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Ge0rG
It looks like we won't get a formal Council Agenda Mail today, so I'd like to put https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 for a semi-formal opinion poll for today.
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Ge0rG
It's almost That Time again.
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Ge0rG
Kev: do you happen to be sufficiently present to chair, in case Dave doesn't appear in time?
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Ge0rG
Hey dwd!
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Ge0rG
Kev, SamWhited, daniel: Meeting time?
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dwd
I'm reasonably convinced I'll have to vanish.
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daniel
i’m here
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dwd
But I'm here for now - really shouldn't chair though in case I'm called away. Ge0rG, want to do the honours?
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Ge0rG
dwd: at your service.
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Ge0rG
1) Roll Call
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Ge0rG
looks like we have Daniel, Dave and me, so it might be a quorum until Dave vanishes.
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dwd
Here. Actually meeting cancelled.
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dwd
(I think).
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Ge0rG
2) Lack of Agenda Bashing
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SamWhited
oops, sorry, I"m here
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Ge0rG
We don't have an Agenda, into which I tried to sneak https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 which failed horribly.
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Ge0rG
We also don't have on our Agenda a list of expired Council votes that we should recast.
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Ge0rG
Any other additions?
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daniel
wait did you create an issue on github instead of just writing to the mailinglist?
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daniel
i’m confused
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Ge0rG
daniel: I fead I did, yes. But to my defense, I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question.
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dwd
I think Ge0rG was hoping he could create an issue to create an agendum.
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daniel
> I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question. but that’s the norm for like 50% of the posts there :-)
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Ge0rG
My train of thought was: create issue, obtain "needs council" tag, make Dave add it to the agenda, discuss today.
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SamWhited
oh yah, if it only needs council then that was probably fine, I might have misunderstood
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SamWhited
Then it really is just an issue for the editors (after seeking advise from us)
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Ge0rG
SamWhited: no, you were right. I violently ignored due process.
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daniel
ok but lets ignore how it got on the agenda and just pretend it did
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Ge0rG
I'm not even sure I really want a formal vote on that or just feedback from you folks regarding the change I have in mind.
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dwd
I can't find XEP-0283, it seems to have been moved.
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Ge0rG
dwd: unfortunately the new address was lost when it was automatically removed from the roster.
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daniel
i think a similiar question arised from the muc destroyed thing that has a new jid
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Ge0rG
So it looks like we have no further items to add to the Agenda and implicitly moved to: 3) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717
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daniel
that's in a way the same security question
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Ge0rG
daniel: the answer there was "tombstones"
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dwd
But jokes aside, I'd like to see a PR. My gut feeling is that it ought to be possible to satisfy the rationale in §4, while also satisfying automated [re]subscribing.
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daniel
do i leave the old jid and join the new one
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daniel
Ge0rG, right yeah. but the question is do i automatically join the new one
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daniel
which i guess is kinda similiar to do i automatically switch over to the new jid
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Ge0rG
dwd: to be honest, I don't quite understand the rationale in §4. It looks like a managed environment with auto-approval based on domains? Or is it actually the problem that the receiving client just blindly accepts whatever <moved/> is shoved up to them without checking with the new account?
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Ge0rG
daniel: right.
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dwd
Ge0rG, I think basically you're right. A poor implementation which is *too* trusting could certainly be abused. But it feels like limiting trust should give us a reasonable outcome.
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Ge0rG
IMO, if you prove ownership of old-account and new-account by publishing cross-references on both, it should be enough proof for remote entities to automatically replace your JID
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dwd
But... I'd like to see a PR. My gut feelings do not constitute advance acceptance. :-)
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Ge0rG
the only attack vector left is _temporary_ control over an account. But I'd argue that if you take control over my account for a minute, it's compromised anyway
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Ge0rG
What's the process? The XEP author submitted it in 2010 and I have no idea why it's even in Experimental still.
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Ge0rG
Do we need to dig up Tory Patnoe?
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dwd
There are use cases where the new account holder no longer has access to the old account, mind. But those ened to be manual.
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jonas’
Ge0rG, make a PR
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Ge0rG
dwd: yes, I'm not speaking of those.
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dwd
Ah, no. Council can accept you as a new author. Would you like us to?
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jonas’
the author will be pinged via mail and xmpp
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jonas’
or council simply overrides it :)
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Ge0rG
dwd: only after removing all the pseudo-security-issues cruft from it that I don't understand anyway.
