Wednesday, September 05, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[13:51:09] *** peter changed the title to "XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda"
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[14:46:27] <Dave> Afternoon. I'm less rubbish than last week (in as much as I'm here), but more rubbish than I should be because I havem't had a chance to do the agenda.
[14:48:33] <Dave> This is definitely on it though: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-avatars.html
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[14:56:53] <Dave> So this would be the agenda, if I read correctly: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit#gid=0&range=B93
[14:57:50] <Dave> No, some (many) of these have been voted on.
[14:59:04] <Dave> Right, corrected, though I'll fill the votes in later for the ones that have been done.
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[15:00:47] *SamWhited crams before the meeting
[15:01:39] <Dave> Righty, 'tis time.
[15:01:43] <Dave> 1) Roll Call
[15:01:47] <Dave> Who be here?
[15:01:52] <Kev> Here. Entirely unprepared, but here.
[15:02:08] <Dave> I'm pretty unprepared as well.
[15:02:10] <SamWhited> I am here, and have read at least one of the protoxeps
[15:02:17] <SamWhited> But also pretty unprepared
[15:02:25] <Dave> SamWhited, There's only one protoXEP, plus one PR.
[15:02:53] <SamWhited> Oh, I thought a second one came in. I have read the protoxep!
[15:03:20] <Dave> No Daniel or Georg?
[15:03:26] <Dave> 2) Voting On Stuff
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[15:03:42] <Dave> a) MUC Avatars https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-avatars.html
[15:04:00] <daniel> Here
[15:04:11] <daniel> +1
[15:04:18] <Kev> I'll try to get this one on-list, but realistically I'm flat out until holiday and it might expire.
[15:04:19] <Zash> I heard Georg is on vacation
[15:04:57] <Dave> I'm +1 on this, though i would like to understand how it differs from the de-facto that it suggests exists.
[15:05:28] <SamWhited> I'd be curious to hear what others (especially client authors) think about this one. I tend to think it's unnecessary, because you can just do it all already as far as I can see and having a second XEP that says more or less the same as vcard-temp feels awkward to me.
[15:05:39] <daniel> Minus presence plus in Disco info
[15:05:41] <Link Mauve> Dave, I tried to explain that in both the introduction and section 5.2.
[15:05:43] <Kev> I'm +1, have just scanned it.
[15:06:24] <daniel> But I'm not entirely sure about the motivation
[15:06:30] <Link Mauve> SamWhited, I hesitated about making it just informational, still not too sure.
[15:06:44] <Dave> Link Mauve, Ah, I thought that was just about presence.
[15:07:15] <Dave> SamWhited, It's mostly usage and semantics rather than protocol, but it seems useful to document.
[15:07:17] <SamWhited> That might make a bit more sense, having a standards track XEP that rehashes a historical one and adds discovery just feels odd
[15:07:20] <Link Mauve> Dave, presence vs. disco#info is the only part where my proposal differs from the status quo.
[15:07:27] <Dave> Link Mauve, Gotcha.
[15:07:27] <SamWhited> "That" == "Informational"
[15:07:39] <daniel> But since servers will do that anyway now I don't think that this xep will retroactively fix that
[15:07:52] <daniel> I mean sorry that clients broke and all
[15:08:02] <SamWhited> Documenting things sounds find, but it feels poor to have multiple XEPs in various states documenting the same thing. Couldn't we equally just add a note to vcard-temp saying "remember, MUCs are JIDs too"
[15:08:03] <Link Mauve> At least Prosody will probably skip on the presence way.
[15:08:04] <daniel> But the demage is done
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[15:08:38] <daniel> But we don't have to discuss this on council
[15:08:42] <SamWhited> Or a nod to vcard temp in 0045 even
[15:08:46] <Dave> SamWhited, Are you voting on this or thinking? (Georg is presumed to be on list anyway)
[15:08:53] <daniel> I'm +1 and then we can discuss on list once the xep is out
[15:09:13] <SamWhited> I'm thinking out loud, just curious to get others opinions. I guess I'm on list. I'm hesitant to publish this, but it seems fine protocol-wise.
[15:09:25] <Dave> Cool.
