Wednesday, December 05, 2018
council@muc.xmpp.org
December
Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
          1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31            
XMPP Council Room | https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation#council | Room logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ | https://trello.com/b/ww7zWMlI/xmpp-council-agenda

[00:33:25] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[00:36:13] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[00:36:15] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[00:45:52] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[00:45:54] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[03:10:14] *** Lance has joined the room
[03:10:14] *** Lance shows as "online"
[03:12:29] *** Lance has left the room
[03:37:11] *** Tobias has joined the room
[03:54:50] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[03:54:51] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[06:54:17] *** Tobias has left the room
[07:07:54] *** moparisthebest has left the room
[07:08:38] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[07:52:27] *** Kev shows as "online"
[08:01:12] *** Zash has joined the room
[08:08:51] *** Kev has left the room
[08:24:58] *** Tobias has joined the room
[08:26:00] *** Kev shows as "away"
[08:26:02] *** Kev shows as "away"
[08:37:58] *** Zash shows as "online"
[08:38:58] *** Kev has left the room
[08:48:07] *** Zash has left the room
[08:56:11] *** daniel has left the room
[08:56:14] *** daniel has joined the room
[08:58:59] *** daniel has left the room
[08:59:02] *** daniel has joined the room
[09:02:56] *** Zash shows as "online"
[09:02:57] *** Zash has left the room
[09:05:59] *** daniel has left the room
[09:06:02] *** daniel has joined the room
[09:09:15] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[09:09:16] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[09:09:21] *** daniel has left the room
[09:13:49] *** daniel has joined the room
[09:24:51] *** SouL shows as "online"
[09:35:29] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[09:35:29] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[09:59:31] *** Zash shows as "online"
[10:06:20] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:06:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:06:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:06:43] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:06:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:06:59] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:07:07] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:07:15] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:07:23] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:07:31] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:07:38] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:07:46] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:07:55] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:08:03] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:08:11] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:08:19] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:08:27] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:08:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:08:43] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:09:18] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:09:40] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[10:09:46] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[10:19:05] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[10:21:25] *** daniel has left the room
[10:32:06] *** daniel shows as "online"
[10:43:32] *** daniel has left the room
[10:43:36] *** daniel shows as "online"
[11:14:07] *** pep. has left the room
[11:14:12] *** pep. shows as "online"
[11:15:42] *** Link Mauve has joined the room
[11:15:53] *** Link Mauve has left the room
[11:16:55] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:16:56] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:19:43] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[11:20:07] *** Zash shows as "online"
[11:20:10] *** Link Mauve has joined the room
[11:20:33] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[11:20:39] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[11:21:51] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[11:21:52] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[11:22:58] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[11:23:15] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[11:23:16] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[11:27:06] *** Kev shows as "away"
[11:28:32] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[11:28:33] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[11:34:43] *** Zash has left the room
[11:36:12] *** Kev shows as "online"
[11:36:15] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[11:36:16] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[11:38:34] *** daniel has left the room
[11:43:07] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[11:43:09] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[12:06:21] *** Zash shows as "online"
[12:22:37] *** Zash has left the room
[12:25:17] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[12:25:48] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[12:33:25] *** Kev shows as "away"
[12:49:15] <jonas’> gentle reminder of our meeting today
[13:00:19] *** Kev shows as "online"
[13:01:01] <Kev> Yeah, I'll be in the middle of another meeting at the time, so will have to take my laptop in with me and stealth-Council.
[13:01:40] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[13:02:07] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[13:02:22] <jonas’> do that, we need a chair
[13:04:58] <Kev> If for some reason I'm not here, and the only person standing is Dave, +1 to Dave. If for some reason people want me to stand, +1 to me (but I don't see why).
