Wednesday, June 20, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[08:49:30] <Kev> Anything on the agenda for today?
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[13:02:13] <jonasw> tedd sterr secretly trying to take over council chair?
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[15:00:25] <Kev> I think it's fairly overt.
[15:00:27] <Kev> 'tis time.
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[15:00:38] <Kev> Who's here?
[15:00:40] <SamWhited> Oh hey, I appear to be here now and not silently dropped. *sigh* mcabber.
[15:01:20] <daniel> hi
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[15:01:44] <Kev> We seem to not have a chair. So
[15:01:46] <Kev> 1) Roll call
[15:02:00] <Kev> Me, Daniel and Sam, I think.
[15:02:11] <Kev> 2) Isn't it nice that Tedd Sterr does the agenda?
[15:02:22] <Kev> 3) Advance XEP-0363: HTTP File Upload
[15:02:34] <Kev> I'm afraid that without the agenda in advance, I failed to look at this again, so onlist for me.
[15:03:10] <SamWhited> I'm also on list; I'm still nervous about he http headers stuff being too restrictive.
[15:03:34] <daniel> +1
[15:03:46] <Kev> 4) Deprecate XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW (and XEP-0138: Stream Compression)
[15:03:56] <SamWhited> +0 for both.
[15:04:09] <Kev> I'm missing context for this being on the agenda - does anyone remember the background?
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[15:04:22] <daniel> didn’t we vote on that 6 month ago?
[15:04:32] <Kev> We have certainly had this come up before.
[15:04:38] <daniel> i think the background is 'insecurity'
[15:04:56] <Kev> Right, but I mean the background for why it appeared Right Now :)
[15:05:01] <daniel> not that i agree necessarily but that's probably why someone requested to deprecate
[15:05:47] <Kev> The last thing I can see was back in April when we decided not to advance it.
[15:06:48] <Kev> So I'm -0 on this right now.
[15:06:50] <Kev> daniel?
[15:06:56] <daniel> -0
[15:07:19] <Kev> 5) Any outstanding votes people want to make now?
[15:07:55] <daniel> in general i think that compression is nice to have. maybe with proper business rules (resetting the compression when ever the address changes or something) this can be made secure and useful
[15:08:11] <daniel> that way the 100+ stanzas a server sends you with the archive can be compressed
[15:08:32] <Kev> I think that's a "no" for this one.
[15:08:36] <Kev> 6) Date of next
[15:08:37] <Kev> SBTSBC?
[15:08:42] <daniel> wfm
[15:09:00] <Kev> Sam?
[15:09:21] <SamWhited> WFM
[15:09:29] <Kev> 7) AOB
[15:09:44] <SamWhited> I agree with daniel about compression FWIW. I'm not against getting rid of it, but it also helped us massively at HipChat.
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[15:10:36] <Kev> Clearly some sort of compression is desirable, as XMPP is used on poor links sometimes, and XML is heavily compressible.
[15:10:56] <daniel> Yes we should resurrect this soon ish
[15:11:08] <Kev> Whether that's these two XEPs, or EXI or whatever, I don't know, but I'm not sure deprecating at the moment is the Right Thing.
[15:11:18] <Kev> I think that's "No AOB" unless someone shouts imminently.
[15:11:20] <SamWhited> Yah, I agree.
[15:11:32] <daniel> Exi doesn't really seem in usable state
[15:11:36] <Kev> So, thanks all, we're done.
[15:11:39] <Kev> (Fini)
[15:11:45] <Kev> daniel: EXI itself, or the XEP?
[15:11:52] <SamWhited> Both
[15:11:52] <daniel> And compression with proper secure business rules is probably easier to do
[15:11:58] <daniel> Both
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[15:12:30] <daniel> i like the idea of exi
[15:12:44] <daniel> but it doesn't seem achievable any time soon
[15:13:14] <Kev> EXI is a bit like 138 with preshared dictionaries, in effect, which is something that's been pondered about before.
[15:13:29] <Kev> (I use "a bit like" somewhat loosely here)
[15:14:16] <SamWhited> Except it also is extremely specialized (to XML) and doesn't have implementations anywhere. Meanwhile every platform, language, and even a lot of hardware have LZ4 and gzip implementations.
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[15:14:52] <daniel> I mean the promise of exi is that you parse that directly instead of converting that to an XML stream first
[15:15:00] <daniel> Thus saving CPU time
[15:15:46] <SamWhited> At HipChat we actually saved CPU time from using zlib or whatever it was because encryption overhead is a lot higher and it reduced the number of packets that needed to be encrypted.
[15:16:16] <SamWhited> Since most people are using TLS these days (I hope), that seems like it would be pretty common.
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[15:16:31] <daniel> Right. Yeah no argument here that gzip is beneficial for multiple reasons compared to plain
[15:18:36] <daniel> So depreciating stream compression will send the wrong signal I'm afraid. But someone should rework the xep and bump the NS
[15:18:38] <Kev> daniel: Except you'll end up converting to XML anyway, because good luck with your server design that is carrying two stream formats through it without an abstraction that looks a lot like a DOM.
