Wednesday, August 01, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[14:58:15] *Dave arranges the chairs
[14:58:28] *Kev sits at the back.
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[14:59:14] *jonasw arranges for buckets of water for everyone to dip their feet in
[14:59:22] <jonasw> cold water even
[14:59:59] <Dave> 1) Roll Call
[15:00:07] <SamWhited> here
[15:00:14] <Dave> Here, obviously.
[15:00:17] *Kev mutters from the back
[15:00:24] <SamWhited> (by phone, replies may be slow)
[15:00:28] *Ge0rG o/
[15:00:44] <Dave> No Daniel, but I'm assuming he's still on his travels?
[15:00:47] <Ge0rG> So Dave arranged the Chair.
[15:00:59] <Ge0rG> I think he promised to come back this week?
[15:01:21] <Dave> I wasn't sure. I know we were missing multiple last week hence the skip, but I thought Daniel was away longer.
[15:01:31] <Ge0rG> pinged daniel in private.
[15:01:34] <Dave> Anyway, four of us will do.
[15:01:50] <Dave> 2) Agenda Bashing
[15:01:57] <Dave> Any updates to the Agenda?
[15:02:12] <Ge0rG> I liked it, so I propose to change the subject of #2
[15:02:24] <Dave> (I'm hoping not, but in case I've missed something...)
[15:02:36] <Dave> 3) Items for voting:
[15:02:44] <Dave> 3a) XEP-0050: Remove the status attribute from the request #681

https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/681
[15:03:23] <Dave> This seems like a pretty straightforward case to me - optional inclusion of an attribute that the receiver is mandated to ignore. So I'm +1.
[15:03:27] <Kev> I think this is a typo actually.
[15:03:43] <SamWhited> +1, this seems very sensible.
[15:03:44] <Dave> What is? The statement being removed?
[15:03:45] <Kev> I think it's a typo of 'status' instead of 'action', and the better fix might be to fix the typo.
[15:03:59] <Kev> From my reading -50 earlier.
[15:04:20] <SamWhited> Why have an optional attribute at all? Feels rather pointless.
[15:04:39] <Dave> SamWhited, If it's restating a default, that makes more sense.
[15:04:41] <Ge0rG> +1
[15:04:47] <jonasw> Kev, that makes sense
[15:05:06] <SamWhited> then it should be required still so you can rely on it
[15:05:51] <SamWhited> having to check 'is it the default value or does it not exist' is just cumbersome for no reason in my mind
[15:06:07] <Kev> SamWhited: Possibly, but that's orthogonal to this patch, I think.
[15:06:12] <Dave> SamWhited, If it's not the default value it could be cancelling, though.
[15:06:39] <jonasw> I think Kev is right and it was meant to say "action"
[15:06:58] <Dave> But in any case, Kev, can you make a comment to that effect and I'll look at it in more detail - could be an example that clarifies too.
[15:07:08] <SamWhited> oh yah, I guess so
[15:07:10] <Dave> 3b) Proposed XMPP Extension: File Sharing Notifications

https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/fsn.html
[15:07:17] <Kev> A comment where? Not on the PR, presumably.
[15:07:34] <jonasw> (in reply to the minutes probably)
[15:07:35] <Ge0rG> I think Kev is right regarding the typo, but the typo is in the XEP and not in the PR, and the PR is self-consistent.
[15:07:40] <Ge0rG> Also the PR removes the typo.
[15:07:58] <Kev> I don't like several things about FSN, and think we could almost certainly do it a better way, but I don't see anything preventing Experimental, so +1.
[15:08:38] <Ge0rG> I don't like that there is no enumeration of all possible FSN states, and that there is no example of how to stop FSN. But I like the idea, so +1
[15:09:12] <Dave> I think a protocol in this space would be useful (even if this changes quite a bit on the way). +1.
[15:09:38] <Ge0rG> It might be good to put FSN as a payload into CSN, but I have no strong opinion on that.
[15:09:48] <SamWhited> what kev said, except that I'm not sure if I think it should go to experimental or not. on list though.
[15:09:54] <Dave> Ge0rG, There was some discussion around that, but I forget what.
[15:10:06] <Ge0rG> Dave: it was in the xsf@ MUC
[15:10:28] <jonasw> Ge0rG, reasons against doing that: (a) (weak) CSN is final, (b) FSN states should be orthogonal to CSN states (see the business rules)
[15:10:46] <Dave> 3c) XEP-0065, XEP-0363: Document exposing the service on the user’s domain #682

https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/682
[15:11:47] <Dave> FWIW, I understand why this is a single PR against multiple XEPs, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. XEP-0001 suggests these two changes should be voted upon distinctly by Council.
[15:11:52] <Kev> I think the intention here is right, but I'm afraid I think the way this is formulated is adding confusion rather than resolving it. I think you lead with "Here's how you see a domain has the feature" and then go with "And here's how you check the subdomains if it doesn't>
[15:12:05] <jonasw> Dave, council doesn’t need to vote on the second change, because '363 isn’t draft yet
[15:12:18] <jonasw> council only needs to vote on the change to '65, and if you reject that one, I guess Link Mauve will split
[15:12:27] <SamWhited> oh interesting, I mussed this one. on list, but looking forward to reading it.
[15:12:30] <Dave> jonasw, Yes, true, good point.
[15:12:34] <SamWhited> missed, even.
[15:12:46] <Dave> SamWhited, Mussed you have mist it?
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[15:13:04] <SamWhited> Ain't phones great?
[15:13:22] <Ge0rG> onlist.
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[15:13:41] <Dave> I think I'll vote on list with this one as well, mostly to take on board Kev's comment and see if I agree.
[15:13:59] <Dave> Kev, Is that a -1?
[15:14:15] <Ge0rG> I don't understand the PR against 65 as is, will have to research the context first.
[15:14:47] <Kev> I feel that -1 sends not quite the right message, because I agree with the change in principle, just not the execution, but yes. I'd at least like to be persuaded I'm wrong before it's merged.
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[15:15:28] <Dave> Kev, An easy-rectifiable -1, then.
[15:15:35] <Kev> Yes.
[15:15:51] <Dave> 3d) Proposed XMPP Extension: Schrödinger's Chat

