Wednesday, November 07, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
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XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

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[10:32:43] <Ge0rG> It looks like we won't get a formal Council Agenda Mail today, so I'd like to put https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 for a semi-formal opinion poll for today.
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[15:54:28] <Ge0rG> It's almost That Time again.
[15:55:01] <Ge0rG> Kev: do you happen to be sufficiently present to chair, in case Dave doesn't appear in time?
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[16:01:51] <Ge0rG> Hey dwd!
[16:02:02] <Ge0rG> Kev, SamWhited, daniel: Meeting time?
[16:02:08] <dwd> I'm reasonably convinced I'll have to vanish.
[16:02:09] <daniel> i’m here
[16:02:32] <dwd> But I'm here for now - really shouldn't chair though in case I'm called away. Ge0rG, want to do the honours?
[16:02:55] <Ge0rG> dwd: at your service.
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[16:03:11] <Ge0rG> 1) Roll Call
[16:03:34] <Ge0rG> looks like we have Daniel, Dave and me, so it might be a quorum until Dave vanishes.
[16:03:43] <dwd> Here. Actually meeting cancelled.
[16:03:47] <dwd> (I think).
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[16:04:11] <Ge0rG> 2) Lack of Agenda Bashing
[16:04:22] <SamWhited> oops, sorry, I"m here
[16:04:34] <Ge0rG> We don't have an Agenda, into which I tried to sneak https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 which failed horribly.
[16:05:17] <Ge0rG> We also don't have on our Agenda a list of expired Council votes that we should recast.
[16:05:34] <Ge0rG> Any other additions?
[16:06:00] <daniel> wait did you create an issue on github instead of just writing to the mailinglist?
[16:06:03] <daniel> i’m confused
[16:06:43] <Ge0rG> daniel: I fead I did, yes. But to my defense, I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question.
[16:06:43] <dwd> I think Ge0rG was hoping he could create an issue to create an agendum.
[16:07:24] <daniel> > I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question.
but that’s the norm for like 50% of the posts there :-)
[16:07:40] <Ge0rG> My train of thought was: create issue, obtain "needs council" tag, make Dave add it to the agenda, discuss today.
[16:07:59] <SamWhited> oh yah, if it only needs council then that was probably fine, I might have misunderstood
[16:08:11] <SamWhited> Then it really is just an issue for the editors (after seeking advise from us)
[16:08:28] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: no, you were right. I violently ignored due process.
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[16:08:57] <daniel> ok but lets ignore how it got on the agenda and just pretend it did
[16:09:08] <Ge0rG> I'm not even sure I really want a formal vote on that or just feedback from you folks regarding the change I have in mind.
[16:09:08] <dwd> I can't find XEP-0283, it seems to have been moved.
[16:09:41] <Ge0rG> dwd: unfortunately the new address was lost when it was automatically removed from the roster.
[16:10:23] <daniel> i think a similiar question arised from the muc destroyed thing that has a new jid
[16:10:29] <Ge0rG> So it looks like we have no further items to add to the Agenda and implicitly moved to:
3) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717
[16:10:38] <daniel> that's in a way the same security question
[16:10:42] <Ge0rG> daniel: the answer there was "tombstones"
[16:10:49] <dwd> But jokes aside, I'd like to see a PR. My gut feeling is that it ought to be possible to satisfy the rationale in §4, while also satisfying automated [re]subscribing.
[16:10:49] <daniel> do i leave the old jid and join the new one
[16:11:04] <daniel> Ge0rG, right yeah. but the question is do i automatically join the new one
[16:11:29] <daniel> which i guess is kinda similiar to do i automatically switch over to the new jid
[16:12:15] <Ge0rG> dwd: to be honest, I don't quite understand the rationale in §4. It looks like a managed environment with auto-approval based on domains? Or is it actually the problem that the receiving client just blindly accepts whatever <moved/> is shoved up to them without checking with the new account?
[16:12:25] <Ge0rG> daniel: right.
[16:13:01] <dwd> Ge0rG, I think basically you're right. A poor implementation which is *too* trusting could certainly be abused. But it feels like limiting trust should give us a reasonable outcome.
[16:13:14] <Ge0rG> IMO, if you prove ownership of old-account and new-account by publishing cross-references on both, it should be enough proof for remote entities to automatically replace your JID
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[16:13:45] <dwd> But... I'd like to see a PR. My gut feelings do not constitute advance acceptance. :-)
[16:13:46] <Ge0rG> the only attack vector left is _temporary_ control over an account. But I'd argue that if you take control over my account for a minute, it's compromised anyway
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[16:14:17] <Ge0rG> What's the process? The XEP author submitted it in 2010 and I have no idea why it's even in Experimental still.