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Ge0rG
So I'll start with a PR and then we can speak about authorship
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jonas’
Ge0rG, make a PR which does that and also puts you as author, then.
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Ge0rG
jonas’: thanks
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daniel
is this the right time to mention that i don’t like the mutual subscription thing xmpp has going on?
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Ge0rG
daniel: yes.
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SamWhited
Agreed.
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jonas’
daniel, why, and what would you like to see insetad?✎ -
dwd
daniel, No. I'd like to hear about it, but not right now.
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jonas’
daniel, why, and what would you like to see instead? ✏
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Ge0rG
SamWhited: with what exactly do you agree?
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Ge0rG
But I suppose dwd is right, we should move on with our (lack of) Agenda.
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SamWhited
"i don’t like the mutual subcription thing xmpp has going on"
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daniel
anyway lets move on
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SamWhited
(I promise I was paying attention to the discussion before that, I just don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on moved)
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daniel
should we give Ge0rG ownership of that xep
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Ge0rG
Unless I hear objections from Sam or Daniel now on allowing automatic JID replacement in 0283, I'll put a PR on my todo
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SamWhited
I'd like to see a PR. I do have a feeling that changing it so that some other server can force your server to make new S2S connections might be bad somehow.
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SamWhited
But I can't actually think of any problem, it just feels odd for me to be able to tell something to connect to something else.
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Ge0rG
SamWhited: that's interesting, I'll consider that
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Ge0rG
SamWhited: I suppose you shouldn't simply connect on a <moved new/> but wait for a ping from the new account
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Ge0rG
But as multiple servers are involved, this is prone to race conditions, so the protocol must be bullet-proof in that
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daniel
yeah i have too much of a headache right now to actually think through the consequences but I'm ok with allowing Ge0rG to make a PR and/or take ownership of a 8 year old xep
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Ge0rG
Yay!
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Ge0rG
4) AOB
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SamWhited
Me too; it was election night here last night so I was up until 0200 refreshing various news sources compulsively…
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SamWhited
So I may be a bit foggy today :)
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Ge0rG
We have another election night on 2018-11-22, and I'd *love* to get rid of the many "EXPIRED"s in the SoD.
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jonas’
many of the EXPIREDs are not up for revoting though
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jonas’
some of them are VETOED
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Ge0rG
somebody with a bit of a time budget and RW permissions needs to review the votes.
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jonas’
*sigh*
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Ge0rG
And it looks like everybody here lacks both.
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jonas’
dwd, I’ll request +w on the SoD now
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dwd
At the moment, though I might do before the next meeting.
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jonas’
sYdCst5Woy
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dwd
Gosh, that was incomprehensible, sorry.
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dwd
jonas’, Best change that password.
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SamWhited
I'm trying to find mine now; I could have sworn I voted on some of these.
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jonas’
dwd, it’s a token I put in my request to get +w
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Ge0rG
Mind that recasting the votes will give everybody +2W of on-list time, so we will be into the next Council if we don't get our votes together on 21st
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dwd
I meant to say: I don't have the time right now, but I might get the time together before the next meeting.
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dwd
Tedd Sterr did actually collate all the votes for me to put in there.
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jonas’
dwd, hand me +w, I might have a slot tomorrow night where I can review at least some of them
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Ge0rG
dwd: maybe you could give Tedd +w then?
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Ge0rG
dwd: I don't want to push you into committing to anything, but it would be really great to have that list cleaned up in time for our next Agenda.
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SamWhited
I was -1 on file sharing notifications at least, so far those are the only minutes I can find (XMPP Council Minutes 2018-08-01).
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SamWhited
I'll wait if there are others to be added though in case some of the ones I'm looking for are already in Ted's list.
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Ge0rG
Maybe everyone from Council can try to aggregate their missing votes until end of this week, then?
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Ge0rG
We've got only 1.5min left, and I still have two Agenda items open.
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Ge0rG
So I'm moving on for now.
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Ge0rG
5) AOAOB
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Ge0rG
6) Next Meeting does +1W work for you?
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daniel
can someone give me a link to that spreadsheet so i know what to vote on
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SamWhited
WFM
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Ge0rG
daniel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit#gid=0
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daniel
i probably can’t do next week
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daniel
thanks
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Ge0rG
Looks like we lost Dave.
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Ge0rG
7) Close
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Ge0rG
Thanks everyone! Let's hope +1W works out :)
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jonas’
dwd, thanks, that worked