https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
[15:15:58] <Ge0rG> +1 obviously. AMA
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[15:16:23] <Dave> I have comments on this, but nothing that'd prevent it going onto Experimental.
[15:16:42] <Ge0rG> This was discussed in October last year already on standards@
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[15:17:20] <jonasw> .oO(what if another MSN-client changes your nickname while your ping is in-flight and you get an item-not-found or whatever back because your ping target vanished…)
[15:17:50] <SamWhited> My only imediate concern is the title. Assuming it's changed to something more discoverable before going to experimental I'm +1
[15:17:55] <Ge0rG> jonasw: that's a very interesting one. Do you know of implementations that will change your nickname with MSN?
[15:18:06] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: is that a -1?
[15:18:19] <Kev> I think I might quibble about the 'sometimes, without warning, intercept, optionally', but otherwise it seems sane enough. +1
[15:18:26] <SamWhited> yes, I suppose it's a temporary -1
[15:18:43] <Kev> (Other than the name, but I'm not blocking on that even if it pushes the envelope of silliness too far for me)
[15:18:45] <Ge0rG> I liked the proposal by Zash, "Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)"
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[15:19:00] <jonasw> Ge0rG, same can happen if you’re changing your nickname yourself (although this can probably be solved by deferring the ping for some time after requesting a nick change)
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[15:19:24] <Dave> Kev, It's far, far too late for you to pretend to be the sensible one.
[15:19:25] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I'm sure you won't first change the nick and then send a ping to your old nick
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[15:19:38] <Kev> I wouldn't dare. I'm suggesting I'm not sensible, and this is too far even for me.
[15:19:43] <jonasw> Ge0rG, why not, I have to wait until I get the server ack for my nickchange before I update internal records…
[15:20:05] <jonasw> Ge0rG, so which name would you like to have?
[15:20:07] <Ge0rG> jonasw: want to document that in the Business Considerations?
[15:20:14] <jonasw> "MUC Self-Ping (Schrödinger’s Chat)"?
[15:20:21] <jonasw> ah, we have to wait for daniel anyways
[15:20:26] <Ge0rG> jonasw: I like the existing name and I'm sad that some Council members consider it silly.
[15:20:39] <Dave> 4) Outstanding Votes
[15:20:42] <jonasw> Ge0rG, for the record, I consider it silly (not in a bad way) and undiscoverable (bad) too
[15:21:21] <Dave> Ge0rG, I also consider the name silly. I'm just basically fine with that.
[15:21:34] <Kev> I would far prefer jonasw's suggestion.
[15:21:36] <jonasw> Dave, you have lost any ground to argue with "Bookmarks 2 (This time it’s serious)"
[15:21:36] <Ge0rG> I don't think having "Schrödinger's Chat" in parens will have the desired effect, so my only sane option is "MUC Self-Ping". But I demand a record of the rename in the changelog
[15:21:46] <Dave> So, outstanding - I think given the skip, everything has expired.
[15:21:49] <Kev> I don't mind silliness, but I think it's obsfucating here, and that's bad.
[15:21:58] <Dave> 5) Next Meeting
[15:22:09] <Dave> Next week, same time, same place?
[15:22:10] <jonasw> Dave, you have lost any right to argue since "Bookmarks 2 (This time it’s serious)"
[15:22:14] <SamWhited> wfm
[15:22:17] <Kev> *obfuscating
[15:22:19] <Ge0rG> Unless Sam and Kev would agree on "Schrödinger's Chat (MUC Self-Ping)", which would be my second best choice.
[15:22:20] <Dave> Kev, That's a fair point.
[15:22:21] <Kev> WFM
[15:22:23] <jonasw> Ge0rG, do it yourself then :)
[15:22:27] <SamWhited> bookmarks 2 still tells you what it does
[15:22:48] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: having numbers in titles is... not optimal.
[15:23:05] <SamWhited> please make 'MUC self ping' the first bit.
[15:23:08] *jonasw hides behind Entity Capabilities 2.0
[15:23:21] <Ge0rG> we already have numbered namespaces.
[15:23:30] *Dave coughs
[15:23:31] <jonasw> let’s not open this can of worms
[15:23:38] <Dave> Anyone any objections to next week?
[15:23:43] <jonasw> Ge0rG, you need to "wfm" next week
[15:23:46] <Ge0rG> +1W WFM
[15:23:58] <Dave> 6) AOB
[15:24:22] <Dave> ... Assuming none.
[15:24:28] <SamWhited> Nothing here.
[15:24:30] <Ge0rG> okay, so I'll go with "MUC Self-Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)" then.
[15:24:34] <Dave> 7) Ite, Meeting Est.
[15:24:41] <Dave> Thanks all.
[15:24:41] <Ge0rG> And use Bookmarks 2 as the precedent.
[15:24:51] <Kev> WFM
[15:24:53] <Kev> Thanks all.
[15:24:55] <Ge0rG> Thanks Dave. Thanks Tedd.
[15:24:57] <SamWhited> I can live with that.
[15:25:08] <SamWhited> thanks everyone
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