[16:14:32] <Ge0rG> Do we need to dig up Tory Patnoe?
[16:14:44] <dwd> There are use cases where the new account holder no longer has access to the old account, mind. But those ened to be manual.
[16:14:57] <jonas’> Ge0rG, make a PR
[16:14:57] <Ge0rG> dwd: yes, I'm not speaking of those.
[16:15:11] <dwd> Ah, no. Council can accept you as a new author. Would you like us to?
[16:15:11] <jonas’> the author will be pinged via mail and xmpp
[16:15:18] <jonas’> or council simply overrides it :)
[16:15:44] <Ge0rG> dwd: only after removing all the pseudo-security-issues cruft from it that I don't understand anyway.
[16:16:04] <Ge0rG> So I'll start with a PR and then we can speak about authorship
[16:16:04] <jonas’> Ge0rG, make a PR which does that and also puts you as author, then.
[16:16:06] <Ge0rG> jonas’: thanks
[16:16:12] <daniel> is this the right time to mention that i don’t like the mutual subscription thing xmpp has going on?
[16:16:25] <Ge0rG> daniel: yes.
[16:16:32] <SamWhited> Agreed.
[16:16:36] <jonas’> daniel, why, and what would you like to see insetad?
[16:16:38] <dwd> daniel, No. I'd like to hear about it, but not right now.
[16:16:38] <jonas’> daniel, why, and what would you like to see instead?
[16:16:40] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: with what exactly do you agree?
[16:17:03] <Ge0rG> But I suppose dwd is right, we should move on with our (lack of) Agenda.
[16:17:16] <SamWhited> "i don’t like the mutual subcription thing xmpp has going on"
[16:17:41] <daniel> anyway lets move on
[16:17:45] <SamWhited> (I promise I was paying attention to the discussion before that, I just don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on moved)
[16:17:51] <daniel> should we give Ge0rG ownership of that xep
[16:17:51] <Ge0rG> Unless I hear objections from Sam or Daniel now on allowing automatic JID replacement in 0283, I'll put a PR on my todo
[16:18:23] <SamWhited> I'd like to see a PR. I do have a feeling that changing it so that some other server can force your server to make new S2S connections might be bad somehow.
[16:18:45] <SamWhited> But I can't actually think of any problem, it just feels odd for me to be able to tell something to connect to something else.
[16:18:49] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: that's interesting, I'll consider that
[16:19:20] <Ge0rG> SamWhited: I suppose you shouldn't simply connect on a <moved new/> but wait for a ping from the new account
[16:19:38] <Ge0rG> But as multiple servers are involved, this is prone to race conditions, so the protocol must be bullet-proof in that
[16:19:47] <daniel> yeah i have too much of a headache right now to actually think through the consequences but I'm ok with allowing Ge0rG to make a PR and/or take ownership of a 8 year old xep
[16:20:02] <Ge0rG> Yay!
[16:20:19] <Ge0rG> 4) AOB
[16:20:32] <SamWhited> Me too; it was election night here last night so I was up until 0200 refreshing various news sources compulsively…
[16:20:58] <SamWhited> So I may be a bit foggy today :)
[16:21:34] <Ge0rG> We have another election night on 2018-11-22, and I'd *love* to get rid of the many "EXPIRED"s in the SoD.
[16:22:13] <jonas’> many of the EXPIREDs are not up for revoting though
[16:22:17] <jonas’> some of them are VETOED
[16:22:35] <Ge0rG> somebody with a bit of a time budget and RW permissions needs to review the votes.
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[16:22:57] <jonas’> *sigh*
[16:22:59] <Ge0rG> And it looks like everybody here lacks both.
[16:23:10] <jonas’> dwd, I’ll request +w on the SoD now
[16:23:13] <dwd> At the moment, though I might do before the next meeting.
[16:23:27] <jonas’> sYdCst5Woy
[16:23:33] <dwd> Gosh, that was incomprehensible, sorry.
[16:23:42] <dwd> jonas’, Best change that password.
[16:23:56] <SamWhited> I'm trying to find mine now; I could have sworn I voted on some of these.