[13:21:35] *** daniel shows as "online"
[13:58:45] *** pep. has left the room
[13:58:48] *** pep. shows as "online"
[14:06:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:16:54] *** Kev shows as "away"
[14:18:40] *** Kev shows as "online"
[14:21:06] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[14:22:13] *** Zash has left the room
[14:24:20] *** Syndace has left the room
[14:33:21] *** ralphm has left the room
[14:34:35] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[14:37:29] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[14:38:29] *** lnj has joined the room
[14:40:41] *** Zash has left the room
[14:42:55] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[14:43:33] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[14:52:11] *** Zash has joined the room
[14:54:32] *** Zash shows as "online"
[14:54:50] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:02:43] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:11:16] *** Zash has left the room
[15:11:24] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:11:25] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[15:14:10] *** Zash has left the room
[15:16:15] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:19:09] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:19:18] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:19:30] *** Syndace has joined the room
[15:24:49] *** Zash has left the room
[15:26:19] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[15:27:08] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[15:27:12] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[15:28:07] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[15:28:11] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[15:29:10] *** Ge0rG has joined the room
[15:29:15] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[15:36:54] *** Kev shows as "away"
[15:40:35] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:41:25] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:43:08] *** Zash has left the room
[15:43:45] *** Zash shows as "online"
[15:48:35] *** Kev shows as "online"
[15:49:21] <Ge0rG> So it looks like we have two half-candidates.
[15:53:55] <Kev> I'd prefer Dave.
[15:54:36] <Ge0rG> So it looks like we have 0.75 candidates.
[15:56:55] *** lnj has left the room
[15:57:02] *** lnj has joined the room
[15:59:36] *** dwd has joined the room
[15:59:37] *** dwd shows as "online"
[15:59:51] *** Zash has left the room
[15:59:55] *jonas’ summons dwd and Link Mauve
[16:00:00] <dwd> Yeah.
[16:00:08] <dwd> 1) Roll Call
[16:00:13] <dwd> Who do we have?
[16:00:13] *jonas’ is here
[16:00:19] <Kev> Here
[16:00:29] <dwd> Is that a whole Kev?
[16:00:41] *Ge0rG is here
[16:00:47] <Kev> I'm running a retro, but I'm here.
[16:01:10] <dwd> jonas’ and Link Mauve?
[16:01:20] <jonas’> here
[16:02:04] <dwd> Link Mauve?
[16:02:44] <jonas’> unfortunately, we also don’t have an opinion from Link Mauve on the chair issue from last week...
[16:02:58] <dwd> Sigh.
[16:02:59] <jonas’> maybe we can use the waiting time to discuss an Any-Other-Business point from me?
[16:03:05] <jonas’> I don’t think we need a formal decision
[16:03:14] <dwd> Sure, let's do that first while we wait for Link Mauve.
[16:03:19] <jonas’> about the Compliance Suites
[16:03:22] <jonas’> I agreed to do the next iteration
[16:03:42] <jonas’> I wonder, do we really want a XEP per year, or do we want to switch to a model where we have a single XEP which is versioned e.g. 2019.1.0
[16:04:06] <jonas’> I’d prefer the latter, because there is a canonical point where the most recent suites can be found
[16:04:19] <Kev> Versioned, from me.
[16:04:20] <jonas’> and one can still link to a specific version via the attic
[16:04:23] <Ge0rG> I think we had that discussion 1+epsilon years ago, and decided to go with new XEPs
[16:04:31] <dwd> Given the cost of a XEP, I think we should have a XEP a year. But we could ask iTeam to generate a stable URI or something.
[16:04:40] <Kev> Ah, I understood the question wrongly.
[16:04:46] <Kev> I'd do new XEPs, but versioned rather than yeared.
[16:04:55] <Ge0rG> XEP-2019
[16:04:55] <dwd> OIC.
[16:04:58] <jonas’> versioned rather than yeared, interesting
[16:05:05] <jonas’> but that’s weird to me
[16:05:10] <Ge0rG> Kev: what do you mean?
