XMPP Council - 2018-12-05


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  53. jonas’ gentle reminder of our meeting today
  54. Kev Yeah, I'll be in the middle of another meeting at the time, so will have to take my laptop in with me and stealth-Council.
  55. jonas’ do that, we need a chair
  56. Kev If for some reason I'm not here, and the only person standing is Dave, +1 to Dave. If for some reason people want me to stand, +1 to me (but I don't see why).
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  75. Ge0rG So it looks like we have two half-candidates.
  76. Kev I'd prefer Dave.
  77. Ge0rG So it looks like we have 0.75 candidates.
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  82. jonas’ summons dwd and Link Mauve
  83. dwd Yeah.
  84. dwd 1) Roll Call
  85. dwd Who do we have?
  86. jonas’ is here
  87. Kev Here
  88. dwd Is that a whole Kev?
  89. Ge0rG is here
  90. Kev I'm running a retro, but I'm here.
  91. dwd jonas’ and Link Mauve?
  92. jonas’ here
  93. dwd Link Mauve?
  94. jonas’ unfortunately, we also don’t have an opinion from Link Mauve on the chair issue from last week...
  95. dwd Sigh.
  96. jonas’ maybe we can use the waiting time to discuss an Any-Other-Business point from me?
  97. jonas’ I don’t think we need a formal decision
  98. dwd Sure, let's do that first while we wait for Link Mauve.
  99. jonas’ about the Compliance Suites
  100. jonas’ I agreed to do the next iteration
  101. jonas’ I wonder, do we really want a XEP per year, or do we want to switch to a model where we have a single XEP which is versioned e.g. 2019.1.0
  102. jonas’ I’d prefer the latter, because there is a canonical point where the most recent suites can be found
  103. Kev Versioned, from me.
  104. jonas’ and one can still link to a specific version via the attic
  105. Ge0rG I think we had that discussion 1+epsilon years ago, and decided to go with new XEPs
  106. dwd Given the cost of a XEP, I think we should have a XEP a year. But we could ask iTeam to generate a stable URI or something.
  107. Kev Ah, I understood the question wrongly.
  108. Kev I'd do new XEPs, but versioned rather than yeared.
  109. Ge0rG XEP-2019
  110. dwd OIC.
  111. jonas’ versioned rather than yeared, interesting
  112. jonas’ but that’s weird to me
  113. Ge0rG Kev: what do you mean?
  114. dwd So we don't commit to having a new compliance suite per year?
  115. Kev Right.
  116. dwd But we still do them as a new XEP each time.
  117. jonas’ I think that is very non-obvious
  118. jonas’ to somebody who wants to look at the XEPs I mean
  119. jonas’ with suite 2018, I know I’ll find at most 2019
  120. Ge0rG if there is no update to the list of XEPs, why not keep the number and change the year, or introduce a year-range?
  121. jonas’ but if there’s a suite 23.1, how do I know whteher I need to look for 39.2 to find the newest? :/
  122. Kev People don't understand versioning of XEPs, but understand XEP numbers.
  123. dwd Ge0rGOh, +1.
  124. jonas’ stable URI is an interesting idea, but, uh.
  125. Zash (floor) I'd think it be cool if council could draft something like a vision statement (what we want xmpp to be like in the near future), as complement to the compliance suite (what it should be like right now).
  126. dwd Yeah, I like the idea that we bounce up the year if we don't get a new suite out.
  127. jonas’ Zash, +1
  128. dwd Zash, Also +1.
  129. Ge0rG XEP-0387: XMPP Compliance Suites 2017-2019
  130. jonas’ hmm
  131. jonas’ would be fine with me
  132. jonas’ although I think this year brought some changes w.r.t. PEP which we should probably pick up, but I haven’t looked at '387 recently, so my memory might be fuzzy on what needs to be changed.
  133. Ge0rG jonas’: not with me. It's missing 0184
  134. jonas’ Ge0rG, conceptually, not this specific instance.
  135. jonas’ (and see above)
  136. Ge0rG Zash: with the usual position of council, it would be great if somebody from the floor submitted a proto-XEP of that vision statement
  137. Ge0rG though maybe XEP is not the right tool for the job.
  138. jonas’ ah, that was also discussed in the suites discussion last year
  139. jonas’ but I don’t think we have a better tool at the moment, do we?
  140. Ge0rG A header in the official XEP list? It should also have a prominent link to the current Compliance Suite
  141. jonas’ the wiki may be... for the vision statement
  142. jonas’ I don’t think the header above the list is a good one
  143. Kev So, what was the argument for using a year?
  144. jonas’ for using a year in which context?
  145. Ge0rG Kev: so readers can estimate freshness
  146. dwd wonders if Link Mauveis coming.
  147. Kev We were talking about bumping years if we didn't publish new things.
  148. Kev But I was wondering why we wanted a year at all.
  149. dwd Kev, SO we can show we're exciting and Now.