[16:23:58] <jonas’> dwd, it’s a token I put in my request to get +w
[16:24:12] <Ge0rG> Mind that recasting the votes will give everybody +2W of on-list time, so we will be into the next Council if we don't get our votes together on 21st
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[16:24:35] <dwd> I meant to say: I don't have the time right now, but I might get the time together before the next meeting.
[16:24:49] <dwd> Tedd Sterr did actually collate all the votes for me to put in there.
[16:24:52] <jonas’> dwd, hand me +w, I might have a slot tomorrow night where I can review at least some of them
[16:25:08] <Ge0rG> dwd: maybe you could give Tedd +w then?
[16:27:03] <Ge0rG> dwd: I don't want to push you into committing to anything, but it would be really great to have that list cleaned up in time for our next Agenda.
[16:27:41] <SamWhited> I was -1 on file sharing notifications at least, so far those are the only minutes I can find (XMPP Council Minutes 2018-08-01).
[16:28:02] <SamWhited> I'll wait if there are others to be added though in case some of the ones I'm looking for are already in Ted's list.
[16:28:24] <Ge0rG> Maybe everyone from Council can try to aggregate their missing votes until end of this week, then?
[16:28:56] <Ge0rG> We've got only 1.5min left, and I still have two Agenda items open.
[16:29:03] <Ge0rG> So I'm moving on for now.
[16:29:10] <Ge0rG> 5) AOAOB
[16:29:51] <Ge0rG> 6) Next Meeting
does +1W work for you?
[16:29:55] <daniel> can someone give me a link to that spreadsheet so i know what to vote on
[16:29:59] <SamWhited> WFM
[16:30:09] <Ge0rG> daniel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit#gid=0
[16:30:13] <daniel> i probably can’t do next week
[16:30:15] <daniel> thanks
[16:30:35] <Ge0rG> Looks like we lost Dave.
[16:31:18] <Ge0rG> 7) Close
[16:31:30] <Ge0rG> Thanks everyone! Let's hope +1W works out :)
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[16:57:20] <jonas’> dwd, thanks, that worked
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[19:23:28] *** Kev has left the room
[19:24:27] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:28:33] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[19:31:26] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[19:33:27] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:36:31] *** lnj has left the room
[19:36:40] *** peter shows as "online"
[19:46:25] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:48:40] *** Lance shows as "away"
[19:48:43] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[19:48:45] *** guus.der.kinderen has joined the room
[19:58:58] *** Lance shows as "online"
[20:00:03] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[20:00:48] *** Zash shows as "online"
[20:01:54] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:14:03] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:21:58] *** peter shows as "xa" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[20:25:44] *** lnj has left the room
[20:27:57] *** daniel has left the room
[20:35:39] *** labdsf has left the room
[20:37:16] *** labdsf has joined the room
[20:42:48] *** guus.der.kinderen has joined the room
[20:44:44] *** peter shows as "online"
[20:53:38] *** SamWhited has left the room
[21:02:21] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:17:59] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:21:42] *** Tobias has left the room
[21:21:43] *** Tobias has joined the room
[21:27:03] *** guus.der.kinderen has left the room
[21:27:14] *** guus.der.kinderen has joined the room
[21:27:32] *** Lance has left the room
[21:41:04] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[21:45:12] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:47:52] *** SamWhited shows as "online"
[21:48:54] *** peter shows as "online"
[21:53:36] *** Lance has joined the room
[21:53:36] *** Lance shows as "online"
[21:59:07] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:05:50] *** peter shows as "online"
[22:07:51] *** Zash has left the room
[22:12:00] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:14:15] *** Holger has left the room
[22:14:18] *** Holger shows as "online"
[22:15:35] *** Kev shows as "online"
[22:15:36] *** Kev shows as "online"
[22:15:55] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:16:54] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:17:02] *** Zash has left the room
[22:18:34] *** peter shows as "online"
[22:20:26] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:23:22] *** Zash has left the room
[22:29:07] *** Zash has left the room
[22:32:07] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[22:34:17] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[22:34:20] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[22:36:41] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:36:42] *** Lance has left the room
[22:42:15] *** Zash has left the room
[22:43:13] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:43:16] *** Zash shows as "online"
[22:47:38] *** SamWhited has left the room
[22:48:45] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[22:53:49] *** peter shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto Status (idle)"
[22:57:47] *** Kev shows as "away"
[23:10:28] *** peter shows as "online"
[23:10:55] *** peter has left the room
[23:12:38] *** Zash shows as "online"
[23:51:28] *** dwd has joined the room
[23:51:28] *** dwd shows as "online"
[23:57:41] *** dwd has left the room