[16:05:16] <dwd> So we don't commit to having a new compliance suite per year?
[16:05:21] <Kev> Right.
[16:05:32] <dwd> But we still do them as a new XEP each time.
[16:05:33] <jonas’> I think that is very non-obvious
[16:05:43] <jonas’> to somebody who wants to look at the XEPs I mean
[16:06:00] <jonas’> with suite 2018, I know I’ll find at most 2019
[16:06:05] <Ge0rG> if there is no update to the list of XEPs, why not keep the number and change the year, or introduce a year-range?
[16:06:15] <jonas’> but if there’s a suite 23.1, how do I know whteher I need to look for 39.2 to find the newest? :/
[16:06:17] <Kev> People don't understand versioning of XEPs, but understand XEP numbers.
[16:06:17] <dwd> Ge0rGOh, +1.
[16:06:20] <jonas’> stable URI is an interesting idea, but, uh.
[16:06:31] <Zash> (floor) I'd think it be cool if council could draft something like a vision statement (what we want xmpp to be like in the near future), as complement to the compliance suite (what it should be like right now).
[16:06:45] <dwd> Yeah, I like the idea that we bounce up the year if we don't get a new suite out.
[16:06:48] <jonas’> Zash, +1
[16:06:52] <dwd> Zash, Also +1.
[16:07:13] <Ge0rG> XEP-0387: XMPP Compliance Suites 2017-2019
[16:07:20] <jonas’> hmm
[16:07:23] <jonas’> would be fine with me
[16:07:42] <jonas’> although I think this year brought some changes w.r.t. PEP which we should probably pick up, but I haven’t looked at '387 recently, so my memory might be fuzzy on what needs to be changed.
[16:07:42] <Ge0rG> jonas’: not with me. It's missing 0184
[16:07:53] <jonas’> Ge0rG, conceptually, not this specific instance.
[16:08:03] <jonas’> (and see above)
[16:08:28] <Ge0rG> Zash: with the usual position of council, it would be great if somebody from the floor submitted a proto-XEP of that vision statement
[16:08:38] <Ge0rG> though maybe XEP is not the right tool for the job.
[16:08:51] <jonas’> ah, that was also discussed in the suites discussion last year
[16:09:01] <jonas’> but I don’t think we have a better tool at the moment, do we?
[16:09:03] <Ge0rG> A header in the official XEP list? It should also have a prominent link to the current Compliance Suite
[16:09:18] <jonas’> the wiki may be... for the vision statement
[16:09:24] <jonas’> I don’t think the header above the list is a good one
[16:09:49] <Kev> So, what was the argument for using a year?
[16:10:03] <jonas’> for using a year in which context?
[16:10:12] <Ge0rG> Kev: so readers can estimate freshness
[16:10:13] *dwd wonders if Link Mauveis coming.
[16:10:16] <Kev> We were talking about bumping years if we didn't publish new things.
[16:10:21] <Kev> But I was wondering why we wanted a year at all.
[16:10:33] <dwd> Kev, SO we can show we're exciting and Now.
[16:10:37] <jonas’> yeah
[16:10:42] <jonas’> I think that’s really a bit important
[16:11:02] <jonas’> having something to point at where a recent year is prominently shown is surely important to folks
[16:11:17] <dwd> Yes, as do I.
[16:11:21] <Ge0rG> Also to have disambiguation from "Compliance Suite 2012" etc.
[16:11:29] <Kev> The publishing year is still ther.
[16:11:31] <Kev> +e
[16:11:36] <jonas’> Kev, it’s not prominently in the title though
[16:11:41] <dwd> Kev, True, but without the same impact.
[16:11:51] <jonas’> if it’s not shown in the Facebook preview snippet when you post a link, it’s not there ;-)
[16:11:56] <dwd> Kev, The Compliance suites were always mostly about a markteting device.
[16:12:15] <Ge0rG> The XSF is bad at marketing.
