[15:24:57] <Dave> Actually, given the time, do we want to discuss stream compression at all?
[15:25:03] <Kev> Newp.
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[15:25:30] <SamWhited> I've got time today; but whatever you all want to do. I don't have much to say on the matter anyways.
[15:26:15] <Dave> Right, I think that's fine - we'll skip the remaining items. I'm not entirely sure what #577's status is anyway.
[15:26:33] <Dave> I'll commit to sorting that out for next week.
[15:27:06] <Dave> 6) Outstanding Votes
[15:27:21] <Dave> I'll sort mine out after the meeting - Ge0rG, do you have a view on im-ng?
[15:27:33] <Ge0rG> Dave: sorry, not yet
[15:27:51] <Dave> Ge0rG, OK. You've a week before it goes through anyway.
[15:27:55] <Ge0rG> I'm currently way over my head in a long-range home relocation
[15:28:03] <Dave> 7) AOB
[15:28:08] <Dave> Ge0rG, Exciting stuff.
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[15:29:03] <peter> Alas, my notes on XEP-0050 seem to be mostly editorial, with a bit of content about multi-stage vs. single-stage command sessions, and caching.
[15:29:12] <Dave> (Assuming no AOB)
[15:29:19] <Dave> 8) Next Meeting
[15:29:24] <Dave> Next week same time?
[15:29:38] <Kev> I'm almost certain not to make next week.
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[15:29:54] <Ge0rG> +1W should work for me
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[15:30:18] <Dave> SamWhited, still working for you?
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[15:31:38] <Dave> (Assuming so)
[15:31:44] <Dave> 9) Ite, Meeting Est.
[15:31:49] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:31:57] <Kev> I'm glad I was finally able to share the horror on 50.
[15:32:05] <Dave> Thanks all. Sorry for my disorganisation, I'll get things back on track for next week.
[15:32:26] <SamWhited> Sorry, got distracted. Works for me. Thanks all!
[15:32:37] <Dave> Kev, Thanks for your patience here. I'd clearly been missing the key issue for ages now.
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[18:31:35] <flow> > Kev> No, if you have execute='complete', and there is no 'next' action, and you run 'execute' what you are doing is running the non-existent command 'next'.
[18:32:45] <flow> Don't you run whatever execute points to in this case, e.g. 'complete'? Or am I missing something?
[18:33:23] <SamWhited> heh, that's what this whole discussion was about. You would think that, wouldn't you?
[18:34:24] <flow> Yeah, mostly from "The "execute" attribute defines which of the included actions is considered the equivalent to "execute" for this stage." in xep50
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[18:35:13] <flow> It's been a while that I looked into it, but I gave a comparision of Kev's and my suggestion at https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/591#issuecomment-373313491 from my POV
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[19:17:23] <Dave> flow, To my intense surprise, that's not what §3.4 actually says.
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[19:18:16] <Dave> flow, It says that "3. If there is an <actions/> element [...] The action "execute" is always allowed, and is equivalent to the action "next".
[19:19:25] <Dave> flow, Hence my thinking is that the "execute" action is a disaster, and we should deprecate it (ie, SHOULD NOT use the action "execute").
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[20:39:08] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:39:22] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[20:40:14] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:41:28] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:42:09] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
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[20:42:44] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:54:06] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[20:56:58] *** Kev shows as "away"
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[20:58:58] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[21:00:06] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:00:35] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:00:54] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:01:13] *** Dave has left the room
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[21:01:52] *** Remko has left the room
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[21:28:59] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
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[21:38:43] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:40:30] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:40:39] *** Dave has left the room
[21:41:04] *** Dave shows as "online"
[21:41:07] *** SamWhited has left the room
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[21:46:01] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:54:27] *** Tobias shows as "online"
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[22:00:36] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:10:26] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[22:17:19] *** Dave has left the room
[22:18:12] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:18:54] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:19:14] *** Dave has left the room
[22:19:32] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:20:17] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:21:32] *** Dave has left the room
[22:25:52] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:26:00] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:27:02] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:29:56] *** peter shows as "online"
[22:34:33] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:36:44] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[22:38:05] *** Dave has left the room
[22:38:05] *** Dave shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:39:39] *** Dave has left the room
[22:39:42] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:39:44] *** Dave has left the room
[22:40:07] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:40:40] *** Dave has left the room
[22:40:44] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[22:41:06] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[22:41:07] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:41:19] *** Dave has left the room
[22:41:55] *** Dave shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[22:43:08] *** Dave has left the room
[22:43:08] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:44:40] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:47:24] *** SamWhited has left the room
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[22:59:24] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[22:59:24] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[23:00:08] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[23:02:20] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[23:02:21] *** Dave has left the room
[23:02:22] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:03:31] *** Dave has left the room
[23:06:30] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:07:52] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:08:06] *** Dave has left the room
[23:08:07] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:08:20] *** SamWhited has joined the room
[23:08:41] *** Dave has left the room
[23:08:52] *** Dave shows as "online"
[23:09:32] *** dwd has joined the room
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[23:17:43] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[23:18:58] *** daniel has left the room
[23:19:15] *** dwd has left the room
[23:24:30] *** SamWhited has left the room
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[23:30:47] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[23:31:51] *** SamWhited has left the room
[23:32:48] *** peter shows as "online"
[23:35:46] *** SamWhited has joined the room
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[23:48:13] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[23:48:14] *** guus.der.kinderen shows as "online"
[23:53:30] *** dwd has left the room
[23:55:52] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[23:55:59] *** Tobias shows as "online"
[23:56:03] *** dwd has joined the room
[23:59:09] *** SamWhited has left the room
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