Wednesday, July 11, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:49:10] <Ge0rG> My calendar reminded me.
[14:49:23] <Kev> Well done Ge0rG's calendar.
[14:49:27] <SamWhited> I appear to actually be in the room this week
[14:49:35] <Dave> Even I'm here.
[14:49:41] <jonasw> I’m, too!
[14:49:41] <Ge0rG> !ping SamWhited
[14:50:14] <SamWhited> oh wow, I sent that and there was a *lot* of lag, briefly thought it wasn't working after all.
[14:50:31] <Ge0rG> I'll have to translocate starting in 20mins, but maybe my crappy mobile client app will suffice for after that.
[14:50:33] <jonasw> !summon Dave
[14:50:36] <jonasw> !summon daniel
[14:50:46] <daniel> Hi
[14:50:50] <Ge0rG> council@muc.xmpp.org/SamWhited responded to ping after 0.6988s
[14:50:53] <daniel> My lag is fine
[14:51:06] <jonasw> "I’m not 15 minutes late, my lag is just high"
[14:51:08] <SamWhited> Ge0rG: second message was fine, so no idea what that was about
[14:51:11] <SamWhited> and that one
[14:51:16] <jonasw> s2s establishment probably?
[14:51:35] <Ge0rG> Are we part of the establishment?
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[14:58:46] <jonasw> ... didn’t check the clock and was wondering why everyone is here but not talking
[14:58:56] <jonasw> and was about to check whether *my* link to this muc was broken
[14:59:10] <Ge0rG> Somebody should write a self-ping XEP.
[14:59:17] <Ge0rG> Oh, wait. That's on my TODO already.
[14:59:51] <Dave> 16:00, golly.
[15:00:01] <Ge0rG> Dave: you were 9 seconds too early.
[15:00:06] <Dave> Pfft.
[15:00:11] <Dave> 1) Role Call
[15:00:22] <Kev> Yma
[15:00:30] <Dave> Kev, Diolch.
[15:00:45] <SamWhited> Here
[15:00:47] *Ge0rG
[15:00:52] <daniel> Here
[15:00:56] <Dave> Cool.
[15:01:02] <Dave> 2) Agenda Fiddling
[15:01:40] <Ge0rG> Whoops, there is an agenda today. I totally missed that.
[15:01:58] <Dave> Any suggestions? Otherwise I'll go along with what Tedd Sterr has provided, since it seems OK.
[15:02:10] <Kev> No bashing here.
[15:02:12] <SamWhited> SGTM
[15:02:18] <Dave> 3) PR #664 - XEP-0045: Add implementation note about {jabber:x:conference}x payload - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664
[15:02:36] <Kev> Other than the typo, I don't think this is harmful (but do agree it should have gone to Council vote).
[15:02:43] <Kev> +1 sans typo
[15:02:44] <Ge0rG> There is a typo in that patch. "there still exist*s* server implementations"
[15:03:10] <Ge0rG> +1 sans typo from me as well
[15:03:12] <daniel> +1
[15:03:22] <SamWhited> +1
[15:03:25] <Dave> +1
[15:03:41] <Dave> 4) PR #672 - XEP-0059: Add 'exact(-index)' attribute to RSM's <count/> and <first/> - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/672
[15:04:00] <Kev> I've missed the context on this - anyone got the subject line from standards@ to look at?
[15:04:33] <Kev> I'm -1 regardless, but I'd like to see the discussion that prompted it.
[15:04:56] <jonasw> I think the discussion was in xsf@
[15:05:03] <Dave> I think I have to be on-list for this, I've not seen the discussion and it seems non-trivial.
[15:05:30] <Kev> I think the presence of an optional attribute that has no default in case it's missing is enough for me to -1 it in current form, regardless of intent.
[15:05:39] <Ge0rG> I think it's overdoing. Add complexity for a very specific corner-case. Not that I'm not guilty of that myself.
[15:05:43] <jonasw> Kev, huh, why?
[15:05:43] <SamWhited> I'm on list as well, but am leaning towards -1. I need to reread 0059 again first though.
[15:06:04] <Dave> Kev, Hmmm. Surely the absence means unspecified, as is the case now?
[15:06:13] <jonasw> absence signals "server doesn’t know, doesn’t want to, or does not support this"
[15:06:25] <jonasw> I don’t see anything wrong with that conceptually
[15:06:36] <Kev> It is currently not unspecified, it's currently specified that it may be inexact, and therefore anyone receiving it has to treat it as inexact.
[15:06:52] <Kev> i.e. the current is default exact=false.