[16:12:31] <dwd> Ge0rG, This is also true.
[16:13:13] <dwd> Anyway, if someone could write up these thoughts for the list (assuming we don't capture them as minutes), I think it'd be interesting to hear from the community on this one.
[16:13:17] <dwd> Meanwhile:
[16:13:28] <dwd> 2) Election of a Chair.
[16:13:38] <Kev> Dave
[16:13:40] <jonas’> (considering the timing, I’d make a call and go with "make a new XEP for 2019")
[16:13:42] <jonas’> Dave
[16:13:59] <dwd> I suggest we open the vote, and let Link Mauvevote on list at this point. Usual rules apply - two week expiry etc. Though hopefully we don't need that...
[16:14:00] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[16:14:12] <jonas’> I agree.
[16:14:30] <dwd> Ge0rG, You voting now or on the list?
[16:14:40] <Ge0rG> Dave
[16:14:49] <Ge0rG> or is it "+Dave"?
[16:14:53] <dwd> I suppose I'd better stand now.
[16:15:09] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[16:15:36] <dwd> OK, four votes for me. Feel free to change your minds as usual until Link Mauve makes a final vote.
[16:16:36] <dwd> jonas’, Who do we have as Editors currently?
[16:16:46] <jonas’> doing actual git work? 99% me
[16:16:53] <jonas’> jcbrand does some good triaging on the repository
[16:17:09] <dwd> OK, so should we ask Board to find some more?
[16:17:14] <jonas’> doesn’t hurt
[16:17:16] <jonas’> bus factor and so on
[16:17:43] <Ge0rG> Are Guus and Sam still in the Editors team?
[16:17:50] <jonas’> Guus never was, I think?
[16:17:54] <jonas’> Sam is
[16:17:57] <jonas’> (and a bunch of other folks)
[16:18:10] <jonas’> https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/members.html
[16:18:24] <jonas’> I’ll make a PR against the data to update that page with new council
[16:18:25] <dwd> Sam nominally is, but I think he was caught up with Council last year. Ash, M&M, and co have all drifted off.
[16:18:28] <Ge0rG> Oh, sorry
[16:19:21] <dwd> jonas’, Any chance you could have a look through to see if anything's pending? Last Calls completed etc?
[16:19:31] <jonas’> dwd, will do
[16:19:37] <dwd> Thanks.
[16:19:42] <jonas’> there is a ProtoXEP in the queue, I hope to process the queue tomorrow
[16:19:54] <dwd> Any other any other business?
[16:20:40] <Ge0rG> I've had a deep look into Moved.
[16:20:48] <Ge0rG> If people are interested.
[16:20:53] <jonas’> (FYI: <https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/487>)
[16:20:54] <jonas’> Ge0rG, I am
[16:21:38] <Ge0rG> okay. Moved is a mess. It relies on presence subscribe / unsubscribe stanzas, which are ephemeral. To make it work reliably, you'd need to have something like a tombstone hosted on the old account,e.g. in PEP
[16:22:15] <Ge0rG> and then you could send <moved> payloads in messages to inform clients of the change.
[16:23:00] <jonas’> maybe we should stop trying to make this work without server support.
[16:23:09] <dwd> Well, that.
[16:23:11] <jonas’> at least on the moved-from server.
[16:23:20] <Ge0rG> there are multiple sub-tasks to accomplish:
1. let other people who want to add your old JID know that you moved
2. change all your friends' rosters to your new JID
3. inform all your friends' clients of the binding between old and new jid, so they can manipulate the chat history.
[16:23:31] <Ge0rG> manipulate = merge / show cross-links
[16:24:29] <dwd> Ge0rG, I am actually interested in this, but I'm also a bit busy - any chance we can continue afterward and/or on list?