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[15:18:46] <daniel> To enforce the rules
[15:18:58] <Kev> That was 'except' in reply to "I mean the promise...".
[15:19:22] <daniel> Kev: yeah that's the problem I was talking about when I said it's not really usable right now
[15:19:32] <daniel> Both from the xep and the exi side
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[16:30:41] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[16:49:35] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:49:39] *** ralphm has left the room
[16:51:16] *** Dave has left the room
[16:51:17] *** Dave has joined the room
[17:07:42] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:08:29] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[17:11:07] *** labdsf has left the room
[17:14:19] *** Dave has left the room
[17:14:21] *** Dave has joined the room
[17:17:00] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:17:15] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[17:23:10] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[17:30:14] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[17:33:24] *** daniel has left the room
[17:33:29] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[17:39:07] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[17:40:33] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[17:40:55] *** ralphm has joined the room
[17:49:31] *** Dave has left the room
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[17:50:19] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:51:20] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[17:52:09] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[17:53:04] *** Dave has joined the room
[17:55:33] *** Dave shows as "online"
[17:55:55] *** Dave has left the room
[18:00:00] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[18:00:53] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:00:54] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:01:20] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[18:03:23] *** Kev shows as "away"
[18:15:03] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[18:24:10] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:25:01] *** Lance has left the room
[18:25:38] *** Tobias has left the room
[18:25:39] *** Tobias has joined the room
[18:35:50] *** Lance has joined the room
[18:35:51] *** Lance shows as "online"
[18:36:48] *** Tobias has left the room
[18:37:08] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[18:37:47] *** daniel has left the room
[18:37:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[18:38:33] *** Tobias has joined the room
[18:38:50] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:40:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:40:29] *** ralphm has left the room
[18:46:49] *** Dave has left the room
[18:46:55] *** Dave has joined the room
[18:47:54] *** Dave has left the room
[18:47:57] *** Dave has joined the room
[18:49:02] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:51:16] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[18:56:40] *** Lance has left the room
[18:59:11] *** daniel has left the room
[18:59:17] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:01:44] *** labdsf has left the room
[19:01:45] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[19:01:53] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[19:04:07] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[19:05:36] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[19:06:48] *** Kev shows as "away"
[19:07:02] *** guus.der.kinderen has joined the room
[19:10:58] *** jonasw shows as "away"
[19:12:05] *** labdsf has left the room
[19:12:07] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[19:23:10] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[19:30:17] *** Lance has joined the room
[19:30:18] *** Lance shows as "online"
[19:34:04] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[19:37:02] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[19:47:45] *** Lance has left the room
[19:51:26] *** daniel has left the room
[19:51:31] *** daniel shows as "online"
[19:53:11] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[20:00:34] *** daniel has left the room
[20:00:39] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:01:49] *** daniel has left the room
[20:01:53] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:03:08] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[20:03:31] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[20:04:25] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:04:29] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[20:04:35] *** SamWhited has left the room
[20:05:50] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:08:40] *** Dave has left the room
[20:08:51] *** Dave has joined the room
[20:20:23] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[20:25:08] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:30:17] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:30:18] *** Kev shows as "online"
[20:33:59] *** moparisthebest shows as "online"
[20:37:39] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[20:39:24] *** Kev has left the room
[20:43:05] *** Kev shows as "away"
[20:49:22] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[20:49:36] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[20:53:44] *** daniel has left the room
[20:53:47] *** daniel shows as "online"
[20:54:59] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[20:56:41] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[20:59:21] *** ralphm has joined the room
[21:00:09] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[21:00:10] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:03:35] *** labdsf shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:05:12] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:07:20] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[21:08:01] *** labdsf shows as "online"
[21:14:58] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[21:19:06] *** pep. has left the room
[21:19:10] *** pep. shows as "online"
[21:20:13] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:20:50] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:21:54] *** Kev shows as "online"
[21:32:14] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[21:44:17] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[21:45:54] *** daniel has left the room
[21:50:24] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[21:54:26] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:54:29] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:55:08] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:56:09] *** Kev has left the room
[21:56:55] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[21:58:12] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:58:13] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:59:18] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[22:02:26] *** daniel has left the room
[22:02:30] *** daniel has joined the room
[22:02:34] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[22:02:50] *** guus.der.kinderen has joined the room
[22:06:16] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[22:08:47] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:41:39] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[22:47:03] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:53:19] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:53:28] *** kasper.dement has left the room
[23:06:46] *** kasper.dement has joined the room
[23:27:33] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[23:27:58] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[23:31:36] *** Dave has left the room
[23:31:36] *** Dave has joined the room
[23:32:18] *** Dave has left the room
[23:32:22] *** Dave has joined the room
[23:42:44] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[23:43:41] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[23:57:46] *** jere has left the room