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[15:09:50] <Dave> b) XEP-0060: Add an example on returning fewer items than requested https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/695
[15:10:07] <daniel> Also really if your client breaks if you get a presence from a bare jid. Wtf. Just fix your client
[15:10:37] <daniel> The neat thing about doing the presence hash thing is that it worked instantly w/o any changes
[15:10:58] <Dave> daniel, Feel free to argue this position on list. :-)
[15:11:05] <Dave> Anyone any votes for this PR?
[15:11:19] <Dave> I personally think it's straightforward, so +1.
[15:11:35] <SamWhited> +1 on the PR, though I'll leave an editorial note for the author, but it won't change the substance of it
[15:12:11] <Kev> I'm not sure why this is a thing. What's the backstory here?
[15:12:23] <Dave> Link Mauve, ?
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[15:13:13] <Dave> Kev, FWIW, the XEP doesn't say what happens if a clientrequests N most recent when there are only M (M < N) items present. This is the obvious thing to do.
[15:13:36] <Kev> It being the obvious thing made me wonder why it needed to be a thing.
[15:13:37] <Link Mauve> Hmm, it was during the XMPP Sprint with MattJ, we IIRC encountered a case where Prosody was sending back an error instead of zero items.
[15:14:02] <Link Mauve> This makes sure servers behave correctly in this case.
[15:14:26] <Kev> Fair enough. No objections here.
[15:14:38] <Dave> Kev, Is that a 0 or a +1?
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[15:14:54] <daniel> +1
[15:14:57] <SamWhited> Added some minor nits on wording; only the first one really needs to be fixed. The other is just me being picky and I don't think it actually matters, feel free to disregard.
[15:15:17] <SamWhited> (I'm +1 either way with my council hat on, nits are with my editor hat on)
[15:15:24] <Kev> 0 because I don't have time to do the full review involved in +1ing it. The patch looks fine, but I don't think it's sufficiently diligent to approve just based on the diff - we know how that has worked in the past with complex XEPs like 50.
[15:15:38] <Dave> OK
[15:15:58] <Dave> 3) AOB
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[15:16:26] <Kev> Nowt.
[15:16:35] <Dave> 4) Next Meeting
[15:16:45] <Dave> I saw you were saying you'll be away for a bit, Kev?
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[15:16:56] <Kev> I'm out of action until October.
[15:17:17] <Dave> Anyone else going to be MIA?
[15:17:28] <Kev> (That'll be fully out of action, not on-list, unfortunately)
[15:18:26] <Dave> I have no idea how you'll survive.
[15:18:44] <Dave> I'll assume the rest of us will meet same time, same channel.
[15:18:57] <SamWhited> WFM
[15:19:06] <Dave> So absent anything else, thanks all, see you next week.
[15:19:14] <Dave> 5) Ite, Meeting Est.
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[15:26:16] <Link Mauve> Btw, there are still quite a few outstanding PRs at https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pulls which are tagged as Needs Council, could you add them all to next week’s agenda?
[15:27:59] <Dave> Link Mauve, I believe that those have had votes and expired. I'll see about tidying these up and ensuring they're documented etc.
[15:28:45] <Link Mauve> Ta.
[15:29:45] <guus.der.kinderen> Dave: #579 was voted on?
[15:30:07] <guus.der.kinderen> The h thingy on SM
[15:33:12] <guus.der.kinderen> It was in February, but was modified since.
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[18:18:15] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[18:25:34] *** Dave shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:25:36] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[18:44:51] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[18:46:57] *** Dave shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[18:47:00] *** Dave shows as "online"
[18:49:06] *** genofire shows as "online"
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[18:50:01] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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[18:59:43] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[19:10:55] *** Dave shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[19:13:13] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[19:13:26] <flow> guus.der.kinderen, #579 appears to be conflicting with master (at least gh tells me so)
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[19:15:37] <flow> guus.der.kinderen, I would suggest squashing into a single commit and rebaseing on the current master
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[20:00:10] *** peter shows as "online"
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[20:04:41] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[20:10:14] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:11:31] *** daniel shows as "online"
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[21:14:27] *** Dave shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[21:14:38] *** Dave shows as "online"
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[21:22:52] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:25:11] *** genofire shows as "online"
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[22:35:57] *** Dave shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 5 min)"
[22:45:55] *** Dave shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
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[22:57:37] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
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