[16:24:31] <Ge0rG> ideally, I wanted a way to make a partial move possible (i.e. only move a certain roster group to a new account), but that'll break with PEP tombstones
[16:24:38] <Ge0rG> dwd: yes
[16:24:47] <dwd> OK, thanks. QUickly then:
[16:24:55] <dwd> N) Next Meeting
[16:24:57] <jonas’> Ge0rG, interesting point
[16:25:08] <jonas’> but on list seems fine by me
[16:25:11] <dwd> I'll assume this time next week works for everyone?
[16:25:12] <Ge0rG> I've arrived at a point where fixing Moved wll be a full rewrite anyway. All that remains is the wire format.
[16:25:22] <jonas’> dwd, wfm
[16:25:23] <Ge0rG> +1W WFM
[16:25:31] <jonas’> Ge0rG, wfm; it’s experimental & deferred. go ahead.
[16:25:40] <jonas’> I prefer that over yet-another-duplicated-xep
[16:25:46] <jonas’> ok, it’s not deferred anymore, but you get it
[16:25:59] <dwd> N+1) Ite, Meeting Est.
[16:26:01] <dwd> Thanks all.
[16:26:07] <jonas’> thanks, dave
[16:26:30] <Ge0rG> thanks Dave
[16:30:25] *** Zash has left the room
[16:32:00] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[16:33:39] *** Zash has joined the room
[16:35:27] <Kev> I thought that was going to be easy to follow with just one trivial vote, and it ended up all over the place, so no idea what just happened.
[16:36:21] <Ge0rG> Sorry.
[16:37:40] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[16:37:56] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[16:46:47] *** Zash shows as "online"
[16:47:44] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[16:47:59] *** Kev shows as "away"
[16:51:31] *** Zash has left the room
[16:51:38] *** Zash shows as "online"
[17:03:32] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:05:46] *** Zash has left the room
[17:16:32] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[17:18:28] *** Kev shows as "online"
[17:35:01] *** Kev shows as "away"
[17:36:00] <dwd> Kev, Blame the chair.
[17:57:47] *** daniel has left the room
[17:57:51] *** daniel shows as "online"
[17:58:17] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "I'm away"
[18:01:30] *** Kev shows as "online"
[18:02:01] *** Kev has left the room
[18:07:15] *** dos has left the room
[18:09:34] *** dos shows as "online"
[18:21:02] *** dos has left the room
[18:21:29] *** dos shows as "online"
[18:25:12] *** dwd has left the room
[18:30:08] *** ralphm shows as "online"
[18:30:42] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[18:30:52] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[19:04:05] *** ralphm shows as "away" and his status message is " (Away as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:17:06] *** ralphm shows as "xa" and his status message is " (Not available as a result of being idle more than 15 min)"
[19:22:24] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[19:22:26] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[19:43:34] *** Zash shows as "online"
[19:43:37] *** Zash shows as "online"
[19:48:20] *** Zash has left the room
[20:10:51] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[20:10:52] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[20:13:54] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[20:16:21] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[20:16:23] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[20:33:34] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[20:33:35] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[20:36:53] *** daniel has left the room
[20:48:18] *** Zash shows as "online"
[20:48:25] *** Zash shows as "online"
[20:53:46] *** moparisthebest has joined the room
[21:10:48] *** lnj has left the room
[21:15:13] *** daniel shows as "online"
[21:24:46] *** vanitasvitae shows as "online"
[21:25:15] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[21:26:03] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[21:26:04] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room
[21:38:08] *** Zash has left the room
[21:44:47] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:44:54] *** Zash shows as "online"
[21:49:20] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[21:53:34] *** Holger shows as "online" and his status message is "I'm available"
[22:09:51] *** daniel has left the room
[22:20:50] *** Holger shows as "away" and his status message is "Auto-away (idle)"
[22:36:38] *** dos has left the room
[22:37:00] *** dos shows as "online"
[22:53:12] *** Zash has left the room
[22:57:20] *** vanitasvitae has left the room
[22:57:21] *** vanitasvitae has joined the room