  150. jonas’ yeah
  151. jonas’ I think that’s really a bit important
  152. jonas’ having something to point at where a recent year is prominently shown is surely important to folks
  153. dwd Yes, as do I.
  154. Ge0rG Also to have disambiguation from "Compliance Suite 2012" etc.
  155. Kev The publishing year is still ther.
  156. Kev +e
  157. jonas’ Kev, it’s not prominently in the title though
  158. dwd Kev, True, but without the same impact.
  159. jonas’ if it’s not shown in the Facebook preview snippet when you post a link, it’s not there ;-)
  160. dwd Kev, The Compliance suites were always mostly about a markteting device.
  161. Ge0rG The XSF is bad at marketing.
  162. dwd Ge0rG, This is also true.
  163. dwd Anyway, if someone could write up these thoughts for the list (assuming we don't capture them as minutes), I think it'd be interesting to hear from the community on this one.
  164. dwd Meanwhile:
  165. dwd 2) Election of a Chair.
  166. Kev Dave
  167. jonas’ (considering the timing, I’d make a call and go with "make a new XEP for 2019")
  168. jonas’ Dave
  169. dwd I suggest we open the vote, and let Link Mauvevote on list at this point. Usual rules apply - two week expiry etc. Though hopefully we don't need that...
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  171. jonas’ I agree.
  172. dwd Ge0rG, You voting now or on the list?
  173. Ge0rG Dave
  174. Ge0rG or is it "+Dave"?
  175. dwd I suppose I'd better stand now.
  176. dwd OK, four votes for me. Feel free to change your minds as usual until Link Mauve makes a final vote.
  177. dwd jonas’, Who do we have as Editors currently?
  178. jonas’ doing actual git work? 99% me
  179. jonas’ jcbrand does some good triaging on the repository
  180. dwd OK, so should we ask Board to find some more?
  181. jonas’ doesn’t hurt
  182. jonas’ bus factor and so on
  183. Ge0rG Are Guus and Sam still in the Editors team?
  184. jonas’ Guus never was, I think?
  185. jonas’ Sam is
  186. jonas’ (and a bunch of other folks)
  187. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html
  188. jonas’ I’ll make a PR against the data to update that page with new council
  189. dwd Sam nominally is, but I think he was caught up with Council last year. Ash, M&M, and co have all drifted off.
  190. Ge0rG Oh, sorry
  191. dwd jonas’, Any chance you could have a look through to see if anything's pending? Last Calls completed etc?
  192. jonas’ dwd, will do
  193. dwd Thanks.
  194. jonas’ there is a ProtoXEP in the queue, I hope to process the queue tomorrow
  195. dwd Any other any other business?
  196. Ge0rG I've had a deep look into Moved.
  197. Ge0rG If people are interested.
  198. jonas’ (FYI: <https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/487>)
  199. jonas’ Ge0rG, I am
  200. Ge0rG okay. Moved is a mess. It relies on presence subscribe / unsubscribe stanzas, which are ephemeral. To make it work reliably, you'd need to have something like a tombstone hosted on the old account,e.g. in PEP
  201. Ge0rG and then you could send <moved> payloads in messages to inform clients of the change.
  202. jonas’ maybe we should stop trying to make this work without server support.
  203. dwd Well, that.
  204. jonas’ at least on the moved-from server.
  205. Ge0rG there are multiple sub-tasks to accomplish: 1. let other people who want to add your old JID know that you moved 2. change all your friends' rosters to your new JID 3. inform all your friends' clients of the binding between old and new jid, so they can manipulate the chat history.
  206. Ge0rG manipulate = merge / show cross-links
  207. dwd Ge0rG, I am actually interested in this, but I'm also a bit busy - any chance we can continue afterward and/or on list?
  208. Ge0rG ideally, I wanted a way to make a partial move possible (i.e. only move a certain roster group to a new account), but that'll break with PEP tombstones
  209. Ge0rG dwd: yes
  210. dwd OK, thanks. QUickly then:
  211. dwd N) Next Meeting
  212. jonas’ Ge0rG, interesting point
  213. jonas’ but on list seems fine by me
  214. dwd I'll assume this time next week works for everyone?
  215. Ge0rG I've arrived at a point where fixing Moved wll be a full rewrite anyway. All that remains is the wire format.
  216. jonas’ dwd, wfm
  217. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  218. jonas’ Ge0rG, wfm; it’s experimental & deferred. go ahead.
  219. jonas’ I prefer that over yet-another-duplicated-xep
  220. jonas’ ok, it’s not deferred anymore, but you get it
  221. dwd N+1) Ite, Meeting Est.
  222. dwd Thanks all.
  223. jonas’ thanks, dave
  224. Ge0rG thanks Dave
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  227. Kev I thought that was going to be easy to follow with just one trivial vote, and it ended up all over the place, so no idea what just happened.
  228. Ge0rG Sorry.
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  232. dwd Kev, Blame the chair.
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