[15:07:08] <Ge0rG> the current default is exact=maybe.
[15:07:12] <Dave> Kev, Ah... Interesting. I see your logic there.
[15:07:36] <Dave> daniel, Anything to say/vote before we move on?
[15:07:50] <Kev> Regardless, adding a SHOULD for new protocol to a Draft XEP seems like it needs to be done carefully.
[15:07:55] <daniel> I don't really have an opinion yet
[15:07:59] <daniel> On list
[15:08:06] <Ge0rG> on list from me as well
[15:08:28] <Dave> 5) Stagnant Votes
[15:08:31] <flow> I'd like to note that the commit message tries to provide a motivation
[15:08:36] <Kev> Am I the only one who thinks that thanking yourself in your own patch is terribly bad form too?
[15:08:59] <Ge0rG> flow: "may use an optimized algorithm" is a rather weak motivation.
[15:09:08] <Dave> I think at least a few of my votes have expired due to my absence, and I've no idea what else might be outstanding.
[15:09:29] <Kev> I still owe a vote on HTTP Upload, which may have expired, but I think there's unaddressed feedback on list that I'd like to see discussed before it advances.
[15:09:42] <Dave> I'll commit to updating the Spreadsheet Of Doom over the next couple of days.
[15:09:52] <Ge0rG> Kev: yes it is, but we don't have a better way to add contributors to an XEP, or do we?
[15:09:53] <Kev> I see comments from Goffi without a response, at least.
[15:10:10] <Kev> Ge0rG: I would expect the author or Editor to add a thanks in that case.
[15:10:25] <Dave> 6) AOB
[15:10:28] <Ge0rG> Kev: I haven't seen that happen in practice, yet.
[15:10:29] <daniel> > Am I the only one who thinks that thanking yourself in your own patch is terribly bad form too?
Yes. But I get where this is coming from and we don't have a good alternative for being listed as a conttubor
[15:10:46] <Kev> I have NAOB.
[15:11:06] <SamWhited> git blame will list you as a contributor if it's terribly important to you
[15:11:08] <Ge0rG> Maybe we need to add it to the XEP Editor README
[15:11:26] *Ge0rG begins translocation now.
[15:11:37] <Dave> So apologies for my extended absence - I've had a collision of things (including a new treasurer appeared and then vanishing on me across an accounts deadline for a charity I help with).
[15:12:08] <Kev> We coped, mostly.
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[15:12:29] <Dave> On the plus side, I taught myself double-entry ledger book-keeping, which is something.
[15:12:48] <Dave> But in any case, I'll commit to being more around as from now.
[15:13:18] <Ge0rG> That's a bold commitment
[15:13:29] <Dave> 7) Next Meeting
[15:13:36] <Dave> Normal time next week?
[15:13:40] <Kev> WFM
[15:13:41] <daniel> Wfm
[15:13:42] <SamWhited> WFM
[15:13:46] <Ge0rG> Should be fine
[15:14:12] <Dave> I'll actually be on a train, but it should be OK.
[15:14:43] <Dave> 8) Ite, Meeting Est.
[15:14:45] <Dave> Thank all.
[15:14:49] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:14:59] <Dave> Thanks all.
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[15:16:06] <flow> Ge0rG, would it help if I'd elaborate the algorithm for the exact=true case?
[15:16:48] <Ge0rG> flow: it sounds like you should do that, on standards@
[15:17:13] <flow> I dunno, appears the thing already got -1'ed
[15:17:19] <Dave> flow, It'd be more useful if there were some concrete cases where exactitude was essential.
[15:17:41] <jonasw> flow, modify the PR, re-submit to council, new vote
[15:17:42] <Dave> flow, Well. -1 means "do not advance", and not "never advance".
[15:19:25] <Ge0rG> flow: it seems nobody in the council quite grasped why the extension is needed.
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[15:23:59] <Ge0rG> So providing a deeper motivation on the list will probably increase your chances, or at least shift the feedback from "lack of understanding" to practical / formal issues
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[18:51:06] *** Lance shows as "online"
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[19:30:24] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[19:39:58] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[19:55:47] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[20:04:28] *** labdsf shows as "online"
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[20:33:22] *** Zash shows as "online"
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[20:56:58] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[22:45:02] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:45:32] *** daniel has joined the room
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[22:47:20] *** Dave shows as "online"
[22:51:34] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:54:35] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[23:13:36] *** Lance has joined the room
[23:13:36] *** Lance shows as "online"
[23:14:26] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
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[23:41:10] *** Lance has left the room
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[23:41:46] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
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